Lord Gadbury
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Posts posted by Lord Gadbury
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On 13/01/2020 at 10:00, Dr Bob said:
Pompey. Once again utter rubbish.
You do not get 'spurting flammable electrolyte'. If you heat a Li ion battery with a blow torch, then the heat is spread out over the cell, the pressure relief valve blows and the electrolyte escapes as a gas and does not ignite. Look at the chinese videos in this thread. The gas/smoke coming out of the batteries is the electrolyte. It doesnt catch fire at these temperatures. To get a thermal runaway you have to have a point source of heat at 500°C which only happens on a short etc.
Have a look at a thread from last year that I posted
Since that thread started ...Nobody ..... has come back with ANY links to fires in LiFePO4s. The stability of the cathode material is so much better than other Li ion batteries. The messages that I can summarise are as follows:-
1) dont buy cheap chinese batteries as they could have manufacturing defects - even then LiFePO4s are far more stable than other Li ion.
2) dont misuse your batteries ie overcharge to stop dendrite formation
3) if you do have a boat fire then the flammable material in a LiFePO4 bank is only the same as if it was wood/paper/plastic so the boat is still going to get destroyed wether you have Li's or not.
In my opinion the risk of fire in LiFePO4 is very very very low to zero if managed properly. If you think otherwise then please provide data.
Thanks for your decent reply Dr. Bob, I understand and never intended to come across as an expert, and as I have previously said, I wasn't making, or at least didn't intend to make a statement of fact. More of a 'as I understand comment'.
From the reaction I feel I have received, I may as well bitten the head of a cute fluffy kitten, and streamed it live on CBBC. Not necessarily comments from you.
FYI, the 'I love talking out my ass comment' was a sarcastic remark drawn out of frustration. However some people choose to believe that statement, even when I am being accused of spreading mis-information. So at that point I felt it really didn't matter what I said.
Keep up the good work, good luck.
In my opinion if everything on a boat is managed properly, then there will never be an incident of any sort, however not everybody does manage a boat properly.
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Just now, WotEver said:
So don’t throw your batteries into it. It’ll wreck them. They won’t catch fire or anything, they’ll just stop working, which is expensive.
Again, can you give a reference for this assertion? I’ve certainly never heard of it happening on any boat, ever, anywhere in the world.
Unfortunately there’s no doubt about this.
LOL at the 3rd comment, I agree,makes no odds to me.
If you read your reply, you asserted it your self. How do you put out a lithium fire? as somebody facing that fire, not sat behind a desk saying, ohh I didnt think that would happen!
I would treat my batteries like eggs! They are valuable, not a destruction test,
Oh hang on maybe that was what the egg was invented for.
I love talking out my ass, and getting intelligent people to respond!
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40 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:
I hope that's not a new forum rule.
It's going to go very quiet around here if it is enforced!
Wouldn't it just
48 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:Pompey. I am sorry but you are talking a load of rubbish. Your statements are either plain wrong or at best missleading.
'Lithium burns with no air What on earth does this mean? Lithium metal burns only burns with oxygen. Yes, it doesnt need air if there are oxygen atoms around. In normal Li ion battery fires, the oxygen comes from the metal oxide content of the cathode so say cobalt oxide can decompose to provide the oxygen. In an LiFePO4 cell the oxygen could come from the iron phosphate but the oxygen is tightly bound so far far less likely to be available to support combustion. LiFePO4s are the safest of the Li ion batteries. You have to understand though, there is normally no lithium metal in an Li ion battery, the Li is there in ionic form and so will be less likely again to combust. Metal lithium will only appear if the batteries are badly treated and we all avoid that...over charging and heavy discharging.
however water increases the' rapid destruction' of a Lithium based battery, Where does the water come from? I have no water near my lithium batteries. I do not intend to have any water near my batteries. Once again it is metal lithium and water which causes a reaction but this would just make lithium oxide and would not cause an explosion or fire. It would just wreck the battery.
Lithium based battery has its separator compromised it will either go into 'thermal runaway', or 'rapid destruction'. Once again, total misinformation. Separators do not get compromised. They dont fail. Thermal runaway can occur in Li ion batteries via short circuits caused by dendrite formation but very very unlikely in LiFePO4s as they are more robust than other Li systems and again only if misused. A further point you do not understand is that Li cells are built with a safety feature that will expel the electrolyte once the cells get to 100°C ish. The pressure cap will blow and the electolyte will be blown out therefore stopping any thermal runaway. This makes it very very difficult to get thermal runaway in a LiFePO4 cell. As long as LiFePO4 cells are not overcharged, or discharged/charged at high rate at very low temps then they are very very unlikely to go on fire.
