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Vixen2021

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Posts posted by Vixen2021

  1. 47 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

    Ok Vixen, that gives more to work on.

     

    Lack  of power despite injector overhaul and blue smoke tends to speak of worn pistons, rings and cylinders but there is no way a top overhaul will solve that but a compression test would rule such wear in or out. That sort of wear will also allow excess pressure in the rest of the engine and that tends to cause oil leaks so that is another thing that may confirm worn cylinders etc.  However, the breather system that is supposed to allow such pressure to escape may be blocked so needs checking. Unfortunately I don't know those specific engines so I can't help with where or how. I hope another member will be along to fill in that bit for you.

     

    For information only, a "top overhaul" normally relates to just the cylinder head and valves. Unless the wear is so great parts can not be reused there is no way I can see that getting to £2500. It sounds far more like an "I don't want the job price". If I had the kit and was local so travelling expenses were low I would do a compression test for maybe £100 at London prices. I think an hour of labour should be ample.

     

    The "one injector had not been firing for a long time" may well point to a cylinder with low compression but weather that is a valve (cylinder head) problem or pistons etc. I can't say remotely. The fact the engine shakes the boat about suggest it is misfiring and only running on one cylinder but again I can't tell if its valves or cylinders from here. If it is misfiring unburned fuel will be being pumped into the exhaust all the time the engine is running and that will also make smoke.

     

    Now the blue smoke ever since the engine was put into the boat. It is all a question of degree and under what conditions the smoke is worst. This gets a bit technical but I will try to explain. There are two types of  diesel engine. Direct injection given best fuel consumption and easy starting but tending to smoke at low speed or indirect injection that tend not to smoke at low speed but use more fuel at higher speeds and are less easy starters. I think yours is direct injection so I am not surprised it has always smoked a bit but I am surprised it starts easily and makes enough smoke to annoy flat dwellers. That degree of smoke again suggest cylinders etc unless you have the wrong dipstick and are overfilling it with oil.

     

    White and light grey smoke tends to happen when unburned fuel collects in the exhaust during starting and the vaporises off as the exhaust heats up. That normally clears after maybe 15 minutes of running at speed.

     

    Taking t all together I suspect your decision to replace the engine may be correct but I have suspicions about the advice/quotes. I would also want to check the valve clearances first.

     

     

     

     

    Thanks Tony, that’s v helpful and also matches what Mes Midlands said to me on the phone when I called them earlier. I am waiting for a quote from them on Monday to size up what option will be the most cost effective, but this would also mean getting the boat to Leighton Buzzard or more north, which is a bit of a trek with the engine smoking like it is.

     

    I suppose I fear going down the Petter refurbishment route and more problems arise afterwards. And then it seems like I’ve wasted a lot of money on nothing and also have to replace the engine after all. But I won’t know until I try. Depends on the quote they come back with tbh


    There is a local engineer near where I am at the moment that I’ve heard good things about. I suppose I could ask him to do a compression test, but he doesn't specialise in older engines.

  2. 2 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

    Bloody nimby - a good dose of noxious exhaust fumes and an incessant gentle roar from a nearby malfunctioning engine never spoilt anyone's evening...

     

    :banghead:

    Lol. I think he’s really disheartened to realise he has to share his £1 million flat that overlooks the canal with the boats that live on it!

  3. 1 hour ago, Mike Adams said:

    You haven't said much about the boat and it's value. If it's an old (not historic) boat it maybe not worth spending much money on refurbishing or changing your engine. If you can't do the work yourself your are likely to end up with a large bill one way or other from a boatyard. The Petter is an old engine and unless it is in a show engine room probably doesn't add much value to the boat when you resell it. Most old boats end up as CCers in London and the engine is the last thing people worry about as long as it works. Get a diesel engineer to look at the engine. If it is just worn it may go on for many years providing you maintain it. Remember it's bound to smoke and leak oil. I remember a young lady who ended up spending nearly 60K on a Springer, including changing the engine that was OK and ending up with a boat worth only 20K

     

    It's not an old historic boat. It's  45FT Hancock and Lane with Norsman Hull that was built in 1978. It is a CCer in London but the engine has not been working properly since I bought the boat... so I do worry about it! It has always emitted a cloud of smoke from the exhaust that changes in colour and intensity - blue, light grey or white - but mainly blue. I was recently reported to CRT by a landlubber whilst in Central London for 'gassing his flat' whilst running the engine to charge my batteries one evening, because of the blue smoke coming out of the exhaust. There is black residue collecting around the exhaust outlet on the boat exterior which I assume is from burning oil. When I top up my engine oil it disappears by the end of the day after cruising, because it is leaking oil from multiple places, including the air filter. There was also an issue with power - the boat would not increase speed despite the throttle in a high position, this has improved slightly with the injector refurbishment, and injector pump refurbishment, as one injector had not been firing for a long time. The lift pump has also been replaced as this was leaking heavily. The flooring around the engine is stained black from oil leaks over the past 42 years. The engine shakes the whole boat when running.

