Bargebuilder
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Posts posted by Bargebuilder
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1 hour ago, rusty69 said:
And I thought narrowboats are fugly.
She looks prettier than a NB from the front, but then, even widebeam owners think their boats look nice. Beauty is in the eye...... and all that.
The aft cabin, although not pretty, makes extremely good use of space and having a centre cockpit gives a real feeling of safety in heavy seas because you are very well protected with much less chance of losing your footing and tumbling off the back.
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6 hours ago, blackrose said:
I had a Dometic 3 way fridge on my boat connected to gas until quite recently. It passed 4 separate BSS inspections over the years with different inspectors.
As usual on this forum most of the doomsters & gloomsters are people who have no firsthand experience that are just repeating things they may have heard.
But yours was an appliance installed before any change of regulations and as such would be exempt.
Will the BSS pass a piece of equipment that it's own manufacturer recommends should not be used on a boat?
My last BSS inspector refused to pass my boat because it's carbon monoxide detector didn't have a yacht symbol embossed on the back: he insisted that only CO detectors specifically recommended for use on boats were acceptable. I argued that the detector didn't know where it was and CO was the same wherever it was detected, but he refused to issue my certificate until I sent him a photo of a new detector with the symbol visible on it. I thought he might be wrong, but complied with his request.
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16 minutes ago, MtB said:
Thanks!
I see my post was confusing. By writing "just as you have done", I meant just as you have just changed my mind for me with your informed opinion as a user and owner:"
And yes I'll keep a weather eye open for a Classic 30 and probably buy one. Is "Classic" a brand name?
I understand Classic to be the brand. I have seen one other like mine but a handful of aft cockpit versions that are 26 feet long. Mine is a 1984, so I assume that they are all of a similar vintage. Alas, the manufacturer has disappeared and I don't know any more about them. Mine has a Vetus 20hp which is a Mitsubishi, but that is much younger than the boat. It's the weed hatch which sets them apart from the majority of GRP cruisers, but it's certainly handy.
They are tough little things. The picture is of us doing a short coastal hop. Any self respecting narrowboat wouldn't contemplate such conditions, but a GRP cruiser, with a brave skipper just might!
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7 minutes ago, cuthound said:
Possibly yes, but given that until the mid 90's the vast majority of boats that had fridges were of the 3 way type, running on gas, there were very few incidents (none that I recall) of boats exploding because the fridge pilot light ignited gas which had accumulated in the bilge.
However the point I was trying to make is that the manufacturers don't recommend fitting 3 way fridges into boats, because they have no control over the type of boat, so give blanket no fit advice.
These fridges need to be kept level plus or minus a few degrees, and a typical narrowboat will be more stable than a motorhome when both are underway.
The angle of the fridge is important to its operation, but I suspect it's the gas aspect that the BSS are concerned about.
Did the old fridges have flame failure devices? If not, an extinguished pilot light could allow quite an accumulation of gas in a bilge.
The BSS inspector would fail a gas system thats bubble detector bubbled the equivalent of the gas consumed by a fridge flame.
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Just now, magnetman said:
Yes, as I said, one of the techniques for retaining full control is to keep way when it's windy. It's not difficult; try it.
3 minutes ago, magnetman said:This is where the confusion lies.
No bias against GRP.
Implication being GRP cruisers handle poorly in windy conditions.
It handled very competently last summer when we cruised from Sharpness to Portishead under the Severn Bridge in 12mph head winds.
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1 minute ago, MtB said:
I'm perfectly capable of changing my opinion 180 degrees in a heartbeat when presented with information showing I'm wrong. Just as you have done in the thread since I posted that.
Hence my question, but your response leads me now to doubt that you have one.
I am not aware of changing my opinion at all: with an understanding of the characteristics of one's cruiser and a little practice, GRPs are easy to handle in all conditions, that I've experienced anyway.
If you have a genuine interest rather than just trying to goad a response, my cruiser is a 'Classic 30' centre cockpit. Similar to a 'Viking' but with an inboard engine.
I hope you have changed your opinion and perhaps one day try cruising in one.
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4 minutes ago, MtB said:
May I enquire exactly what GRP you have please?
I quite fancy getting one the same, given all the good stuff you've written about it.
Thanks!
