Wanderer Vagabond
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Posts posted by Wanderer Vagabond
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Just been reading horror stories about boat sinkings in locks and I am flabbergasted to discover CRT provides no guidance or safety advice on operation of locks, bridges etc.
As a person relatively new to this world of narrow boating I am aware of a lack of prominence of info explaining or showing how to properly and safely take a boat through a lock.
I accept that I should go on a helmsmanship course but that will only partially cover whats required.
When I was working in big industry there were loads of safety videos on all sorts of eg fork lift trucks etc.
Surely this is something CRT should provide as it is their infrastructure that is employed and it would appear that most of these sinkings are often operator error. Not surprising if no proper specific guidance is provided.
Have I missed something somewhere or this a glaring big hole in CRT's info.
I think that the analogy you need to draw is to compare CRT with the Highways Authority (yes, I know some want them to be a housing authority but that's a whole different argument
). Something like 1700 people a year die on UK roads but the Highway Authority are generally pretty blameless since the onus is on you to make sure you have the necessary skills to use the roads. CRT supply the infrastructure and how you use it is up to you, much the same as the roads. If you go onto the roads without any training you would probably die fairly rapidly so pretty much everyone takes driving lessons. It is not however the Highway's Authority's job to teach you about driving. If CRT were daft enough to take on the responsibility for teaching you how to use the boats they would be subject to endless litigation since every time someone injured themselves they could sue CRT claiming that they hadn't been told that doing something daft could result in death or injury.Your comparison with industry is a bit false, the endless videos, presentations etc on safety isn't because they are all a good bunch of blokes caring about your welfare, it is to stop you suing the ar*e off them if you are injured. If you are being paid to do a job they have a responsibility to ensure that you are competent to do it and have suitable equipment. Since you are on the waterways by choice, for leisure, no-one has the same responsibility for you, you have to do it for yourself. If you were employed as a professional boatman by a carrying company they would probably have to give you all the training under the sun (so you couldn't sue them) but for a leisure pursuit the sound argument would be 'Well you don't have to do it'
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After I was cast adrift on the Rochdale while I was in the Rose of Lancaster, and had to cross by the lock above, and get through 2 barbed wire fences in the dark to retrieve the boat (which fortunately hadn't drifted down to below a security fence), I made up a Boat Retrieval Kit, consisting of a Sea Searcher magnet on a very long line which I could throw across onto the boat roof and pull it across. A small grappling hook would have been as good or better but I didn't have one.
I've carried this when off the boat one or two places where casting adrift has seemed a possibility and retrieval very difficult, but don't want to use it except in earnest as it would most likely at the very least do a bit of paint chipping in the process.
As a sort of variation on your idea, I'd tend to get a length of rope with a large 'monkey fist' knot tied in the end of it, large enough to jam in the T-bar at the front. As you say a Sea Searcher is likely to chip lumps out of your paint (assuming that sod's law doesn't come into play and you put it through one of the windows
) whereas a 'monkey fist' knot shouldn't do too much harm and it was designed for rope throwing. -
I never use the centre line when moored.
Apart from when on a lock landing while working the lock
Whilst being neutral about using the centre line, sometimes I will and sometimes I won't, I did have a bad experience mooring up on a lock mooring with it. I think it was at Hanham Lock coming back from Bristol and moored by the centre line whilst I operated the lock. The flow of water from the emptying lock pushed the boat backwards on the Lock Mooring and the centre line ripped off a poorly positioned ventilation mushroom from the roof (positioned slightly behind and to one side of the roof anchorage point for the line). I now have two lines from the anchorage point and tie up with one forward and one astern of the anchorage point to stop this happening again.
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Yes I think you are Probably right,
I got quite cross last year when a trip boat just rammed a loose boat out of the way rather than helping it, but when I tried to secure it I found it was moored with sticks rather than pins so I was sort of wasting my time. More seriously, according to facebook, a K&A boater has just reported another boater to the police for trespass for stepping onto their boat.
For now I will continue to secure loose boats, like I always close lock gates behind me, but sometimes I do wonder why!