If using Cells from a write off electric vehicle, how electrically safe would they be, especially on a boat? What is special about a boat? When you buy 2nd hand batteries you test them to make sure they work. If they do then they can be installed anywhere. It is prudent to keep an eye on cell voltages to make sure that they are ok. The useage duty on a narrowboat is very sedate with very little potential for mechanical damage. I have said on here a number of times that I wouldnt use Li's on a lumpy water boat as that would have to withstand beating into a force 6 gale ....I just cant see them standing up to that hammering. Narrowboats are a bit different.
I haven't read it all, and I haven't learnt all the all the lessons that life has to give. My advice to you is to read it all and then come back and input. Your statements that come across as facts could influence others incorrectly.
My expertise on Lithium batteries comes from my own use of them on my narrowboat but also from my professional position with a company which is part of an Eu wide grant programme for the aerospace industry researching standards for the safe transport of Li ion batteries in passenger aircraft. Our company is doing a lot of work destroying batteries to explore their safety in the holds of aircraft. We now have a lot of experience in this area.
My expertise says my boat is surrounded by water. It is a boat.
As if spurting flammable electrolyte around the hot engine bay isnt bad enough, or inside the cabin 'as they are sealed', or just plane simple contaminating the water ways.
My budget doesnt run to a trial and error/ destruction situation, and I very well may be talking out of my backside,
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10 minutes ago, WotEver said:
Top hit results in...
”The LiFePO4 batteries are the safest type of Lithium batteries as they will not overheat, and even if punctured they will not catch on fire. ... Due to the oxygen being bonded tightly to the molecule, there is no danger of the battery erupting into flames like there is with Lithium-Ion.”
So I repeat, what is your reference for LifePo4 batteries catching fire?Then I am wrong, it wont be the first time, and am absolutely *sure wont be the last time.
For my reference, if it stores energy then it can produce a sudden discharge, pun intended! They said the Titanic would never sink ?
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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:
Let me get this straight.
Provided I don't ever put a cover over my batteries with a naked flame, my boat is safe. Right?
When have I said that?
If a battery is faulty it is faulty! Have you ever seen an electrical fire afloat, and how quick it can spread?
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3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
Did you ever see this vid
no, thank you for posting.
Ever put a cover over a charging battery with a naked flame. Just to check how long it becomes unstable.
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5 minutes ago, WotEver said:
Can you give a reference for this assertion?
'LiFePO4 fire' use that quote in google. 500 degrees for the electrolyte to catch fire, which can be achieved very quickly in a damaged battery.
Not my experience btw.
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On 10/01/2020 at 10:24, Dr Bob said:
Some peeps post some very bad advice on here. A waste of money mixing LAs with LiFePO4s? Nah. Excellent cost benefit. I would love to hear Pompey's experience to back up his statement.
In response to Stationmasters OP, I think what I have done is pretty near to what he is wanting. The outline of my system was in this thread (page 9, post 212) although there have been some changes since posting.
The more upto date system was described in January's 2020 edition of Canal Boat Magazine. What I did was to bolt on 480Ahrs of LiFePO4 capacity in parallel to my 660Ahr LA bank. When I bought the 12 LiFePO4 cells I wasnt sure they would be compatible with the alternator charging and didnt want to disrupt the existing battery system and charging, so I just connected them up together with a big isolation switch between the two banks. The system has now been in use for 10 months. I run it between 12.8V and 13.2V on discharge so the LA bank is always at least 95% full. That means the Li bank always has the capacity to take whatever is thrown at it and could do SM's job of taking power from the TP etc. The benefit of leaving the LA's in place is that when I leave the boat, or one of our sprogs want a week out in it, I can isolate the Li's and let them use it just on the LA's. If we sell the boat I will just unbolt the wires and take the Li's with me.
I am now totally reliant on the LiFePO4s but have the option to switch back to LA's. I will never go back to LA's only. In time as the LA's die (no sign yet) I will take them out of circuit.