Since you wrote this about GRP cruisers earlier in this thread, I don't think I'll bother humoring you:
"Price. Nothing else, if you are canal cruising. Bloody cold in winter, hard to fit good heating into."
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My mains fridge, when I first turn it on, drops from 21-23⁰C to it's working 4⁰C in about 15 minutes. I have a digital thermostat to control it so I can watch the temperature drop as I sit drinking tea.
Is it possible that your unit needs re-gassing?
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6 minutes ago, magnetman said:
A boat which can't be controlled during windy conditions is badly designed if it is intended to be used on waterways with a speed limit.
I have never come even close to losing control of my GRP cruiser, in any conditions. I have however seen many steel NBs get into a terrible mess. It's much more to do with the skipper than the vessel.
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6 minutes ago, cuthound said:
They allow 3 way fridges to be installed in motorhomes which I would have thought would move around far more than a typical narrowboat.
Is the reason not because of the little gas flame? Boats do allow the accumulation of butane in the bilge, whereas it can escape from motor homes quite easily.
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30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
My GRP cruiser weighed in at 11 tonnes on its last lift out. (The engines are about 500kg each)
At 5-6 knts there is barely a ripple behind her - very aquadynamically shaped - no great pile of water being pushed up by a blunt bow.
To make a slightly fairer comparison, I was only refering to GRPs with a beam of 6'10", hence the 2 tonne figure; possibly almost 3t for ones with an inboard diesel.
Moored boats surge backwards and forwards because passing boats move a volume of water out of the way as they pass. A GRP cruiser will move up to 3 cubic metres of water, a NB up to 18m³ and a broad-beam maybe 25m³ or more.
Those narrowboaters who accuse GRP cruisers of passing slightly faster than a narrowboat might at tick-over, should first look at their own moored boat to see if it is actually moving any more than it would if a slower NB went past; it probably isn't.
GRP cruisers often travel at the full 4mph allowed, because they can without being a nuisance; they do so without causing a wash damaging to the bank and they certainly shouldn't move a properly moored 18 tonne narrowboat. Of course they would if they passed at 6mph!
One thing is for certain, an 18 tonne narrowboat passing a moored GRP cruiser at 3mph will cause more surging movement than would a 3 tonne GRP cruiser passing an 18 tonne NB at 4mph.
It is much safer for all parties if a GRP cruiser doesn't slow down too much in windy conditions, because that's how they retain control.
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35 minutes ago, cuthound said:
The main advantage of a GRP boat over a steel narrowboat on a canal is the ability to charge past moored boat leaving a huge wash and not get shouted at...
It's certainly true to say that a grp only displaces 2 tonnes of water as it passes moored boats, whereas a large steel NB may displace 18 tonnes of water. It is therefore true that one can pass a moored boat in a grp cruiser faster than can a heavy NB without causing any surging, forwards and backwards of that moored boat.
Yet another reason why grp cruisers are not only better in many ways for their owners, but also potentially for other boat owners.
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As you continue on down the Nene it isn't much better in places. The problem there is blanket weed/algae streaming out in 20 foot long cords that are impossible to avoid and wrap around the propeller tightly, eventually covering it entirely and resulting in zero thrust. A burst of astern has no effect whatsoever, so regular visits to the weed hatch are unavoidable.
That was mid June, so they may have cleared it, or it might be even worse now.
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4 minutes ago, Blaster said:
I started this topic asking recommendations for a 12v fridge. I also explained why I stay away from 240v fridge running 24/7.
Just buy a 230v fridge and an 800w quasi inverter dedicated to it, plus a 12v thermostat and relay. The combined cost will be a fraction of the cost of a Shoreline 12v fridge, will be, in my experience more reliable and long lasting, and will also consume fewer Ahs over a 24hr period.
Yes, I have done both and couldn't have been more disappointed with the Shoreline product.
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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
In my view, the difference in electrical consumption between a 12V fridge and a quality mains fridge plus quality inverter is likely to be marginal and not worth worrying about.
I agree, but if every Ah is critical, such as over a period of gloomy midwinter days where you are reliant on PV, just wire up a dedicated inverter to only come on when the fridge calls for cooling. Doing it that way, there is no quiescent current loss to worry about.
You may have a big inverter to power other boat items and if it's quiescent demands are tolerable, then just use that as previously suggested.
