Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk
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Posts posted by Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk
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8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:
This thing about movable cookers being OK (required, even) to connect with a flexi but not a fixed oven, hob etc comes from the gas regs governing houses. I suspect Steve is a GSR bod too and has simply mixed up the regulations in his head. But being fair, if this boat is a liveaboard then GSIUR applies too. But not for the purposes of inspecting and issuing a BSS ticket.
There might be something in BS5482 part III or whatever it's called this week along similar lines, but BS5482 only applies to boats being submitted for RCD approval, as any fule kno.
I am GSR Yes. Marine only. Also BsS Examiner. RCD doesn’t exist and hasn’t for 2 years. Pd 54823 is applicable on all ‘existing’ craft. 10239 and 10322 are new craft for certification to ‘Recreational Craft Requirements’.
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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Maybe its another example of 'personal interpretation' of the BSS rules rather than just the 'application' of the rules.
The BSS do seem to have a problem in this area.
Read ECP 7.8.1. ‘ the requirement for inspection of pipework inspection is ‘where it can be seen’. ECP 7.9.1 considers ‘hoses’ which must be ‘accessible for inspection along their entire length’. I’m guessing you are not a BSS Examiner (certainly hope not)
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5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:
But it is perfectly possible to have a permanently installed oven, where it is connected by flexible pipe that is accessible for inspection.
5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:But it is perfectly possible to have a permanently installed oven, where it is connected by flexible pipe that is accessible for inspection.
Yes that is correct. Pipework in the photos looks like 5/16” so if the Isolation Tap is staying that would meet the requirements of the BSS . So long as it can be inspected.
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7 hours ago, Tessy said:
New LPG oven going in and I'd like to have some stuff changed with my copper piping. Can someone help me figure out whats going on with current installation. I have what looks like standard 15mm copper pipe that splits between the hob and the oven. After the split, pipe goes down to what looks like 10mm (though I never know how to measure these things properly). Ideally, I would like to replace the bottom pipe (going to the oven) after the isolation valve, with some sort of flexi hose, to enable smoother movement of the oven in future. Anyone able to advise on what hose is best and whether or not it could be connected straight to the lower isolation valve if I can ascertain the correct thread size, etc?
If the oven is going to be permanently installed (not on wheels and able to come out for cleaning) then it should be on Copper pipe. Flexible hose when installed must be fully accessible for inspection at the time of BSS. I know that may be inconvenient bu it complies with Regs and BSS Requirements.
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On 29/06/2011 at 13:33, Mike the Boilerman said:
Unfortunately finding a Gas Safe Registered installer is only half the story. The vast majority of Gas Safe Registered installers are neither competent nor qualified to install LPG anywhere, let alone in a boat.
Few members of the public realise it but there is a hierarchy to Gas safe Registration. The basic exam ("Core Gas Safety") qualifies a person to be Gas Safe Registered but they are still not qualified to actually install anything. Once they have Core Gas Safety they may proceed to take exams for any or all of the different classes of gas appliance e.g. cookers, boilers, tumble dryers, warm air units, meters etc using natural gas.
Then they may take a complex and time-consuming conversion course to learn all the different issues for the same work but with LPG (tank installation, UPSO and OPSO valves etc). Then yet another to fit LPG in caravans, and another in boats. This means any random GSR bod may easily not be actually qualified for the work you are asking them to do, and it is why there are so few boat LPG bods around. Each extra exam costs a few hundred quid, as does the training to take it, all for work in a rapidly diminishing size of market as the specialisation increases. I only did the boat LPG as I was already LPG and I had a boat. It certainly was not a good commercial proposition.
So, even the majority of Gas Safe Installers who are LPG are still not competent to work on boats. Some of the worst boat installations I have ever seen have been done by ordinary NG GSR bods employed in good faith by boat owners as they were GSR, and arrogant enough to think that boat gas can't be much different from house gas. Sadly so very wrong. I've seen boats piped up in 15mm rigid copper with joints everywhere and a natural gas flexible connecting the cooker. NOTHING recoverable and ALL having to be replaced. Such a shame for the boater who thought they were doing the right thing getting a GSR bod in.
Whoever you use, as to see their ID card. We all carry a GSR ID card. On the back is a list of qualifications we have. Mine shows for example that I am qualified to fit LPG in both boats AND caravans. Amusingly I see I am not qualified to fit natural gas in boats or caravans though, dammit
The only regular posters here who are GSR for boats are me, NBMike and Hampsterfan IIRC. Anyone else, put your hand up please!
Cheers, Mike
Just adding to the request for a hands up! I am Gas Safe Registered for LPG installations and repairs on boats (Not caravans or LAV) and a Boat Safety Scheme Examiner too.
I don’t post much on here because of some of the ‘clever’ comments you get from ‘educated do Goode’s ’ But I am happy to advise anyone on a Gas or Boat safety issue.
