Wanderer Vagabond
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Posts posted by Wanderer Vagabond
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23 hours ago, nicknorman said:
Just to clarify, there are impact drivers and then there are impact drivers. In my yoof I used to use an impact driver on Japanese bikes to remove the screws. Big screwdriver kind of thing you whacked with a hammer.. So I suspect that’s where you’re coming from. But one can also get cordless (electrical) impact drivers, same sort of thing they use in a garage to get wheel nuts on and off, but those are air powered of course. No hitting or axial force required.
The impact driver that I've got is of the 'big screwdriver' kind, it has a half inch square drive on it so sockets can be fitted but, as I found out to my cost, they have to be really good ones. Trying to free a very stiff wheel nut with it some time ago which even a long lever on the wheel brace wouldn't shift, failed when the impact driver was hit and the socket shattered!
Final update on the alternator, I think we've achieved about 97% success. When the engine was fired up this morning there was probably a second or even less of slip on the drive belt (compared with over 2 minutes beforehand). There is clearly something that makes a big draw on the engine alternator on start-up, the manual states that the manifold glowplug is a 345W unit plus a short burst on the starter motor I suppose is quite a biggish draw. The tacho doesn't completely freeze any more, but still takes about 3 or 4 seconds to become fully operational. As long as things stay like that, I can live with it.
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3 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:
Two grooves out of alignment is HUGE. No wonder it squealed. Out of alignment is more detrimental with polyvee belts than with v belts.
I would tend to agree, particularly as it's only a 4 v pulley, but it doesn't really explain why the squealing stopped as soon as the tacho became live (or alternatively the tacho became live soon as the squealing stopped
). With that sort of misalignment you would expect constant squealing until the belt wore out. It is nothing that I've done since replacement alternators have been like for like so the misalignment has been there since I've had the boat.
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8 hours ago, David Mack said:
You could use an allen key head for a socket set along with an extension bar.
I think you slightly misunderstand. The spindle has an allen key hole in it for you to hold is stationary whilst you tighten nut on the thread of the spindle. It cannot be done with a socket although it might be possible with a long allen key through the centre of a box spanner, my allen key ain't long enough
8 hours ago, nicknorman said:You can do up and undo these things with an impact driver, the inertia of the rotor means that a very short pulse of torque tightens/loosens before the spindle turns much. Something I learnt from Ed!
I never feel comfortable belting something with a bearing behind it with an impact driver, but I digress.Ed has been along today and we think we've cured the problem, but wont be sure for a few days yet. To run through the options, we found a very minor diesel leak (I say we since I saw it as I was taking the internal cover off the engine to give access to the alternator). That seems to be a bit of a red herring since there didn't seem to be any trace of diesel on the belt. Interestingly when Ed turned the pulley of the alternator, the belt was in fact slipping over the engine pulley which was a bit unexpected although since the belt has now been slipping for as long as I've been out I would guess the belt itself was shot. He has fitted a slightly larger pulley on the alternator but when he checked the v's of the pulley they were as clean as a whistle so it wasn't a 'crud in the pulley' issue. When checking the engine pulley there is a very slight dig in it, my guess is that someone (not me) has dropped something (nut, bolt) whilst the engine was running and it caught in the drive belt and passed through the pulley (other opinions are available). When checking the alignment of the pulleys it seems that they were about 2 v's out of alignment so he has removed the shim behind the pulley and a thinner one in to re-align the pulleys. When all that was done and we fired the engine up, there was no squealing, the real test comes in the morning since it has always been at it's worst on a cold engine. Fingers crossed and quietly hopeful
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On 19/09/2021 at 09:56, Tony1 said:
Wow, those trailers look great- the website says they're good for 90kg, which is more than most I've seen, although I can't imagine how you managed to tow that washing machine up any significant inclines. They are properly heavy.
In case I ever needed to carry a bulkier/heavier item, I got a Burley Travoy before I gave up my car. Its great if you need to fetch an emergency bag of coal or a gas bottle, or have a really heavy shopping load, but that trailer of yours is the best I think I've seen. Those look like QR wheels as well, so it can be stowed away easily in the cratch.
