Bargebuilder
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Posts posted by Bargebuilder
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15 minutes ago, nicknorman said:
I then got the Trojans, 4 1/2 years ago. They were just over £100 each for 4, 450AH vs 440AH for the leisures.
Hi Nick,
You recommendation does sound encouraging, but would you mind being a bit more specific, as I am looking at the Tayna battery website and I am struggling to find the model that you mention.
Are you talking about 4x 12v batteries that together add up to 450Ah at C20, making each 112.5 Ah each,
or 4x 6v batteries at 225Ah each at C20?
Thanks.
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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:1 hour ago, Murflynn said:
if you spend a fortune on anything you will always spend the next 10 years patting yourself on the back and telling people what a wise choice you made. it's human nature.
And their lies the truth of it. People buy something and whatever it is they refuse to accept its a mistake in many cases and kid themselves and others on that it was a good move often unintentionaly. Prime example of todays gimmicks are such as composting bogs ( unless used correctly ) I remember a few years ago looking at the Dometic ceramic bowled cassette bog it was expensive but I bought one and the cassettes leaked so I bought another and that leaked and the bog build was crap ( pardon the pun ) I persevered for about a month and then took it out at a total cost of near a grand if I recall and promptly skipped it looking as new. I suppose I could have argued the toss with the supplier or even sold it on as near new but hey ho I skipped it and replaced it with a Thetford. I did however put a thread on here telling all of the mistake I had made in purchasing it.
Often yes, but I have just been happy to reveal that my 10yr guarantee Rolls traction batteries which cost £2,800 possibly don't represent any better value than cheapie batteries.
I have also, within the last week, be extolling the virtues of my composting toilet that cost me just over £100 all in to build. It works brilliantly and so very much better than the smelly, blockage and breakdown prone macerator toilet that it replaced.
I am very happy to share both the successes and failures.
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As I am now approaching the end of the life of my £2,800 worth of Rolls batteries, I am coming round to the idea that buying cheap might be the better option for me.
Yes, I will need to replace them more often, but then I can lift the cheap batteries myself without the fear of personal injury: I needed to have the Rolls batteries lifted on board with a fork lift.
I know that people say that my very expensive Rolls batteries can be safely deep cycled, but in practice I don't, because they represent too high an investment to abuse.
Also, as has been already pointed out, one could spend a fortune on a long life battery bank and accidentally damage it early in its life: A failed battery charger or solar controller or even a problem with an automatic de-ionised water filler whilst you are away on holiday.
Another consideration is that battery technology is forging ahead quickly now, due to the push for electric cars. Perhaps investing in a system that will last for ten years is too long.
A number of my rich yachtie friends are keen on AGM batteries, not because of their performance so much, but more because they don't spill acid when their yacht heels over. All of the liveaboards that I know use wet cell, lead acid batteries.
Has anyone, anywhere done a real life comparison between battery types where each is subjected to the same regime of charging and discharging? I doubt it.
Cheap batteries will indeed last just months if badly abused, and expensive batteries may stand such abuse for longer, but if you look after your batteries, whatever their cost, perhaps the life expectancy is roughly proportional to the initial price.
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If the C&RT are not keen to have partially composted toilet waste deposited in with the other rubbish, then they can either provide a suitable container or attempt to police a ban.
Accepting that such waste is being produced and providing a suitable container for it might be preferable to driving those with the inclination to chuck it in the hedgerow.
If the C&RT are happy to have suitably bagged toilet matter put in their bins, then it might be better for the environment for them to say so.
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Pretty much nothing at all as they make it almost impossible to claim, however, they do give a means of comparison, even if it is a poor one.
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A very quick look found that a 120Ah AGM battery costs around £150, so 8 of them would cost £1200. This particular one has a 4yr warranty so the cost per year of warranty would be, guess what? £300, approximately the same as for cheap leisure wet batteries or top of the range wet deep cycle batteries as per my previous post.
Very approximately though, because there are so many variables.
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4 hours ago, rusty69 said:
How long did your Agm batteries last?
Or are you comparing cheap and expensive wet cell lead acid batteries?
My only experience is with Rolls 10yr guarantee lead acid wet cell at £2,800 for 1000Ah at 12v and a similar capacity in 'cheap' wet cell leisure batteries for nearer to £800.
Very roughly 4x the price for a battery that lasts 4x longer; in terms of warranty length anyway.
How would an AGM battery bank compare for a similar 1000Ah in terms of cost per year of warranty offered, if wet cell lead acids work out to about £300 per year, irrespective of whether you buy cheap ones or expensive ones?
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Cheap or expensive?
Everyone contributing has made good points, but although I have tried both routes, I'm still not sure which is best.