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Title: The Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure – Edition 7.1 Date Revised: 10th December 2015
thought you said you were a gas Safe Registered Engineer with the same qualifications as me.
If you are, log in to GSR and look up TB001
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Absolutely not. I would not do that.
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Hi MIke, thanks for your input. I was correct, it stands for Gas Installations Unsafe Situations Procedures. Also known as L56
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17 minutes ago, Bod said:
Could you give a link to these bubble tester alternatives please.
My boat doesn't have a bubble tester, for access reasons, so a different form of tester, could be very handy.
Bod
Hi Bod.
There are are lots of different ones on the market. Simplest is available from Midland Chandlers and you simply take your gas pigtail out of the Cylinder and screw the gauge onto the end of the pigtail.
Then put the gauge into the Cylinder outlet, tighten up the pigtail and gauge and turn the gas on. The gauge will register pressure. Now turn the Cylinder off and if you have a leak the pressure on the gauge will reduce to zero (depending on the severity of any leak it can be slow or fast).
Cheap and unsophisticated compared to an Alde Leak Detector but they do the job. Of course if you have a leak indicated call a gas engineer to check your system out.
4 minutes ago, matty40s said:How long have you been on the visitor moorings on the Ellesmere branch??
That depends. When did they move the marina I'm moored in?
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Not a very good one by the sound of you!
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11 minutes ago, Athy said:
Yes, indeed you did, and I did not understand it then either. Could you please clarify what you mean by this statement?
9 minutes ago, Jon12345 said:Time served City and Guilds/NVQ apprenticeship or a 1 week course?
Time served? Yes, CGLI? Yes in All my practicing disciplines which are not restricted to gas alone! Apprenticeship? Yes (the 4 year one).
18 minutes ago, Dylan said:Worse than mine.
That's cos I'm welshWelsh
And I have a stammer
15 minutes ago, Athy said:Yes, indeed you did, and I did not understand it then either. Could you please clarify what you mean by this statement?
General engineering appreciation of someone who is not qualified who thinks they can tell the qualified engineer where he is wrong.
Most dangerous situations are created by one.
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6 minutes ago, Dylan said:
Right or wrong, no need for attitude man.
Read the thread, I didn't start it.
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So long as you are walking away dealing how clever you are it was all worth it!
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Ahh. Well there you go! The expert amateur shoots his other foot off.
As as much as I like this sort of sport, it gets rather tiresome after a while.
Education ....... The GI(US)P also known in the trade by Bona Fide Gas Engineers (which you aren't) as L56, is the Gas Installation (Unsafe Situations) Procedures.
That is what Gas Engineers are guided by when we come to a boat that has been 'cobbled together' by a well meaning expert amateur when we Disconnect the supply, issue a warning notice, if necessary report the issue to the HSE and then walk away, content in the knowledge that we have strengthened the gene pool by prolonging its population by one (at least) amateur expert to help all us qualified guys out!
Done with you now, only to offer one last bit of advice (which you are bound to ignore).......
Never, ever, enter into a battle of wits with someone when you are so obviously half armed!
you will get that in a bit
TTFN!
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Familiar with eh???? Have to tried GI(US)P?
look it up.
Only get smoke screens after fires.
I refer to my earier statements
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3 hours ago, nicknorman said:
What you say is simply not true, and I for one resent you coming on here spreading false information, presumably in an attempt to drum up business for yourself. Clearly the Bubble tester should be suitable for the max load and an inadequate one giving excessive pressure drop would be a BSS fail. That is not in doubt.
However you go on to say that a bubble tester correctly installed by the owner would nevertheless invalidate the BSS and hence insurance. This is simply not true. Please get your facts right before posting misleading stuff and using your qualification to attempt to make your view seem more valid. You clearly don't know what you are talking about and thus are off my BSS inspector list.
Well I just examine them and have provided the wording on Page 3 of the certificate.
For the record, I don't need a bubble Tester in any vessel to test the gas as I am a qualified Gas Safe Registered Engineer. Are you?
As for drumming up business, I don't want it, in fact, if all of the clever people giving advice on here like you actually knew anything or took the time to read the standards, you would find that BS10239 mandates the installation of 'a simple means for the user to test the system for leakage' which is not necessarily a bubble Tester.
The only BSS examiners actively promoting the installation of Bubble Testers are those few who wish to force people into buying somethingwho do not hold GSR or ACS qualification in LPG who want to continue testing liveaboard boats (which they are prohibited from doing unless a Bubble Tester is installed).
There are cheaper, simpler, idiot proof options available that can be fitted by anyone (such as a gas gauge) without affecting the validity of their BSS certificate! Have you been promoting or advising those? Probably not because you are a practicing 'Non Gas Safe Registered, Non ACS trained, Non CCLP1-B 'expert' who is actively helping good people do dangerous things with absolutely no compunction of your own liability!
as I stated earlier, you can't design out an idiot!