Yes they are indeed QR wheels and the whole thing folds flat, I store it under one of the boat seats when not in use.
There is a slightly comic story regarding that washing machine. The photo is on the embankment at Merry Hill, Birmingham and I'd bought the replacement washing machine from the Argos there and asked if they had a truck/trolley for me to take it up to the boat. On the grounds of 'Health and Safety' they declined so I had to put the bike and trailer together to carry it up the slope. That slope was a bit too steep to ride up so I ended up pushing it up the hill but it was just about doable. Getting rid of the scrap washing machine was more problematic though, have you ever tried going into a metal scrap yard on a bike and trailer? The first thing they want is a vehicle registration number for their records! After long negotiations they finally agreed to take the washing machine but would only pay by bank transfer (I just wanted rid of the machine) and for all of the faff they gave me about £3 for it
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6 hours ago, Eeyore said:
Is this one any use to you, it's 55mm dia. Located in Great Haywood.
I've arranged to see Ed of Four Counties Marine tomorrow, I'll see what that throws up.
I'll measure the pulley that I currently have on the alternator to see if that one will fit but just with a cursory look both of my alternators have 4 'v' belts whereas that looks like a 6 'v' pulley so first impressions would be that it will be too wide. If what we are looking at is the outside edge of the pulley I'm not sure how it would be fitted as I use a ring spanner to tighten the nut and an allen key to hold the spindle whilst tightening it. With that pulley I'm not sure how the ring spanner would fit into that depth. It cannot be tightened with a box spanner or socket because the spindle has to be held with an allen key and my allen key isn't long enough to go right through a box spanner.
If it looks as though it will work, after tomorrows discussion with Ed, I'll let you know.
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14 hours ago, TNLI said:
Are you using a bigger alternator than recommended for your engine ?? Assuming the belt has been adjusted correctly and it's not contaminated by oil, I would check the alternator pulley bearing, or an idler pulley bearing is not causing the problem. If you fit a bigger alternator it might need a bigger belt, or a different basic type. I don't know the Listers layout in terms of other pulleys, but they all need checking for increased resistance etc.
No, there is no point since the engine alternator only charges the starter battery. I may have upped the domestic alternator to 90A last time I changed it, but that isn't the one with the belt squeal.
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On 16/09/2021 at 22:00, MtB said:
I ride a Dahon Zero-G. A wonderful and near-perfect towpath bike that literally folds in half for easy insertion into a car or van. The only thing I had to add was mudguards.
Sadly long discontinued, but second hand examples occasionally pop up on ebay. I have two of 'em!
https://www.thebikelist.co.uk/dahon/zero-g-2006
Definite vote from me for the Zero-G as well, that is the bike I have used for the past 8 years and it was almost built for the towpath, shame it has been discontinued because it has been a real workhorse. I didn't bother with the mudguards since you will still get the muck and water thrown up from the front wheel, but reduced the muck from the back by fitting a pannier rack with twin panniers on it. Also have the capacity to fit one of these trailers on it (https://carryfreedom.com/the-y-portfolio/). The greatest load carried was a washing machine (to a scrap yard).
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Just now, ditchcrawler said:
This is a bad omen, one of my belts started squeaking today, I think its the domestic and a pig to tighten. Lets see what happens tomorrow.
I think now that we are getting slightly damper mornings with condensation it might impact on it. Have to say that both of mine are pigs to tighten accurately. It is a case of levering the alternator to approximately the right tension and then re-tighten the holding bolts. By comparison an old Peugeot diesel car I had, all you had to do was loosen the holding bolts and then alter the separate adjuster nut to get exactly the right tension, worked a treat.
Returning to an earlier post, rather than the suggestion that I'm not taking advice, from the advice given so far, the most promising suggestion in my opinion was the suggestion of the larger pulley on the alternator. This would serve two purposes it would drive the alternator marginally slower and give a greater contact area for driving the belt. I haven't been in a position to act on the suggestion because I haven't yet found my local 'alternator pulley replacement' shop
. Hopefully Ed will know of one.
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5 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:
Prestolite / Leece Neville have their own mobile engineers, I have the contact name and number if you need it.