.........Dave
I can very confidently state that the level of interest that he will generate in his local constabulary by such a report is absolutely zero, Aggravated Trespass they may have an interest in but then you have to be in contravention of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 and that is expressly related to trespass on land.
I think we have visited this load of old tosh about 'trespassing' on someone's boat before and the fact is that provided that you reasonably believe (even if that belief is mistaken) that you would have the owner's permission to trespass (to retie the boat) then you will commit no offence (Criminal or Civil). So carry on retying the boats
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I didn't think I'd need to point out the difference, my text related to narrow locks and obviously L&L has broad locks, where the technique is different for singlehanding.
I have to say that I just feel generally uncomfortable leaving a boat in drive without anyone on board to knock it out of gear if anything untoward happens. The sinking scenario was just the first thing that came to mind but others are equally valid. What would you do in a narrow lock if someone's dog (or even a person) fell in whilst you were operating it? You've obviously got to shut the paddles quickly but would there be any point if the dog is going to get 'blended' by the prop anyway? What happens should you fall in? I don't know how long your boat is but with my 60 footer I'd have to swim dangerously close to the back of the boat to get to a lock ladder and those props really can bite!
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Head in the sand attitude. Should the water level rise the centre line could hold the side of the boat down rolling it to the side. If your vents go under water your boat will sink. These thing are not poo poo'd out of hand there is usually a good reason why we do/don't do this stuff!
As I asked before, are there any documented cases of this actually having happened on a canal (rivers being a different risk) rather than just a potential risk? It does after all take a lot of effort to tilt a boat beyond 20 degrees which is what I'd need to put the exhaust/vents under water and if I were aboard I hope I'd notice that degree of cant.
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To sink via the rudder being caught in the bottom gates is incredibly unlucky, thinking about it...all these would need to occur:
- no rear fender
- boat actively going backwards in the lock
- boat being unattended
- rudder aligned with the gap in the gates
- gates left part open, or becoming part open, then closing with the inrush of water
- whoever operating the paddles, to do so without observing the boat
If singlehanding, the way I go up locks is to drive it in, then slow down/stop touching the cill (at the front, obviously), then leave it in idle forwards. The boat would be the opposite end of the lock from the bottom gates. If not singlehanding, then we'd keep the boat at the back of the lock but are well aware of catching the rudder and actively use the engine/gear controls to keep it a foot or two away from the back gate AND turn the tiller to not trap the rudder just in case. AND have a rear fender - which is a legal requirement.
Each to their own way of doing things, but I'm not sure if single-handing I'd be at all happy leaving the boat in gear at all in the locks going up. Currently on the Leeds/Liverpool and the potential disaster I could see with these locks would be as the lock filled and the bow of the boat moved towards the top gate as the cill disappears, it would be VERY easy for it to jam under the wooden panelling that is on the gate (with a helpful gap below presumably just for that purpose
) .If lucky it would just break the chains holding the button but if unlucky the bow itself would catch under the gate increasing the chance of sinking quite considerably.edited to add that I don't mind leaving it in gear going down with the button pushed up against the bottom gate (provided the gate has a smooth surface and nothing to catch the button on) since that keeps the stern away from the cill and in a broad lock will hold the boat to the side of the lock.
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Having had a look at the lifejacket on the tinternet the item you are talking about is the lifting becket and is presumably to hoist you out of the water back onto the boat (with a really strong man operating the boathook
). Probably more relevant to offshore use where they have winches and stuff to lift you out again. -
The trouble with advertising is that it slows down page loading massively, it is for that reason that I have stopped using AOL homepage, there are so many adverts loading when you log on that the whole process is so slow that the will to live just ebbs away
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In the case I am aware of (A classic Mini) the issue came to light when the thing simply wouldn't turn over, presumably due to the severe case of increased hydraulic pressure. I guess the fact a Classic Mini shares it's oil between the gear box and the engine didn't help either. Once it was drained, a flushing oil added as a (possibly unnecessary) precaution, fresh oil added it did restart.
Even moderately overfilling an engine with oil can cause problems with blown seals if you do manage to start it, which if it's not completely full it normally will. It's also not normally a good idea to have the crank spinning completely immersed in oil.