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I can assure you that every BSS records the use of either a manometer or bubble Tester by the examiner.
Having been involved in a number of investigations in the past I can assure you that no stone is left unturned by the MAIB or HSE and whosoever is responsible for the incident/accident would be prosecuted by the authorities.
If an examiner is responsible we are all insured for PI.
Most people undertaking DIY generally don't!
The risk is theirs.
If in doubt, seek the advice of a professional, after all, advice is free and could save a life.
2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:So that's a "no" then!
Well it's true what they say, you can't design out an idiot!
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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:
Could you please post a link to the relvant BSS document that confirms this claim.
Thank you.The third page of a bss certificate states this.
About the BSS Certificate
The BSS Examination Report (inc. receipt-style BSS Certificate)
From April 2013 -
This document reports the findings of your boat's BSS Examination which is to satisfy the question: 'Does your boat meet all the applicable navigation or harbour authority minimum safety requirements on the day it was carried out?' The question has three possible answers:
Yes - In this event, the report can be considered a receipt-style certificate. It indicates that your boat met all the applicable minimum requirements on the day of examination. You should take note of the expiry date in forward planning your next BSS examination.
It is the entry of this information on the central BSS database, and not the BSS Examination Report, that will be used by your boat licensing body as evidence of your boat's BSS certification status. Keep the certification information with the boat's records and pass it on if you sell the boat.
Yes, but some advice checks did not pass - All the information in the paragraph above applies; however the examiner found advice check items that could not be passed (marked with an 'A'). Although privately-owned boats do not have to comply with advice checks to achieve BSS certification, each one represents best-safety practice and meeting them all is highly recommended. Any listed in the report may be material to the vessel's insurance and the boat owner's duties under the law of occupier's liability.
No - Checks marked 'R' for 'required' have not passed and these items must be addressed to achieve BSS certification. Again as above, addressing any issues linked to any checks marked 'A' included in the report are highly recommended. Full details of what has failed, why and what must be achieved will be provided by your examiner.
Warning notices - these are issued when the examiner has found, or has cause to suspect, that your boat presents a significant and immediate risk. You should arrange, or carry out, works to make the boat safe as soon as possible. The general nature of the risk and any checks associated with Warning Notice will be identified by your examiner.
About the BSS Examination and its limitations
Please note: the BSS Examination findings, and examination report, relate only to the facts observed at the time of the BSS Examination. It is not evidence of compliance with the navigation authorities' requirements at any other time.
The owner's on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made; or if a hire boat or other type of non-private boat is examined against the 'private boat' category of BSS checks.
A BSS examination and examination report relates only to the relevant version of the BSS Examination Checking Procedures published on boatsafetyscheme.org. Depending upon the nature of the specific check, the examination may be confined to items that can be seen, reached or touched.
A BSS examination is not a full condition survey, nor is it an indication that the vessel is fit for purpose. For example, it does not cover the condition of the hull or deck, the integrity of through-hull fittings or the stability of the boat and it isn't the same as having your boat serviced and doesn't check its general mechanical condition.
Prospective boat purchasers are strongly advised to satisfy themselves about all aspects of a vessel's condition by commissioning a pre-purchase survey before committing themselves to becoming new owners. Some surveyors are also authorised BSS Examiners and may be willing to carry out a BSS examination whilst surveying the craft if contracted so to do.
Please note the text text in Bold Underlined.
The standards for LPG installation on vessels up to 24m in length are BS10239 and PD54823:2016
Thanks
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3 hours ago, Tom Richmond said:
Sorry, only just noticed this reply!
Yes, two cylinders. Two regulators and two bubble testers! The pipe work will simply T together, I am led to understand that a regulator contains a non return valve, so the empty bottle can be changed over with the full bottle connected and in use.
I appreciate this is a rather roundabout way of working things, not to mention expensive, but trust me, it is the best of a bad bunch. The extra cost of bubble tester and regulator easily justifies the ease of welding two small bolt on lockers, vs cutting holes in the deck etc etc.
As an aside, how do I know what size regulator to get? They seem to measure in kg/h (the common ones being 1.5 or 4). I will have a small two burner hob and oven, and an instant gas heater. Only relevant figures I can find are output, listed as 6kw for the cooker, and 18kw for the water heater. I have been advised to use 12mm gas line if that's of any help.
If you go ahead and fit a Bubble Tester in this arrangement you will at the very least immediately invalidate your BSS Certificate (Take it from me, I am a Gas Safe Registered BSS Examiner).
Not only that but by installing the Bubble tester in line with your LPG gallery it will act as a choke and restrict the gas flow to your appliances when they are all running.