I've already told Ed that I'll be back in contact with him when I get to Park Lane Services (assuming that they don't shut the whole of the Caldon Canal!). If he can't fix it I'll have another think.
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3 hours ago, jonathanA said:
Is it an lpsw4 or lpw4? The lpsw4 usually has a glow plug per cylinder rather than one of the manifold preheaters. Since you don't seem to want to follow any advice or help given here the I suggest you wait for Ed.
For the benefit of others the lpsw4 has a glowplug relay with timer in a little box bolted to the side of the engine.
I still think that explains the issues you are having and it seems Ed agrees, if as you implied you have never actually changed the slipping belt then its almost certainly knacked and I bet (as I and others have suggested) all the pulley grooves are full of crud too
It is an LPW4, not an LPSW4, and the heater element is in the inlet manifold. I haven't said that I have never changed the belt, I have said that since the latest increase in slippage I haven't changed the belt; since I've had the boat (8 years) I've changed the belt more than once and the alternator at least once. It was as a result of changing the belt and tightening it back in 2016 that I wrecked the water pump bearing, which is why I have the reluctance to go down that path again.
The last service I gave the boat (2 weeks ago) I looked at the pulleys and belt although I didn't take them off, and can say that the belt is in better shape than one I removed in the past, which had started to split, but still wasn't slipping to the degree that is currently occurring.
It isn't a case of '...not wanting to follow advice...' it is a case of changing the pulley or glowplug relay isn't just a case of popping into the nearest Halfords, so there isn't much point in me dismantling something that, even if it is the cause of the problem, I'm not going to be able to fix where I am. The place I've got replacement alternators from is Electrostart at Daventry and I know there is a guy at Sandbach who will repair them. The main dealer for Lister parts is either Sleeman and Hawken in Teignmouth, Devon or Marine Engine Supplies at Kenilworth, I'm on the outskirts of Stoke on Trent!!
If Ed can properly diagnose the problem and supply any necessary replacement parts it will be far easier than me trying to faff around on the internet sourcing them and then finding somewhere for them to be delivered to (and hoping that it is the cause of the problem). At the moment, once the start up squeal stops, everything is fine, whilst that remains the case I'll press on to see Ed, if something happens on the way (belt breaks, alternator fails,relay gives up, etc.) I'll have to deal with that when it happens.
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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:
WV - You keep adding information, now you confirm it's a twin alternator engine and it's the engine alternator that is playing up. Typically, it's the domestic alternator that does this sort of thing So as Brian implied and I tried to confirm, in that case the glow plug circuit should have no effect. It might on the engine alternator.
I also note that you assume we all know what engine you have in your boat, a very common mistake people make, on the whole we do not.
Anyway, I am also very interested in the outcome.
Not sure that I'm adding any information. On the first post I said it was a Lister LPW4 and on my 4th post I said,"... I had the domestic alternator fail coming through Peterborough last year and had to run on just the engine alternator to charge both banks of batteries....." which kind of suggests that there are two alternators
.
I too will be interested to see if/how Ed can fix it since it has gone of for far too long.
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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:
It would confirm that Ed is correct. If it does not, and like Brian, I suspect it won't unless you have a single alternator boat, then it proves it is something else.
Which doesn't really take me any further forward. I'm not sure Brian was actually saying that he didn't think it was the heater element, he seemed to be saying that it shouldn't load the domestics, which is absolutely right, they are two separate circuits. When the domestic alternator failed last year I put a 'jump' across the domestic - engine battery (and disabled the domestic alternator) so that the engine alternator would keep the domestic batteries charged until I was in a position to replace the domestic alternator, that REALLY made the drive belt squeal on start up, but once again it stopped after a few minutes.
3 minutes ago, adrianh said:Have you got the correct glow plug relay fitted ? They come with a post preheat power to glow plug on function also. This powers the glow plugs after the preheat light turns off for at set amount of time to ensure combustion. If you put a multimeter or lamp between the glow plug and earth you can see when they are powered. An excess time will add a lot of power demand to the charging circuit immediately after startup.
