Radiomariner
-
Posts
1,386 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
3
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Gallery
Blogs
Store
Posts posted by Radiomariner
-
-
Here is the details of the declaration as promised. I had to convert it from a PDF file so the logo is missing, and line spacing slightly differs;Dear Customer,I am required under BSS procedures to obtain a declaration from you as the private owner of a “selfbuild“ (or “sailaway“) vessel that may become subject to the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCRs).Your boat will become subject to the RCRs if you sell it within the first five years of first use. If you build for your own use and don’t put your boat on the market within five years, it’s excluded from the scope of the RCRs. An information sheet containing further advice and information on self-build boat projects and CE marking is available from the BSS Office.I would appreciate your help by completing the vessel details box & declaration which I will hold in my personal files. The declaration will be kept confidential, however will be shared with Trading Standards officers in the event of any enquiry.Examiner name: ………………………………………………… BSS PIN: ……………………………… Address: ……………………………………………………………………………………………………….…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..………………………………………………………………………. Phone number: …………………….…Please complete the vessel details and owner declaration below and return the form to me.Vessel DetailsName of Vessel:Date First Used (i.e. the date the hull was first floated):Name of Hull Manufacturer:Navigation Authority Index/Registration No. (if allocated):Owner DeclarationI confirm that the following statements are true:1. I require a BSS Certificate in support of an application to permit navigation for the above named vessel.2. **The boat is not complete albeit that at least one system (i.e. gas or fuel or electrical) is complete.OR**The boat is complete in all respects.(** Delete as appropriate).3. I have no intention to place the above named vessel on the market within five years of the date first used.
Name of Owner: …..……………………………………………………………………………(Please print)
Signed: …….………………………………………………… Date: ……………………………………Well I never have, I had the first inspection before the boat was launched. I am one of those strange people who think a boat should be licensed before you start using it. another when it was just under 4 years old a third before it was 8 and next year it will be coming up to 12.
Ah, There you are then. The RCD did not come into existence until 1996 and was not fully implemented until quite a few years later………………
-
My twopenneth
My boat has no RCD the first owner sold it at one year old without one, I am reliably informed he has not been in her majestys custody for even one day. The second owner who I bought it off didnt give too hoots and when I bought it from them, a great boat i didnt give too hoots either, When or if the day comes that I want to sell it I will do so with ease to another purchaser who understands that the RCD is just another piece of Cowsdropping crap initiated by the Europeans. The RCD paperwork only proves that the boat comes with RCD paperwork and absolutely nowt else.
Tim
I agree it is crap, but still is incorporated into our legal system. To sell a non RCD compliant boat of less than fife years is illegal. Also, as I understand it is not just the seller but the buyer or anybody else that may collude in the sale can be in breach of the law.
This requirement is frequently flaunted because it's breach only becomes apparent at such times as a subsequent buyer complaining or a serious accident investigation.
As a buyer of say one boat I may be inclined to perhaps if I really wanted a particular boat, risk flaunting the law myself, but as an examiner visiting a few hundred boats I will most certainly make sure my ass is well and truly covered
-
Agree one hundred percent. I employ the examiner to examin my boat to ensure it complies with the BS requirements and to issue a certificate to confirm it does. IMO its sod all to do with the examiner, BSS CaRT or anyone else what I intend to do with my boat after that. If I decide to break the law and sell the boat how can the BS examiner be held in any way responsible, so why does he need to cover his arse?
I agree. Your intentions are sod all to do with the examiner, CART or anyone else, but that is not the point. It is currently against the law to sell a non RCD compliant boat that is less than five years old. There are loopholes some of which I believe, pin around the issue of the BSC. The declaration is designed to protect the examiners from consequences of such loopholes, and is incorporated into BSS checking procedures. The examiner keeps the signed declaration (I personally give a second copy to the owner) and it only comes to light should there be a dispute in which the examiner may become involved.
In the past I believe, a disgruntled buyer found that his "fairly new" boat was unsafe despite having a BSC.(There may have been injury involved) The lawyers honed in on the weakest link in the system (the easiest person to prosecute), which was the BSS examiner. As I explained earlier, the BSS examination is about MINIMUM and THIRD PARTY risks and does not cover a fraction of the RCD requirements. It was I understand a lengthy and costly affair. I don't know the full outcome other than the examiner was exonerated. To the examiners the result was a increase in insurance premiums, and the production of such a declaration, which helps to prevent a non RCD compliant boat being passed on before it is over five yeas old as well as protect the examiner if it does.