I currently use series 5000 Rolls lead acid deep cycle batteries which have a 10 year warranty; a market leading warranty I believe. These would cost today about £2800 to replace for roughly 1000Ah worth at 12v (C20). I could buy, as I have in the past, 8 x 130Ah cheapo leisure batteries for just £800ish.
I know I will get about two and a half years of use out of the cheap batteries if I don't run them down below a 50% charge (liveaboard use) and as my Rolls batteries approach the ten year mark, there is some sign of performance drop off.
I should say that whatever batteries I use, I don't abuse them, especially when they cost nearly three grand to replace.
One huge advantage with buying leisure batteries over Rolls batteries is that you can get them on board without pre-booking a hernia operation!
Over 10 years there really isn't much difference in the cost, and the 12 volt they deliver seems to work just as well.
In my opinion, if one ensures that the 'at rest' voltage of any battery bank doesn't drop below 12.2v (if it is a 12v battery), then the life you can expect is roughly proportional to the amount that you paid for the batteries in the first place. I am only talking about lead acid batteries as I have no experience of AGM or other variations.
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Just acting as Devil's advocate, if the problem of bags of partially composted toilet waste being deposited in C&RT bins is a real one, then maybe one day they will provide a receptacle especially designed for the purpose, in the same way as councils provide bins for raw dog poo.
Clearly, pump out stations will probably always be essential, but even after the initial infrastructure cost, the cost of ongoing maintenance, safety inspections, emergency breakdowns and sewage collections where tanks are involved must be huge.
Providing a plastic bin for partially/fully composted toilet waste would be simple and cheap, and 20Kg of dried out poo would equate to about 1 & 1/2 tonnes of sewage from a typical macerator toilet over 6 months.
We already know that local authorities insist that the preferred option for disposing of dessicated human poo is as part of the normal household waste collection, so the contents of these new 'poo bins' going to landfill, presumably wouldn't cause a problem.
Just maybe, the C&RT would actually prefer disposing of solid human waste over liquid sewage!
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I am right behind those satisfied users of the Airhead, but I have read through their list of 'advantages' over alternative composting set-ups, and to be honest, they seem a bit 'thin'.
The Airhead is no more or less a true composter than a £100 home made separator composter, with subsequent composting outside of the unit being necessary for an additional 2-4 months.
A nicely made diy composting loo such as can be seen at http://www.littlehouse.co/product-category/eco-loo/ in my opinion looks a lot nicer than the rather functional looking Airhead, with a saving of £800 plus. I do appreciate that some folks don't do diy of course.
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I've got one of the ones in your picture and I understand that the interior bladder is available as an accessory at a 'slightly' reduced price.
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Thanks rusty69,
I just found a pdf of the instructions, and they contradict the quote that I included above from their Web sit. The instructions that are included with the unit indicate that men can use the loo whilst standing up, but do warn of possible splashing.
The instructions also recommend the use of paper bowl liners for a clean 'flush', but I'm not sure what happens if one produces solids and liquids at the same sitting!
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Am I reading from the Airhead website incorrectly, or is yours a slightly different model?
It states "Request that men sit for every use, and point out the lever for making solid deposits disappear."
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19 minutes ago, adam1uk said:22 hours ago, BlueStringPudding said:
In fact I've just read a warning on one of the composting loo sites saying that marinas are complaining because rubbish disposal companies are getting bags of poo in skips that are designed for household waste.
You're mis-representing the warning. It was about people dumping it without even bagging it. It doesn't take a genius to work out that's wrong.
Surprisingly and distastefully, local authorities insist that such waste is put in with the general waste collection, double bagged of course, and it has been suggested that the PLA seem to be encouraging liveaboards on the tidal Thames to use composting loos and do that very thing. The following is a direct and unaltered quote:
Offensive waste is not hazardous and does not require specialist treatment or disposal. You can dispose of household offensive waste in your regular refuse waste collection.
Offensive waste can include:
human waste (faeces)
incontinence pads
catheter and stoma bags
nappies
sanitary waste
plasters (minor first aid or self-care) generated by personal use
animal hygiene wastes (animal bedding, dog faeces etc).
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Having a poor aim certainly would no longer be an issue!
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3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
Is this done through accurate aiming, or is it more scientific than that, particularly for the lady composters?
You have hit on one of the disadvantages. These toilets ensure sex equality, in that the gents have to sit down to use them, just like the ladies.
I understand that ladies have no problem with the design.
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3 hours ago, frahkn said:
I am considering a composting loo but I would not want one if the material is not composted or if I had to have more than two or three containers to ensure full composting.
Despite 6 pages of dialog, I am not a lot further forward. This is mainly because posters seem obsessed with how others deal with non composted waste rather than how to compost it.
How right you are.
When done properly, there are so many advantages with composting and yes, a few disadvantages as well.