You have 18Kw power in your appliances. Bubble testers cannot be installed in line where appliance ratings add up to more than 12Kw.
Choking the gas may seem that they won't burn quite as fierce as they should, in actual fact it means that the gas will not burn as it should and it will produce deadly amounts of CO.
Please seek professional advice. There are ways to install a bubble Tester in systems with over 12Kw appliance ratings but they must be installed in an 'isolated branch' arrangement.
And with regards to insurance, the BSS have a record of every vessel with a Bubble Tester so in the event of an accident or worse a fatality, the resulting MAIB investigation will look to find out who installed it and when. And if done by other than a GSR Engineer certified to CCLP1-B then your insurance will be invalid.
Happy to help if you want more advice.
3 hours ago, Onewheeler said:10 kW ~ 0.72 kg / h (Calor data)
3 hours ago, Onewheeler said:10 kW ~ 0.72 kg / h (Calor data)
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On 14/08/2017 at 16:16, Cpickle said:
Does anyone have experience of using legal advisers to solve issues with boat supply companies? I am having issues with New and Used Boat Company and whilst going down this route is really the last thing I want to do, I just cant seem to get any resolution through talking to / emailing the staff there, I have been chasing various issues for months and months now and I am fed up. I don't know what else to do at this point other than instruct lawyers.
Bought boat in May, its a new boat and I've been given the wrong Annex - meaning that I have the wrong CB number and have therefore insured and licenced the wrong boat. No manual still either. It took me 3 months just to get a signed copy of the contract back. I just want to be able to have all the correct materials in place should I ever want to sell the boat in the future. Also, if I have a crash or something now my insurance is worthless, and I'm paying monthly for the pleasure!
I also have some technical issues with the boat, at times it just stops steering and there is no obvious reason why - clear prop etc. The dial shows that the engine is still engaged when its not. Also the fan belt is screeching for the first 10 mins every time I turn the engine on, and its getting progressively worse. Ok, yes things like the fan belt I could get fixed or fix myself - but the boat is under warranty and the contract states that they must be given the opportunity to fix problems themselves. I reported these problems within 10 days of getting the boat as per the contract, again months and no progress.
Another issue is that there are things in the spec that I was told I was getting and I've actually been given something else, for example - spec said engine upgraded to 65hp engine, I have a 60hp. When I questioned this at handover I was told something like - oh sometimes the company names the engine a higher number than the actual hp. That would be absolutely fine if that was the case but I was told it would be Vetus 65 and I have received a Canalline 60. I'm sure I would have bought the boat anyway - but being miss led just adds to my annoyance at the above.
Thanks again all for the advice.
Cait
Hi Cait. If you are the Cait that I visited in London earlier this year to look at working on your boat please call me, I may be able to help. Steve
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A quick check on BSS database shows she was examined in 2016 and passed with no Advisories.
If you are keen I would recommend a survey (I am a BSS examiner but not a surveyor). But be careful which surveyor you choose. I know a few who are under investigation at this moment and one who chose to settle out of court.
Offline I can recommend a few who are good & reasonable but as ever.
Caviat Emptor.
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The requirement for a Gas Inspection on a boat is simply broken down as below:
Privately owned and operated boat (Live-aboard or not) with LPG - Only requires a Gas Tightness Test as part of the BSS Certification every 4 years (but would benefit from an optional annual inspection).
Privately owned and rented out (Live-aboard or not) with LPG - Requires a Gas Safety Check annually for all appliances & Landlords Certificates..
Privately owned under 3rd management (shared Owner) with LPG - Requires a Gas Safety Check annually for all appliances & Landlords Certificates.
Hire Fleet Vessels - Require a Gas Safety Check annually for all appliances & Landlords Certificates.
Hope this helps.
Steve Williams - GSR Engineer (marine LPG)
LPG piping to oven advice
in Boat Equipment
Posted
Well that’s an interesting section. There are several occasions when a BSS will not comply with GSIUR and not only fail but also have the supply disconnected. The requirements for a BsS Cert on many vessels that are not in scope of GSIUR is simply compliance with the published ECPs applicable to that class of vessel. However where a vessel falls within scope of GSIUR, even if it complies with BSs ECPs it can be determined to be at risk or immediately dangerous. In which case the appropriate appendices of the. ads are acted upon and the GSR qualified examiner will follow the requirement of legislation and act accordingly. If you were a qualified BSS EXAMINER who was also GSR to CCLP1-B you would know that. As you are asking the question I assume you don’t know it. The difference then is that I am qualified, you are (or appear) not to be so qualified. Plenty of closet experts. In the event of an insurance claim attitudes and attentions are sharply brought into focus. You keep giving good advice, I’ll keep getting paid for correcting the mistakes of those who ask and listen to the wrong people. My work is warranted, legally undertaken, fully insured and regularly re-certified. Is yours?