BTW all but one annex 3 boat owners have been quite willing to sign the declaration when it comes to the first BS examination. So also did the owner of the only new "own build" boat I examined.
I will post a copy of the declaration when I am able to
-
blackrose, on 15 Nov 2013 - 9:17 PM, said:
I really don't understand anything you've said here...
I was never asked to sign such a declaration by either of the BSS examiners that tested my boat during that 5 year period. Can you point me to any information about this declaration please? It's the first I've heard of it. Also, there must be plenty of sailaways less than 5 years old that aren't RCD compliant because the owner is still working towards full RCD compliance?
If a self fit-out boat is less than 5 years old and has an Annex 3 Declaration of conformity and a BSC it's perfectly legal. It just means that the owner isn't going down the RCD route - perfectly legal as long as he/she doesn't intend to sell it within 5 years.
blackrose, on 15 Nov 2013 - 9:17 PM, said:
Same here
I was referring in particular to Annex iii and self built boats. I apologise for not making that clear. It is perfectly legal to sell a Fully RCD Certificated boat at any time..
As far licensing such craft the Annex iii is only valid for one year. After that year, a BSS Examination would be required (if full RCD has not been achieved.) It is NOT OBVIOUS that the owner intends to keep the boat for five years to comply with the Directive requirements. Even when the intention is to do so, often there are problems, usually to do with money, but there are many other reasons {ie death) why the boat be sold before the five years has expired. In such a case advice from Trading Standards should be sought.
To cover their backsides examiners on advice from BSS, have a declaration form for the owner to sign declaring his intention to keep the boat for the required period. This is intended to protect the examiner, but it's existence when signed proves that the owner was aware of the Directive requirement.
Sadly, some examiners choose to ignore this. Last year I refused to examine a boat because the owner told me it was his intention to sell as soon as possible after getting the BSS Cert, he refused to sign the declaration. Sadly, only a day later he had another examiner who either took the risk or to whom the owner lied to and perhaps signed the document. My financial loss, but I sleep better.
I am not on my home computer at present I will add a copy of the declaration to this thread when I get a chance.
-
Hi All,
Very informative thread, below are the comments I received from the gentleman who owns the boat we are going to look at this Saturday, (just a couple of answers to a long list of questions I asked him before making the trip up north)
Do they "hold water" (sorry, bad pun)?
20)I can't find the boat safety certificate at home think it may be on the boat, they usually last for 5 yr, but in any case the boat will require a full safety certificate for a sale to take place, as the one I have is for self builders and not suitable for the purpose of sale. The cost of this would be down to me.
I thought a BSS was good for 4 years? but all the same is it correct that he (the owner/fitter) will be able to get the BSS (assuming the boat complies with the Safety requirements)?
21) licence runs out end of November but will be renewed for next 12 months and also has a CE number which will be stamped on the boat. Won't the CaRT licence need to be sorted out by us as I was under the impression that they are not transferable from seller to buyer? Have I misunderstood that?
Little more info.....the seller had the hull built at a boatyard as a sailaway for himself and his partner in 2010, finished the internal fit out himself being a qualified tradesman, along with the help of mates who were also "qualified sparkie & chippy" no idea who did the gas fittings at this point, but will be sure to find out. I believe the fit out was completed in 2011/2012, in time for the 2012 "season".
Does it "sound" like he's in a position to sell this boat legally?
Regards,
B~
The BSS is of 4 year duration. However, as a BSS examiner I am advised that when a boat of less than five years age does not have a full RCD (CE Marking], I should ask the owner to sign a declaration that he does not intend to sell the boat until it is 5 years old. I see a lot of 4 year old "sail aways" who happily sign such a declaration if they do not sign I do not do the BSS Examination. It covers my backside.
How can it be CE marked without an RCD registration
Legally it.can't.
Many modern boats do have the CE symbol with a number stamped on or plate attached to the fuel tank, and believe that is evidence of RCD compliance, it is not, it Means the tank only is compliant.
Also, self Regulating is a farce. Most builders do it properly by the book, others just fill in the forms and send them in to get the RCD documentation without the boat being anywhere near complient.
Yes, you can sell a boat without an RCD after 5 years I thought that was common knowledge?
Generally it happens because either someone didn't know the law when they bought the boat as a sailaway and then want to sell it, or because they planned to go down the BSS route but their circumstances changed and they now have to sell it.
I'm assuming that the boat does have a BSC? In which case the lack of an RCD has no implications for anyone's safety.