If Amp hours are in very short supply and you are only using 'mains' for a TV and a phone charger, then just use a tiny inverter for those items to minimise the quiescence current loss and have a dedicated inverter for the fridge. I did this in order to avoid using a generator, preferring instead to rely 100% on solar power.
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2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:
They do seem to be able to regularly pick up job lots of second hand panels that have been replaced on commercial solar farms, or buildings. These look very good value and will still have decades of useful life in them.
I bought from Bimble 4 such used panels and they were in immaculate condition and have worked faultlessly and to specification for the last 9 years. I also bought from them the charge controller, but bought the cable, MC4s, isolators etc from eBay. It's a simple diy electrical job, but worth the few pounds to buy the correct MC4 cable crimpers.
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16 minutes ago, pete.i said:
Having owned both, 2 narrowboats and a GRP cruiser, I prefered the cruiser although all the disadvantages posted applied. It was nimbler, it was nicer to sit in and drive and the cabin was better although smaller than both my narrowboats. I wasn't a live aboard and I don't think I would have considered living on my cruiser. The cruiser was a lot cheaper to buy than both my narrowboats. As for windy conditions, I had problems with windy conditions with all my boats. If the wind took the cruiser when trying to moor up it was much easier to control than both my narrowboats as it was very much lighter.
I 100% agree.
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15 minutes ago, BEngo said:
Most items can be removed from the prop with a combination of a sharpened boat hook and some practice.
I'd check that this is possible before buying a grp without a hatch: with an aft cabin, there is no safe way to hang over the side anywhere near to the propeller to give a suitable angle of attack with a boat hook or similar. The only option for using a boat hook would be to use it from ashore and we have travelled many a river where shore access is impossible.
In the Nene this year we went through a stretch that was covered in thick blanket weed. After a few hundred yards the propeller had been turned into a green blanket weed football, with only the very tips of the blades visible. Even with a weed hatch and a very sharp serrated knife, it was a real struggle to clear the prop.
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Will they prioritise cargo carriers over cruise ships, some of which just enter through the initial locks, turn round and leave again through the same locks just to give passengers an interesting holiday?
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Other advantages associated with owning a narrow beam grp cruiser:
Having a 'v' profile hull shape, one can moor closer to shallow bank sides than you can with flat bottomed narrow boats. They also tend to draw less water, so getting stuck in shallow canals has never been a problem for us.
Grp cruisers are cheaper to buy: they waste no internal space on a forward 'well deck', this space being fully occupied by a huge double bed that any narrowboat would be jealous of. Our bed is more than 6 feet wide and more comfortable than any narrowboat 'double' bed that I have ever tried. In addition, the longer grp cruisers have centre cockpits and aft cabins, so there is no wasted space at the stern as there is with narrowboats. For this reason, in order to have the volume of internal space that you might find in a given size of grp cruiser, you would need to buy a considerably larger narrowboat. Just look inside a 30ft example of both if you doubt what I say.Narrowboaters often stand for hours, sometimes in the lashing rain, when cruising. With a grp cruiser, you can choose to sit all day in a comfortable, padded helm seat and shelter from inclement weather under your cockpit canopy. Such canopies lower easily when approaching low bridges.
Remember too, that a shorter boat is cheaper to licence and cheaper to moor and can often fit into that last available gap in a prime canalside location. Also, grp boats do not need to be hauled out and 'blacked' every 2-3 years, giving a huge maintenance saving as well. In the last seven years, annual maintenance for us has been engine oil and filters, fuel filter and antifreeze. I check the impeller annually but have only replaced it twice and I slapped some new paint on the deck last year. Average annual cost, far less than £100.I should also dispell the myth that grp boats should winter ashore; this is just not true. They are absolutely strong enough to survive severe winters afloat and their hulls certainly don't need to 'dry out'. If you do overwinter ashore, the cost of craning out and back is offset by only needing to licence the boat for half the year.
The steel hulls of narrowboats are prone to rusting, unless you use the best coatings and never scrape or scratch it off, eventually resulting in the need for patching or complete over-plating: a very expensive operation that is alien to owners of plastic boats.
The other serious problem with steel craft is that of electrolytic and cathodic erosion; the sometimes severe pitting that can dangerously compromise the integrity of metal hulls; steel, iron and even worse aluminium. Grp hulls suffer no such problems, although a small, inexpensive shaft anode will be need to protect their propeller which is likely to be made of bronze. An outboard will have an anode of it's own.