The rev counter is driven by voltage from the alternator winding so a slipping belt will show as low speed
The single glow plug is in the inlet manifold, I have no idea what the relay is, or what it should be so whether it is the correct one is above my pay grade. The tachometer doesn't show low speed, it 'freezes' until the belt stops squealing and then goes online and everything is hunky dory. It shows the revs that I'm travelling at and varies according to throttle setting as I'd expect. As I say, once the belt stops squealing on start up everything is fine, no warning lights are lit, the tachometer operates perfectly and to all intents and purposes there is no problem until you turn the ignition off when the whole process starts again.
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37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
You could just disconnect the feed to the glow plugs and insulate it so it can't short out.
As far as I'm aware there is only the one glow plug and its in the inlet manifold. With my level of knowledge on engine electrics, if I disconnect the heater element and that stops the belt slippage, then what? I still wouldn't have much of an idea what needs replacing, control box? heater element? ignition switch? along with the expected drive belt and possibly pulley. I can wait for Ed's assessment.
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7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:
Seems that Ed is on the ball and that the automatic preheater control box would be better disconnected to prove the point. It should only put the heaters on for a few seconds anyway so may well be faulty as well. Can you unplug it and see if the problem goes away? Your engine will start without it in the present climate.
I think I'll wait until Ed has a look at it, rather than poke around in an area outside of my expertise potentially creating more problems. I stick with advice I was once given which was,"Does the engine work?", "Yes", "Well don't b*gger with it then"
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5 hours ago, OldGoat said:
Late to this topic - but, but, but. I suggest leaving the engine at tickover - first time in the day will produce belt squeal for quite a few minites if the engine speed is low. My solution is to run the engine at 14 - 1500 rpm for a few minutes until the initial battery demand is satisfied. I also turn my Adverc off for the 24v domestics as well.
That is pretty much what I do, although I have no true idea what rpm the engine is running at since the tacho has frozen until the slippage stops. By ear I would guess that I'm running it at about 1000 rpm since all increasing the engine speed does is increase the slippage. None of this would explain why, once the slippage has stopped, if I turn off the ignition off and then turn it back on again without stopping the engine, the slippage starts up again. As Ed Shiers seems to suggest, it seems more likely that the problem is connected to the the engine heater elements than anything else. Hoping to get to see him sometime next week so we'll see what his view is once he's looked at the problem.
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18 hours ago, nicknorman said:
Ed Shiers, four counties marine. Not far away.
once he’s worked out what the problem is, do tell us, it’s intriguing!
I spoke with Ed Shiers this morning and the 'suspect' from him seems to be the starter heater element which he suggests might be staying for the period that the drive belt is slipping. Two minutes seems like a long time for the element to be on to me, but then it does tally with the experience since the belt slippage occurs whenever the ignition is turned off and then back on again, and when you switch the ignition on the heater element always comes on as well (he tells me it is on a timer). Additional to that, the lamp that shows the heater element is working obviously comes on brightly when starting but once the engine is running it never goes out completely although you can only see the extremely faint glow in darkened conditions.
Ed has also suggested changing the pulley on the alternator and I'm expecting to be changing the drive belt as well since, after this period of slippage, it is probably knackered. Since I'm heading off up the Caldon canal I've arranged to re-contact Ed either at Park Lane services or at the Leek terminus and he says he'll come and look at it.
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1 hour ago, Sir Nibble said:
This stinks of belt slip but with a poly vee at that tension? How wide is the belt? Any possibility it has a one way drive pulley letting go?
Belt routing?
Loose pulley nut?
That is essentially how I've been treating it over the years but am now coming round to the thinking that I've been wrong and there must be something else doing it. If it were simply belt slip I would expect it to occur at other times or just have a general low level of slip all the while the engine runs,but that doesn't seem to happen. Once the engine has fired up and the slipping stops, that is it, everything is fine and no matter what you try to do with the engine it doesn't slip again until the ignition is turned off. Once you do that, either by turning off the ignition without activating the stop solenoid (so essentially turning off then back on again with the engine still running) or by stopping the engine the belt slip happens once again, but only for about 20 - 30 seconds rather than the 2 minutes that it slips when the engine is first fired up.