The whole idea of this 5 year period was to allow owners of sailaways to fit-out their own boat without having to CE mark the boat (according to the RCD), while at the same time preventing professional builders/fitters from circumventing the RCD rules. So self-fit owners don't have to CE mark their boat if they don't want to as long as they don't sell it within 5 years and get a BSC after the first year. After that they can just get BSCs every 4 years the same as everyone else.
Annex 3 Declaration of Conformity.
If the boat of less than five years is BSS compliant and is not registered as RCD compliant then the owner should have signed a declaration for the BSS examiner agreeing not to sell the boat before it was 5 years old. Agreed,the boat is safe (To minimum third party standards) but not legal. To the unwary the certificate may seem to "ok" the boat as being fully compliant to the RCD.(For instance the BSS does not check for stability, or the quality of materials used) thus undermining the market.. The vendor is not likely to tell the buyer that he has signed such a declaration!
All good advice in relation to this particular boat and vendor, but I'm not sure the legal position is correct.
The RCD is one of a host of EU regulations relating to the sale of manufactured products. As such I thought it only applied to goods when first placed on the EU market. So when a boat is first put on the market it must comply with the RCD, with the sole exception of a self-built boat which is more than 5 years old. It is the vendor (and not the purchaser) who is committing an offence if this is not the case. Any subsequent sale is outside the scope of the RCD, and so legal whether or not the boat complies (or ever complied) with the RCD. That's not to say you shouldn't be suspicious of a boat without paperwork - just that I don't think any law is necessarily being broken, and of course you may have more difficulty when you want to sell the boat on.
By the same token, if you approach the owner of a self-built boat less than 5 years old with an offer he can't refuse, then again the sale is legal, because the boat, although sold, was never "put on the EU market".
Not quite right. The EU lays down this 5 year issue. It more or less means that if you sell a boat that is under five years old it must be compliant to the state of build at the time of sale. The buyer should beware that the sale may be illegal and the possibility that the boat be taken away.
I believe the most common "legal" way around this issue when the boat is unfinished, is for the buyer/or seller declare him/herself as a boat builder or fitter and issue a new annex3. I am not sure but that may mean that a further five years may elapse before the next sale.
With regard to the last comment I think that if it came to light the authorities may be considered to be collusion to deceit.
There are plenty of people about who don't give a damn about whether a boat has RCD certification or not. A good boat is a good boat whatever the paperwork and some people just want to buy a good boat.
[rant]
All this RCD rubbish is the result of middle class home owners imposing their own home-buying expectations and standard onto the boat building industry. It needs ignoring BIG TIME.
[/rant]
MtB
I agree with your sentiment. Bad analogy though, the whole RCD is about importing and exporting boats. Not many house builders sell their completed houses abroad! However I do not see why class "D" boats designed for use on internal waterways could not be exempt unless they are intended to be sent abroad. However I fear that would generate a further load of regulation exemptions!!! (Exemptions from regulations often being more complex than the regulations themselves)
My heart agrees with mike the boilerman Nobody knows what the construction requirements are so its worse than useless. My guess is that builders build to the BSS, make some kind of basic manual, say it complies and label it as such. At least you can check the BSS,
My heart sympathises with Mike too. However, as a BSS examiner it would be improper of me to agree with anyone encouraging others to perhaps break any laws!
. -
Teademon is 100% correct.
The BSS is to check for a MINIMUM standard, not for a correctly fitted installation but for a SAFE EXISTING installation.
LPG test points may be necessary to install gas appliances to be efficient, but if a bubble tester is fitted (must be in the locker) a test point is not necessary for the BSS. (Many modern appliances have test points somewhere anyway).
I wish to also point out that the BSS examiner can only carry out a tightness test as part of a full examination. Not as an individual check.
Slightly
but on the subject of Minimum Standards,I would like to add that when an owner approaches me saying he expects his boat to fail but wants to know what he needs to do to get a certificate does not impress me very much as they are only interested in achieving the absolute minimum. There are some exceptions but this is usually evident on sighting the boat. My experience is that these boats nearly always fail first time and I usually leave uneasily unhappy about everything else after the minimum requirements have been met. Sometimes these boats are sold shortly afterwards. If I suspect this is the case it is now my intention to report anything outside of the BSS that I consider to be unsafe in the "Non Specific Comments" section. This will appear on the Report for new buyers to see.
Unless of course the owner amends the report before sale. (Illegal)
-
Would you drive your car home with the oil light on?
SWMBO has, frequently!
-
Bilge water level?
Simplest solution is buy another boat, I reckon
MtB
Carefully remove the red light, and put it somewhare safe. It works. Get rid of the boat, it might not be working properly!