Osmosis is a minor condition that can occasionally affect grp hulls, but it is just a surface bubbling of the outer gel coat, does not make a boat leak, is not structural and has never caused any vessel to sink... unlike the rusting of steel hulls! Osmosis is liked by buyers of grp boats because it offers the opportunity to get a price reduction, but having bought the boat they rarely do anything about it!Grp cruisers also seem much roomier than steel narrow boats. This is partly because cruisers tend to have much larger windows, giving much better views from the saloon. Also, with centre cockpit cruisers, you aren't walking through one cabin to get to the next, so it doesn't feel like you are living in a corridor.
Should you want some day to cross The Wash or navigate the tidal Severn, the higher freeboard of grp cruisers and their ability to ride over waves rather than crash through them, taking water into the well deck, make them much more competent boats in lumpy waters than are NBs.
Having said all that, there are some features that are desirable in a grp cruiser.
If you intend to cruise any distance, you really want a diesel inboard engine: only diesel fuel is readily available at the canal side and you may have to walk miles to find a roadside petrol station if you have an outboard motor. Also, it would be dangerous and not permitted to carry large amounts of petrol on board.
Diesel engines are extremely fuel efficient: my 20hp Vetus diesel uses 0.5l per hour at canal cruising speeds in my 30ft cruiser, that's about a month's cheap cruising from my built-in tank. A NB might use double, triple or even more diesel than that.
If you buy a shaft drive diesel, then you MUST have a weed hatch above the propeller, as you will occasionally pick up rope or plastic or weed that will halt your progress, and without one you are stuck; unless you can swim!
For summer use, we wouldn't swap out grp cruiser for a steel narrowboat. It saved us a fortune to buy and continues to save us money every year to run, but I wouldn't live all year on it!-
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29 minutes ago, MtB said:
Price. Nothing else, if you are canal cruising. Bloody cold in winter, hard to fit good heating into.
If you are river cruising for holidays and leisure and like to venture into easturies and the sea , a big GRP works quite well but they are not cheap.
GRPs are certainly not best for winter cruising due to their often wonderfully large windows and lack of insulation, but it's inaccurate to say that they are difficult to heat, because usually the cabin volume is small and low output heaters cope very well indeed. I have a Taylors diesel heater with a 2kw output and zero 12v requirement, plus a Chinese Eberspacher knock-off that can almost instantly produce 2-5kw, and we are never cold.
37 minutes ago, blackrose said:it's not much fun being blown all over the river or canal on a gusty day in light GRP boat that won't hold its position in the water.
Dare I suggest that you don't regularly cruise in a grp cruiser. We have covered nearly 600 miles this summer alone, including on days with high winds, when we've hardly seen steel narrowboats moving at all. Yes, they are light weight, but they also usually have a 'v' shaped hull profile and a shallow full length keel, which actually grips the water surprisingly well. There is, as with all boat types, a technique for close quarters boat handling, but it's easy to pick up and losing control in windy conditions has never been a problem for us; ever! In addition, the power to weight ratio is usually much higher than with a steel NB and a GRP is much nimbler and able to change orientation and speed quickly in order to avoid a collision that would be impossible to avoid in a 70' long 18 tonne NB.
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Bimble solar are reliable and good value.
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Let's hope they don't insist on an elm replacement!
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I would look very seriously at Chemco RS 500P before you make your decision.
Narrow boat or....
in Boat Equipment
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All good points.
GRPs are a lot tougher than you might think: we have been hit in the side by a big NB, but at fairly low speed and no damage was done. So long as you are not sandwiched against an immovable object such as the canal side, GRPs are so light that they just move sideways in a collision. You do learn to choose your mooring position carefully and avoid bends where NBs with inexperienced skippers might lose control.
A professional skipper towing a dumb barge once lost control of his tow at Foxton Locks, which then hit us head on, but we just bounced off.
We prefer to travel through two way long tunnels late in the day when they are quiet out of preference, but we've done most of them now without any problems.
We always share wide locks with NBs where possible as they hold us nicely in place!
I've never seen a GRP that appears to have been damaged by a collision, but there is a tiny chance that it could happen.