It is possible to get a minute or so heart stopping 'fun' if you do it with a diesel since that is how runaways happen, of course the 'fun' stops when something breaks (piston, con rod, etc). What makes it even more 'exciting' is the fact that even cutting off the fuel supply has no discernible effect once the runaway has started and the engine is running on the overflowed sump oil
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If you fancy a break in your trip to Bath, the pontoon moorings at Ferris Railway Bridge (Bridge 211) are very peaceful alongside the cycleway.
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Once read an interesting theory of seasickness which may or may not be true. The author suggested that the problem of the disconnect between what your eye is seeing and what your inner ear is telling the brain is one of the symptoms of being poisoned (I suppose you could call alcohol a poison and the effect is the same!). The brain becomes convinced the body has been poisoned and reverts to the usual means of trying to deal with it, ejecting the stomach contents. Seemed feasible to me
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Oh well par for the course, their office told us it was shut so we have organized a trip elsewhere, their loss not ours. Typical not on the ball crap CRT staff.
How is it 'their' loss? There is no charge for going up or down in the boat lift so it doesn't make much difference to them whether or not you go. On the other hand you have missed one of probably many opportunities to use a fascinating structure.
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Last night, I went to Halfords.
I almost feel that I should have opened with "Bless me Father, for I have sinned", and that I should now be saying my "Hail Marys"
I knew before I ventured there that once you remove the bit that sells bikes, and the bit that sells car audio systems and the camping section and (well you get the picture), there is very little of Halfords that actually concentrates upon what I vaguely hoped was its core business.
However, due to a busy day at work, I needed somewhere that would be open a little later, so I entered the unholy temple, and wandered over to the unloved back corner.
There, not quite arrayed in front of me, were a paltry few air filters, an unimpressive selection of oil filters, and really not much else.
I looked, and looked again, nowhere could I see the fan belt that I was looking for. In fact, more to the point, nowhere could I see any fan belts.
Clearly, coming shopping at 7pm after a long day at work had addled the brain, and I simply couldn't see for looking.
So, I enquired of the nearest employee "please could you direct me to the fan belts"
"We don't stock fan belts any more"
"That seems rather odd for a car spares shop"
"no call for them. if you give me your registration number, I can order one for tomorrow"
"I would like a 1050mm belt, Z section"
"We can't do that, we need the registration number"
"this isn't going to work"
"yes it will, our system knows every registration number"
"77774"
"I can't find that, what make and model is it"
"BMC 1.5"
"Can't find that, sorry"
Exit stage left without a fanbelt!
So, I will just go to a proper shop instead!
As an aside, can anybody confirm that Z section is the correct belt for a BMC 1.5?
It has a heavy duty alternator and is going through belts. Either they slip or you get it tight enough to not slip and it snaps a belt. My thoughts are that usung a XPZ or SPZ belt may offer better grip without getting it too tight, or that an A section belt may prove a bit more resistant to a bit more tension than a Z section
Reading your post I got a distinct sense of deja vu as it exactly mirrored my experience in Halfords. The only noticeable difference was that I was carrying the worn out Halfords drive belt from my boat! I have also received some pretty dumb 'advice' in their stores as well. Whilst in the Bath area I carried out an oil change on the boat however the local council will not allow you to go into their recycling centres unless you can prove residence in the area, living on a boat doesn't count as residence. Whilst in Halfords purchasing something else (a bike part, they do those!) I queried at the advice counter if they had any suggestions as to what I could do with waste oil to be told 'Tip it down the drain',to describe my reaction as flabbergasted rather understates it
.As far as replacement drive belts go however I went to the local branch of CES http://www.cesuk.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=6&id=6&Itemid=20 with the old drive belt and they supplied me with a correct replacement on the spot.
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Duplicate post
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OK. To administer a breath test in these circumstances IS illegal. "Consent" or otherwise is totally immaterial. Any evidence obtained is totally inadmissible by the prosecution although the defence could introduce it as evidence that the alleged "consent" was in fact duress as part of a defence discrediting whatever other evidence the prosecution may have offered.
If that were not the case, the courts would be full of cases where the police were claiming "consent", when in fact the "consent" was by virtue of ignorance on the part of the accused, or by deliberate lying about the "consent" by the police.