I think you can safetly ignore coolant problems, however I seem to recall a little air cooled Hatz at a shoreside radio station I once worked at. (It was the small engine used to pump up a small air bottle which would air start a larger generator set) It used to have a red light on the panel when it overheated in hot weather (In the tropics). We used to leave running for five minutes after the light came on, because, if we stopped when it first came on there would not be enough air in the bottle for two attempts at starting the main generator, (a requirement). To stop and wait for it to cool down was not an option. To be honest, I did not know, (or at that time care) where the sensor for the light was or whether it was a standard fitting. There was another light I think was for oil pressure that I never saw lit up It was back in the 1960's) Sorry cant be more help
Just had a little flag up to say that three more replies have come in since I started typing this, Clever. never seen that before
-
-
As andrew says, Hose not suitable for LPG. Also too many components to make up one coupling. BSS exaqminers may not be happy.
I also can't understand why.
ETA
Yes I see why You fancy a bayonet connector and thats what you need to convert. Try and see if you can reduce the number of components. BSS examinar may not be happy
-
I was told once in the past....when changing gas bottles of any type, before fitting the regulator, open briefly the gas valve to blow out any dirt.
Bod
Yes, I can see benefit in that. Not only does it clear away any dirt or debris but also any small amount liquid gas that may have found its way into the cylinder valve while the cylinder was being handled. This could damage the regulator
-
Another way to use a lifebuoy.
Even when the person in the water is concious and able to help themself, It can be very difficult to pull a person out of the water into a boat especially when they have waterlogged clothing and your boat has a high freeboard. Push the lifebuoy emd on down under the water and hold or tie it there. Insruct the person in the water to use it as a ladder to step up on. It works I have twice lifted people out of the water this way.
As for the argument about taking wet clothes off. To do so would be stupid unless the person had been taken to a warm location first.
Water trapped in the clothing will be warmed slightly by the transferance of heat from the body. Chill factor as somebody mentioned is at this stage probably the greatest danger. Wrapping more blankets over the wet clothing immediatly will reduce the time exposed to chilling. Whereas undressing the person will probable prolong it. If the person is able, a warm (not hot) drink would be a great help in raising body temperature,
-
If appliances are connected to the system by a flexible hose, then they need an individual shut off valve in a readily accessible location (section 7.11), but not if they're connected by copper (or stainless steel, not that you see that very often) pipe. This is one area where the BSS requirements are different to the RCD requirements.
Teadaemon has it right. However all is not apparently clear to everyone. On A boat I examined the other week, in order to make the isolation valve accessable he had it fitted at the wrong end of the hose. The isolation valve is there as a precaution against damaged or deteriorating hose! However, in this case the boat passed it's BSS exam because there was only the one appliance and the valve on the bottle was labled as the main cut-off.
-
A little off subject. I could not help but notice in the photo that the boat named "Muddy Waters" had sank in very "Clear" water.
Dare I suggest it was in the wrong type of water?
On a more serious note the OP should consider his £1k loss as a blessing, It could have cost him a lot more later.I hope the experience has not deterred him from the boat ownership concept.
-
ju
First in carries on through and if a boat is in the tunnel and coming towards you, you wait until it emerges.
South travelling boat may not see a boat in the tunnel,
A few years ago when going North in Snarestone another boat going South entered when I was about 20 yards from the exit. There was much swearing and abuise from the other boat. I admit I did not have my tunnel light on, it was a bright sunny day and as I approached I could see through the tunnel to the exit before I entered. A while later on the way back I discovered that because of a curvature in the cut at the approach to the tunnel one has to be well over to the right hand side of the cut to see down the length of the tunnel. The other boat, entering the tunnel at an angle of about 45 degrees,(possibly having just left towpath mooring on the left of the cut) and looking toward the tunnel wall would have thought he was heading into a dark void, and, as he did, bump off the tunnel wall towards my boat even before he could see down the tunnel. Even if I did have my tunnel light on he would not have seen me. I never saw him (The steerer) until after the bump and the other boat had straightened out.
-
I bought a Cobra HH475. Bit over the top really but I liked it. Can link up with your phone via blue tooth. And it floats so if you drop it in the tidal Thames you can go back and get it.
Turning around to look for the dropped VHF could create in interesting scenario on the tidal Thames!
Many many boats and ships ( In maritime law we are classed as a ship ) have blind spots all around them. I would never turn the boat without a crew member checking either side for me before doing so. The problem here often is that pleasure boaters have no more idea than the man in the moon about our job. Keeping an " Adequate lookout " means just that, it has no bearing on the view of one man from one steering position. Next time you are parked in your car in a car park get a friend to stand about four feet out from the car on the offside just behind the front door pillar then look in your rearview mirror and your righthand mirror and you will not see them. This is known as the " Blind spot " many road accidents on dual carriageways and motorways are caused by idiots who check their main mirror and even their right hand mirror then pull out straight into a thing as big as a car that they have not even seen in their blind spot and that is in a car with nearly 360 deg visibility.