Composting ones toilet is like any other composting, with poo being but one component. The moisture content needs to be controlled and there has to be a mix of fibrous organic additives such as sawdust, peat, straw, dry leaves or similar. The whole lot needs to be aerated by occasional mixing and temperature has a dramatic effect on production time.
Having said all that, it is very easy to do if you obey the rules, and done properly any smell is insignificant.
I don't bother with stirring during the collection stage, but I do ensure that no liquids enter the solids chamber and I do regularly add fairly generous layers of pet bedding (sawdust etc) after 'deposits' have been made.
With two of us, after about two months the bucket is about half full because the contents shrink through drying out as you are adding to it. Then you empty this 'collection bucket' into a maturing container that is rainproof but still has good ventilation. Build a box that fits your boats roof without inhibiting navigation.
Once in the maturing box, just ensure that it remains moist enough to keep the composting flora happy and give it a good mix every week or two.
In the Summer, three or four months in the maturing bin will produce a sweet smelling crumbly compost that is beneficial to the growth of plants, but it may need more than that in a cold winter.
You will have two maturing containers on deck from Spring to Autumn but when things slow down in the Winter, you will need a third. These only need to be about 50cm square and 15cm high and need look no more unsightly than a top box.
A separating composting toilet can be made, including separator, wooden seat, bucket, fan, ducting and a basic box to put it all in for around £100, so don't listen to either the enthusiasts or the doubters, try it for yourself.
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8 minutes ago, Jerra said:10 hours ago, frahkn said:
No, it's not.
If you do not believe something which you have genuinely experienced for yourself, but instead chose to believe something contrary to that experience, on the grounds that you have been told it is the case, you are sufficiently detached from reality to reasonably be described as insane.
So if every dog you have seen has 4 legs but you are told by somebody they have seen a dog with 3 you consider them insane?
To use your analogy, what I think frahkn said was:
If every dog you have seen has 4 legs and someone tells you that dogs have 3 legs and you believe them, you could be described as insane.
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21 minutes ago, Robbo said:
When I’m looking at a new product for something that I’ve not familiar with I research all reviews. Usually the 5 stars and 1 stars are bollock reviews.
That is an excellent point and I do exactly the same. I do check though, that the little box is ticked confirming that the reviewer is a confirmed buyer of the product.
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The most troublesome plastic, weed and bits of string tend to float, so is it possible that being an outboard, your propeller sits higher in the water than might a narrow boat prop making it more in the 'danger zone'.
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2 hours ago, BlueStringPudding said:
The waterways are well set up to cope with waste via porta potti, cassette toilet and various types of pump out loo. They're not set up to deal with bags of poo
I have been talking about genuine composting, but if you are concerned about dubious practice amongst some sectors of the boating community, this is the official local government line on the matter:
http://www.huntingdonshire.gov.uk/bins-waste/clinical-waste/
It is also interesting that, and I quote from a retailer of composting toilets called 'ecotoilets':
"The first batch of 12 Separett Villa toilets will shortly be delivered to them (houseboat owners) and this is just the start of what might become a tidal wave of ecotoilet installations along the river. (Thames)
We are now in discussion with the PLA (Port Of London Authority) about offering our toilets to all such boaters in order to avoid prosecutions and to clean up the river."
Are the PLA or the Environment Agency concerned about where the composted toilet waste is buried in central London, or is it possible that they might have asked the houseboat owners to put the 'compost' into their waste bins because they are determined to clean up the tidal Thames?
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3 minutes ago, frahkn said:
If you do not believe something which you have genuinely experienced for yourself, but instead chose to believe something contrary to that experience, on the grounds that you have been told it is the case, you are sufficiently detached from reality to reasonably be described as insane.
That was so elequently put, I have just deleted my own reply.
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I couldn't agree more, which is why I only talked about my experience, not that of others.
Having endured years of smells and blockages and breakdowns from my old flushing toilet, it is so nice to have discovered a system that just works without smells or fuss.
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44 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:
If you've never heard of these things then you need to join the Facebook groups dedicated to composting loos where people are showing photos of fly infestations and are desperate to get rid of them.
If flies were a problem, and I have never found them to be so, I would just seal the bucket early, put it out on deck and start a new one. The dead flies might even enhance the compost.
AGM Batteries vs. Cheap 'Leisure' Batteries
in Boat Equipment
Posted
Nick,
Glowing praise indeed, but you have more confidence in them than Trojan do, if their 12 month guarantee is a measure.
8 of them would cost about £1,000 and by way of comparison a bank with 10% more capacity from Rolls would cost £2,800, but would carry a 10yr guarantee.
I'm not suggesting that guarantee length is any measure of longevity, but with Rolls, for 3x the price you get 10x the guarantee period.