Do not forget either, that the breathalyser is only an initial screening device which must be followed up by further breath or blood tests which form the actual evidence. If a PC really cocked up, administered a positive breath test, arrested and brought to the police station, one would hope that an alert desk sergeant would dearrest PDQ, and try to smooth things over before the law suits started flying.
George ex nb Alton retired
Have to say I'm in total agreement with you re the breath test, utterly pointless since there is no legal limit (yet) on alcohol consumption on a boat being navigated for pleasure purposes on a canal. If drunkenness is considered to be an issue then the attending officer is still able to give evidence on the drunken state of the lady concerned since they don't breathalyse anyone arrested for being drunk and disorderly or drunk and incapable the conviction is based on the professional opinion of the officer. Since the drunkenness offence doesn't exist (yet) they would just be tilting at windmills.
Looking at the actual case I would suggest that making a big issue of the drunkenness may in fact undermine the more serious charge under Section 1(2)(b )of the Criminal Damage Act that they seem to be pursuing. If they are saying that she had the intent to endanger someone's life by causing Criminal Damage her barrister could counter this by claiming that she was so drunk that it was impossible for her to have any intent to do anything. They can then spend endless Court time discussing whether or not she was reckless in getting drunk before taking the helm (the second part of the definition) for which he will probably claim that a lot of people have been known to steer boats after having drunk alcohol without facing a reckless charge. I'll be interested to see what the final outcome is.
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Just out of curiosity, are there any recorded instances of a narrow boat being capsized by any use of mooring lines? I'm willing to accept that in extreme or flash flood conditions it may happen (has it?) but in average canal conditions how likely is it? By my reckoning you'd need to get the boat to lean to such a degree as to dislodge the ballast blocks in the bilge but, as with a sailing boat, above a given point it takes a lot more effort to make a boat lean any further until you reach the critical point of capsize. I'm not arguing either for or against using the centre line since I will moor however I think is appropriate I was just wondering.
Back in 2013 on the Market Harborough arm I passed a day boat full of drunks, 8 of whom were sitting on the roof (equates to just over half a ton) and whilst I would hardly describe it as safe the boat remained upright (although at something of a list
)I have never worked out the point in those devices, very odd.
Daniel
I think that they are often used on coastal marinas where it is possible to get a bit of a 'slop' on the mooring. The idea I believe is to take the snatch out of the rope as the boat rocks about. I could be wrong though!
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The friends have remembered this:
*Having spoken to my friends who borrowed the boat they say that they left the boat moored at Bunbury while they went for a wander and when they returned it was fairly evident that the boat had been walloped by someone - that could have been the cause I suppose.
They have assured me they didn't hit anything and I believe them.*
Just as a point of interest, if there is actual evidence of the boat being hit (or even if your friend remembered having caught a cill somewhere) it is likely that such damage would be covered by your boat insurance. Back in 2013 I caught my rudder on the cill at Watford Locks and bent the rudder arm, when I contacted the insurers they confirmed that I was covered for such damage. As it eventually turned out I managed to get it (properly) repaired for slightly less than the excess on the insurance (£250)so didn't actually submit a claim, but if it is necessary to get the boat out of the water, given the costs involved, (I repaired mine by getting in the canal to recover the rudder blade) an insurance claim may be worthwhile.
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I have, in the past, asked questions about fuel consumption as the 'figure' in the owners / workshop manuals are frightening. I know that the consumption will be proportional to the HP developed but have never really appreciated the huge difference between 'tick-over' & WOT.
On our NB with a Lister LPWS4 (which gives us 3.5mph at 2000 rpm with a 3:1 gearbox) we are using a 'tad' over 2 litres per hour - or about 1.6 miles per litre.
On our new boat with twin (120hp) Ford engines we are achieving 5-6mph at 1500 rpm for a consumption of a tad over 2 litres per hour per engine (say a total of 1 gallon per hour) - or about 1.2 / 1.3 miles per litre.
Assuming my maths is correct, I was surprised at the similarity in consumption of the two very different set-ups.
I found this 'link' very interesting and note that other manufacturers data (ie Volvo) is also on the same website - I wonder if such data is readily available for the common narrowboat engines ?