The only potential confounding factor is that the boat was fitted with an Adverc back in 2013 soon after we got it. The domestic alternator (which the Adverc was supposed to be installed for) failed later that year and the replacement, installed by an RCR call-out who told me that for the alternator warranty to be valid he'd have to disconnect the Adverc, which he did (as far as I understand). The Adverc is still there but supposedly de-activated, as far as I am aware it was never connected to the engine alternator, but who knows? Whether that is b*ggering something up I don't know, and don't enough about boat electrics to even try to find out.
Since I have over the years replaced the alternator concerned and the drive belts (more than once) I had come to just accept what was a minor slippage (rarely more than 10 or 15 seconds on start up) as a simple inconvenience, but considerably preferable to over-tightening the belt and trashing the water pump bearing again. Now that the slippage has increased to over 2 minutes I am wondering if it is heading towards some sort of failure. I think I'll take the advice of Nicknorman and make contact with someone who has knowledge of boat electrics and see what he can turn up.
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48 minutes ago, nicknorman said:
Ed Shiers, four counties marine. Not far away.
once he’s worked out what the problem is, do tell us, it’s intriguing!
Thanks for that, looked him up and he is apparently in Leek, which is where we are heading so I'm going to give him a call.
Small correction to my last, the tacho doesn't zero when the ignition is turned off and the stop solenoid is activated, it zeros when the ignition is turned back on again before firing up, not that it solves my problem.
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6 hours ago, nicknorman said:
If the alternator stopped working I’d expect the tacho to fall to zero. If the alternator was slipping I’d expect the tacho to under-read, but that is not the same as “frozen” ie completely unresponsive to changes in rpm.
“Frozen” tacho implies loss of dc electrical power to the tacho so I’d suggest measuring the tacho 12v dc supply with a meter whilst the belt slipping/ tacho freeze is happening.
You don’t mention the type of alternator but with a 9 diode one, switching off the ignition once it’s running should have no effect. Since it does have an effect presumably it’s a 6 diode machine?
I’m struggling to invent a scenario that explains the behaviour but wondering if it’s something along the lines of a temporary (maybe partial) loss of battery supply to the panel and with that same supply being used as voltage sense. The low sense voltage could be forcing the alternator output to maximum and that maximum load causing the belt slip. So in addition to the above measurement of tacho supply voltage, I’d also measure the alternator output voltage at the B+ alternator terminal whilst the fault is happening.
I must say I'm beginning to wonder whether it may be time to invest in a professional diagnosis of the problem. It has been going on for a long time now and whilst the suggestions so far have all been good, it is the freezing of the tacho that has me baffled. As you say it sounds like a temporary loss of battery supply to the panel since the tacho freeze (and slipping belt) is exactly the same as happens if the ignition switch is turned off with the engine running without activating the stop solenoid, if the stop solenoid is activated the tacho returns to zero. I'm starting to think that this problem may be well above my pay grade, does anyone know of a good electrician? Currently in Stone, Staffs.
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5 minutes ago, Eeyore said:
Been there, done that. Had the same thing on an LPW3 in our previous boat. After much faffing about I concluded that the 4PK belt in combination with a small alternator pulley just didn’t play nicely together for a short while after start up due to the high demand on the alternator. The solution was to fit a slightly larger pulley to the alternator to increase the “wrap” and thereby increase the contact area between the belt and pulley.
That also sounds like a good idea since this slipping belt has been an issue for a long time. It was slipping way back in 2016 when I knackered the water pump bearing trying to tighten the belt to stop it slipping. It cost me 4 days in Pyrford Marina to change the water pump. How much bigger was the pulley that you fitted?
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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
If it's a poly V belt as BEngo suggest, then I can only think you need to clean the crankshaft and alternator pulleys. If it's an ordinary V belt you may have an incorrect pulley on the alternator and it could have been like that for years. You may have inadvertently been fitting the wrong profile belt. Get a new belt, twist it inside out and push it into the pulleys. Ensure the sides of the belt are a perfect match to the pulley, with both having the same angle. Ensure the belt sits well above the bottom of the pulley.
Do you have any enhanced charging kit like an alternator controller or A to B?