     

    I have had 4 marine engineers look at it now, all of which have high recommendations from other boaters. 2 of which said that the injectors should solve the problem and the engine might be worth keeping as Petters were good in their day - the injectors haven't solved the problem. The most recent engineer said he could do a compression test and the engine would most likely need a full 'top refurbishment' or words to that effect, but the cost of the compression test along with the work would be about £2.5k,  and so already I'm at the price of a refurbished newer engine model, minus installation fees. Finding the survey from 1999 was the last straw as this confirmed that the exhaust has emitted a blue smoke since the engine was first put in the boat. So if it has always had problems, is an old engine that doesn't add any value to the boat, why would I throw more money at it attempting to fix something that has never run well?

     

    Tbh I just want something that is reliable and runs without giving me a headache from the fumes and a lot of anxiety when cruising. The hull had high readings on it's last survey and the boat itself is sound, but I got the boat for a very low price through a family friend who was aware the engine was troublesome. So no 60k scenario here (fingers crossed)

     

    Any other details needed?

  4. Ok, thanks everyone for your thoughts so far.

     

    I’ll ditch the Vetus option, and then it seems like I have 2 routes to go down:

     

    1) Get my current PJ2W refurbished at a ‘proper’ Diesel engine refurbishment place (or perhaps swap with an already refurbished same model from Real Diesels or similar?) This route means I don’t have to worry about the change in torque or hp or cooling.

     

    Or

     

    2) Replace the Petter with a refurbished engine that has a good ‘flat torque’ and insist on a breakdown of its history that I can share here for additional thoughts, as you don’t know what you’re getting from a second hand refurbishment. I need to be aware of the increased rpm of more modern engines with my propellor size and gearbox. But I don’t have to be too fussed about the skin tank extension as many boats are undersized in this regard.

     

    There’s also a Beta Marine 30 being offered, which is 30hp @ 3600 rpm. Looking at the data sheet it looks like at 22hp it is 2000 rpm, so not too dissimilar from my current set up if I’m mainly cruising at 3 or 4 hp - have I got that right?!

     

    Although do the higher revs of the Beta mean I need to be more cautious about the skin tank size?

     

    I will look into the Petter refurbishment for cost quotes and see how it fairs.

     

    Thanks all!

    • Greenie 1
  5. 4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

    Your PJ2W produces (or should produce) 22hp at 2200 rpm. A Vetus M3.10 produces 22hp at 3000 rpm. So to get the same power as your current engine you will need to run at a higher engine speed i.e. noisier. You don't say what ratio gearbox comes with the Vetus, but if it is around 2:1 you will need a smaller prop to match the higher engine speed. In general that means lower efficiency, slower acceleration and poorer stopping ability. None of that will make for easier boating, or help on rivers.

    Makes sense. Thanks!

    6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

    There are people out there who would return that engine to you us new with a guarantee as opposed to something that the apprentices have practiced on 

    Where do I find these ‘people’ ?

  6. I don’t understand this, as an engine restorer will also be making money off of restoring the engine..?

     

    I have spoken to a highly praised and reputable mechanic who offered the option of doing a full refurbishment, but the cost would be the same as getting a more modern refurbished engine. As well as this, the parts for the PJ are getting harder to come by.

     

    And you misunderstand me - my original question was whether 22hp is appropriate for a 45ft boat. If it is appropriate, I save the added cost of the £2.5k it would cost to have the additional skin tank welding to suit an engine with a higher HP.

  7. No, multiple independent engineers have written the current engine off, and I found a survey from 1999 (boat is 1978) that said the exhaust has emitted a blue smoke ever since the engine was first put it the boat. It has caused me multiple problems despite refurbished injectors and fuel line replacements and so on, and so I think it’s time it went.

  8. Hello, my first ever post... here goes!

     

    I have a 45ft Narrowboat with a 2.1 gearbox and 17” prop that has a very smokey and very leaky Petter PJ2W (22.5hp at 2000 rpm) which I want to replace with a newer engine, as I no longer want to keep throwing money at something that isn’t improving.

     

    Ive been looking at the 30hp - 35hp size range for the replacement engine, but my skin tank would need extending for this, and this adds to the cost significantly due to the boat needing to be out of the water and the welding work done (an additional £2.5k) The sq ft of the current skin tank is 5.65 sq ft (tank measures 16” x 51” x 2”)

     

    Canal contracting - who I will be buying a refurbished engine from - have suggested a Vetus M3.10 which is 22hp, as an alternative option which keeps the existing skin tank only.

     

    Will this be enough power for my 45ft? I’ve seen that Canaline state that their 25 (22hp) is suitable for up to 45ft. But does this low go limit me from rivers and the Thames for example? I cruised last weekend to Rickmansworth from Cowley, and had trouble getting through a strong weir before Copper Mill lock. This could have been due to my engine being old, smokey and riddled with problems, but doesn’t make me feel confident about navigating a river with only 22hp.
     

    It’s  worth bearing in mind that this isn’t my forever boat - I plan on upgrading to a newer and larger boat in the next few years, so saving £2.5k would be very useful.

     

    Thoughts please :)

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