Try standing on the bridge of an oil tanker and see what view the Skipper gets.
Tim
Peep at my avatar and imagine what the Master sees from the bridge even when looking forward! A Narrowboat going the same direction 2 miles ahead would look like a bit of flotsam one mile ahead it is out of sight!
My views on the original subject.? As mentioned Colregs puts the responsibility on the overtaking vessel. Road traffic is similar, If a car crashes into your car from behind, it is inevitably the fault of the driver of the car behind. Of course, there are, in both cases exceptions to the rule.
-
Indeed it is.
However, within acedemic circles, only the post nominal letters of higher degrees are appended to the name. Using the post nominals of a first degree is considered very poor form indeed.
I didn't know that
I'll stop using BSc Hons. and just use MBA.Only resurrected as I am looking for a Boat Safety Examiner having not received a returned call from one I called on Friday. Perhaps he'll call tomorrow - but I'm now leaning towards Guy Holding, Rupert Smedley, or Peter Hopley.
Cheers,
Richard F. MBA
Oh! I think I'll go by OBE then. (Obese Boat Examiner)
-
The Titanic was never renamed!
ETA I had heard that you are supposed to sacrife a virgin when you rename your boat but as we moor close to Wolverhamton we had no chance of finding one
I take it therefore that lots of people in Wolverhampton chang their boat names, hence the lack of Virgins!
-
The bottom of the "V"of some springers hulls tend to wear a bit more because grounding, bottom scraping etc tend to be concentrated at that point. Something worth checking. If it needs overplating, it can be a bit more costly as the new plating has to be preformed. Some welders will replate using strips of plate welded together along the bottom of the "V". This puts the weld rather than the plate over the most worn/damaged area which in my opinion is not ideal.
-
There is a golden rule with narrow boating. When you foul up there will be thousands there to watch you. When it goes like a dream and you feel really chuffed with your skills there won't be a soul about. Honestly, it happens all the time.
Roger
Does it ever go like a dream? We have only your word for that!
-
I do from time to time scan the market prices to keep up with valuations. (Something I did for my surveying course). Earlier this year I calculated that sellers were asking an average of approximatly 9.5% to 12% above their value. The value of course being the price people are prepared to pay. My advice, for a first quote always make your first offer at least 16% below asking price and "haggle". However, If the boat is one you really want, try not to insult the vendor, it could be counter productive!
-
I was under the impression that the drain holes now had to be a measured distance from the waterline?
.
Yes, ten inches. However as a BSS requirement this only applies to commercial, hire and some timeshare boats.
If the hull piercing is less than ten inches above the waterline, (or below the waterline) the internal piping must be secure to a point at least 10 inches above the water line.
I do not recommend piercings below the water line as there then is a corrosion risk at a difficult to inspect point where a failure could be catastrophic
-
Cabin Shaft? Sounds like a lot of baloney to me. I've been involved with ships and boats all my life. Never heard of "Cabin Shaft". At my school the gig, whaler, lifeboat and some of the dinghies all had "boat hook" on their inventories. The same applied to all the lifeboats on the ships I sailed on, even the totally enclosed boats. (Though they were sometimes termed "Shaft with Hook")
Most of these did not have any cabin so the term "Cabin Shaft" for this item seems extremely unlikely. Now a "pole" is something I have only seen on Inland waterways probably the origin of the term "Barge Pole" (Which you wouldnt touch things with) but modern leisure craft owners do not call their boats barges. thus a simple "Pole" or "Shaft" is used and as these usually rest on the cabin top I can imagine the term "Cabin Shaft" coming about for that item
-
A "manual Bow-thruster"?
I have a short pole, about 9 feet with A Pommeled end for use in wide locks when the other boat takes too long. Anything much longer is difficult to handle in the confined space. Also have a long pole about 15 feet (Never used) and a shaft about 11ft with hook often used for stopping the gate on other side from swinging open or sometimes to push to stop it from closing. Handy. Also when in deep locks and for some reason a rope is required a quick turn around the hook to pass the rope up to SWMBO at the lock edge is better than clobbering some poor unwitting soul with a flying rope.!
.
but on the subject of Minimum Standards,
I'll stop using BSc Hons. and just use MBA.
RCD?
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted · Edited by Radiomariner