I'm interested in your fuel consumption with your Lister LPWS4. We have the LPW4 on a 60 foot nb and running at about 1600rpm (roughly 3mph) we are using between 0.8 and 1 litre per hour, you're not pulling a trawl net are you?
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Bristol to Reading ,Wendover Arm,Welford Arm,Market Harbourough Arm,Oxford to Hawkesbury Junction,Coventry to Fazeley Junction,Ashby Canal,Caldon Canal (both arms but couldn't get through Froghall tunnel
),Anglesey Basin,Norton Canes,Bradley Workshops,Engine Arm,Titford Pools,Hawne Basin,Autherley Junction to Ellesmere Port, Llangollen, (Preece Arm,Whitchurch Arm, Montgomery canal),Runcorn to Winsford and so far Runcorn to Leigh (by tomorrow)....there's no end to it really! -
I think CRT should also update their staff on the ground regarding the new licences. Having just gone through Anderton Boat Lift where they check on licences the staff member asked me where the licence was. I showed him the licences on display (one on the portside cratch window and one on the starboardside window, though both facing forwards!). He clearly hadn't seen these licences before and asked me what they were to which I replied, "The are just a couple that I've printed off", I suppose that did invite a bit of misunderstanding
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A regular problem I have with my engine is that the rod that connects the solenoid to the fuel cut off works loose (probably from vibration) putting itself out of alignment so that when the solenoid operates it cannot push the rod. This is on a Lister LPW4, I don't know what the Isuzu system is but would think it may be similar. All it needs on mine is to re-tighten the nut holding the rod on.
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We'll be bringing RUNE into Salthouse Dock next week (29th) and am looking forward to it. Will keep an eye on this thread for ideas of where to visit whilst there
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Plus you can take car back empty no charge for fuel.
I'm not sure I'd be happy with that, I'd rather take the car back with a tankfull. It is often a bit of a con job at airports when you hire cars that you get a full tank of fuel and are told to bring it back empty but they know that there will still be some fuel in the tank but the next hirer is still charged for a full tank. Even if you drain the tank down to 1/8th full it means that after 8 hires the company has charged for on additional full tank and multiplied throughout their business it becomes a good little earner.
). Something like 1700 people a year die on UK roads but the Highway Authority are generally pretty blameless since the onus is on you to make sure you have the necessary skills to use the roads. CRT supply the infrastructure and how you use it is up to you, much the same as the roads. If you go onto the roads without any training you would probably die fairly rapidly so pretty much everyone takes driving lessons. It is not however the Highway's Authority's job to teach you about driving. If CRT were daft enough to take on the responsibility for teaching you how to use the boats they would be subject to endless litigation since every time someone injured themselves they could sue CRT claiming that they hadn't been told that doing something daft could result in death or injury.
) whereas a 'monkey fist' knot shouldn't do too much harm and it was designed for rope throwing.
) .If lucky it would just break the chains holding the button but if unlucky the bow itself would catch under the gate increasing the chance of sinking quite considerably.
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),Anglesey Basin,Norton Canes,Bradley Workshops,Engine Arm,Titford Pools,Hawne Basin,Autherley Junction to Ellesmere Port, Llangollen, (Preece Arm,Whitchurch Arm, Montgomery canal),Runcorn to Winsford and so far Runcorn to Leigh (by tomorrow)....there's no end to it really!
T & M Lock 53 (Thurlwood) blocked - sunken boat
in Stoppages
Posted
Have to say that I'm in agreement with you in the use of ropes to control the boat in locks. I wouldn't say that it is particularly inefficient since I was converted to it on the South Oxford going through some of their quite narrow locks. My original technique was to nose the boat to top gate and hold it there in gear (with me aboard). Where that tended to go wrong was the initial inrush of water when the side paddles were lifted pushed the boat backwards and then the circulatory motion of the water in the lock would draw it forward again, often striking the top gate harder that I would like (even if the boat was put into hard astern). By using the centre line to pull the boat up against the top gate and securing it on a bollard, the initial inrush of water didn't move the boat backwards at all so there was no longer any impact with the gate caused by the circulation. Each to their own but it works for me.