Its a multi/poly V belt so I'll give BEngo's suggestion a try. What threw me was the fact that although the tachometer is frozen, the alternator warning light remains unlit. When the domestic alternator failed last year I realised because there was no charge registering on the Victron meter and the warning light came on (albeit very dimly, only visible in reduced light) for the current issue with the engine alternator the warning light stays off no matter how dim the lighting.
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21 minutes ago, BEngo said:
When was the belt last changed, and were the pulley grooves cleaned at the same time? Multi rib/poly V belts are very sensitive to rubber build up in the groove roots- the belt then cannot wedge properly into the vees. Performance falls off and the belt wears quickly, and slips worse. It is a vicious circle leading to poor charging.
At and immediately after start up the alternator is working hardest because it has to replace the charge you just used to start up. The battery voltage is down after a heavy current discharge but the alternator wants it to be 14.4 V or so, and goes to full output. If all is not perfick, the bielt slips. Not enough to notice at first but it gets worse every time. The problem is made worse by the speed up nature of the alternator drive. That makes the alternator pulley the most heavily loaded part of the drive and gives it a poor belt-wrap to carry the load.
Since it and the water pump turn freely, I doubt there is much wrong with your alternator and what you have is just start up overload on the belt. This is common and some alternators (big beggars) have a soft start to prevent it.
The current belt will be past its best if it has been slipping on start for more than a few days. So, if the belt is not brand new, replace it and give both the drive pulley and the alternator pulley grooves a good clean with a wire brush, (or a tooth brush and carb cleaner) making sure you get to the bottom of the grooves and get all he old rubber off. Then tension the new belt in accordance with the Lister instructions.
It is also a good idea only to buy top- notch belts. Gates, Continental, Brammer are good names. Chinese cheapos are only any good for running a washing machine.
N
This sounds like it could be a likely cause, although the belt hasn't just been slipping for a few days, it has been slipping for months, it has just got worse since I came out this year back in July. Previously (like last year) it would slip for about 10 seconds or so on start up and then stop but I had the domestic alternator fail coming through Peterborough last year and had to run on just the engine alternator to charge both banks of batteries until I could get a replacement (with the domestic alternator disconnected and a jump lead across the engine - domestic batteries). That certainly made the drive belt squeal on start up! The spare belts I've got are all Gates so I'll give your suggestion a try.
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3 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:
Have you tried spinning the water pump and the alternator with the belt off. Do they spin freely?
Yes (both of them). The puzzle is that the alternator is obviously putting out charge because the warning light has gone out (I've had alternators fail in the past and the warning light always comes on), it is the tachometer that is the clue, it 'freezes' until the slipping belt stops, then operates normally.
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3 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:
What do you mean by 'as tight as you would like it to be'?
How much deflection is there on the longest run?
Somewhere about 4mm I would guess. Having made the mistake of tightening it beyond this once before and overloading the water pump bearing, I'm reluctant to make the same mistake again. Once the engine is running (after the initial slipping period) the belt doesn't slip any more.
Engine alternator issues.....any suggestions?
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted · Edited by Wanderer Vagabond
I don't know for certain whether it is, I turn the ignition key, the light showing the glowplug is operating comes on, it goes out and I fire up. My assumption was always that when the light went out the glowplug went off. I don't know numerically what the output of the engine alternator is when the slip occurs, but I would guess it must be high, the domestic alternator, according to the battery monitor puts out something like 55A on startup but the belt doesn't slip at all. The difference is obviously that the domestic alternator only has two pulleys on the belt so has 180 degree wraparound whereas the engine alternator has three pulleys on the belt (engine, alternator and water pump) so only has 120 degree wraparound. Add to that the fact that I'm less bothered about over-tensioning the domestic alternator belt since the only thing that might get wrecked is the alternator whereas on the engine alternator belt it would be the water pump bearing that would fail.
ETA Having given it some additional thought, I suppose that there is a possibility that, since the glowplug in the manifold is essentially heating static air, it may remain on after the warning light goes out so that the heated air is sucked into the cylinders over the hot coil for a short time when the starter motor is fired up. By comparison, diesel engines with the glowplug in the cylinder have a hot unit inside the cylinder itself. Not saying the idea is correct, but it is a possibility.