The system was put together using off the shelf stuff and was simple to do once I had got my head around making 50mm battery connections. Total cost was around £1250 but this could be reduced by going for just 240Ahr or 360Ahr Li cells. Even at £1250 this will pay back for itself in 5 years with much, much reduced engine running (cost of diesel only). Factor in engine hours, servicing and noise reduction and the benefits get much better.
The OP shouldnt be frightened of looking at a hybrid system like this if he understands the need to learn about lithium voltages and charging and be prepared to spend a bit of time monitoring in the first few months of operation.
I apologise, for 'Lithium burns with no air', comment, it does, however water increases the' rapid destruction' of a Lithium based battery, LiFePO4's have been attributed to fires, the main cause that I can see is excessive damage. IIRC, if a Lithium based battery has its separator compromised it will either go into 'thermal runaway', or 'rapid destruction'.
If using Cells from a write off electric vehicle, how electrically safe would they be, especially on a boat?
A lot of good advice on here. I haven't read it all, and I haven't learnt all the all the lessons that life has to give.
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49 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Which is why to do it properly takes years and years, especially in industries like the inland marine industry that almost totally consists of one offs and owner modified boats.
I will never disagree with that, how many youngsters are coming into the inland marine industry ?
Under 55, I consider myself a youngster. it maybe an area thing.
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1 hour ago, WotEver said:
You have to remember that to achieve this status requires a serious commitment of a whole day’s attendance on a course.
I have never doubted this. actually 3 days, you only have to be competent to work on a boat that is not residential.. I havent got a problem with that, how do you determine competence ?
All the aircraft or ships I worked on have been retired. Some times it is worth a refresh.
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12 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:
And of course nearly all of the members here using lithiums (peterboat excepted) have connected them in parallel with at leat one LA battery anyway, as a rough and ready way of protecting the alternator in the unlikely event of an emergency disconnect during charging from the alternator.
So a hybrid system is actually forum 'received wisdom'.
received wisdom indeed, Lithium burns with no air, along with a higher temperature than steel will remain intact.
it is inevitable we are going to recycle battery cells. I would 'IMHO' check a number of things, 1st your insurance policy.
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18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:
I never meant any, fanx ( thats a new word for me BTW )
As far as I am aware, I haven't upset anybody whilst on the towpath, i have met some great people, also met some complete assholes,
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Neither am I obviously. Thanks.
As for the breakdown.
A long story short, my engine, all 187 Kgs of it was being held in by one m8 bolt, due to my AVM's not working.
I have new AVM's, need some shims making, then I can think about, putting engine and propulsion back together,
Like I said every day is a learning experience,
Life's Great
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No you didn't get it wrong,
I have been down to the GU, by car. And did some jobs.
My past work history, has proved I will get it done. Now I have passed two exams which say I know that you need a positive and a negative to create a circuit, which I learnt a long, long time ago.
Again, apologies for any offence, I am now 'stuck' at Buxsworth Basin unless you have an engine hoist, and within travelling distance of Buxsworth, Derbyshire.
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3 hours ago, Boater Sam said:
Oh, don't grovel too much, ? there are some on here who will eat you alive, better to stand tall from a position of command rather than get bullied off.
Mostly they seem to be plumbers strangely.?
Plumbing was the first thing I learned owning a boat
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:
We all know nothing at birth and have to learn, it is better to learn about the subject before entering into discussions and making statements that are irrelevant or worse, untrue.
God gave us two ears and one mouth, they should be used in the same proportions.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and look a fool, than open it and confirm it.
Stick with us, there is a huge amount to learn about battery management and being probably the most difficult to understand takes some understanding.
Ask your questions and implement the information provided. The forum is a fantastic resource and has proven to give better information than that many boaters have received from 'paid for experts'.
Boating batteries and electrical systems are unlike anything else.
Fair comment, cant disagree. 2 ears, 1 mouth. Use them in that order. *Edit 2 eyes, in this case.
I do understand the paid for 'ex-sperts. 'A has been, under pressure''.
I will stick around, thanks.
I have seen previously how people are willing to help on this forum.
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Ok fair coment, to all,.
No installs but looking at systems. Sorry I didnt want to come across Smug, or an Oracle.
I will be replacing batteries next year, the winter has taken toll on them, I have a hybrid system, if you include the inverter.
Sorry that I didnt come across that well.
Yes, certification is a requirement, in order to get insurance etc. it is a thing that has to be done. If I come across wrong on a forum I am sorry about that.
The one thing I have learned since owning a boat, is every day is a learning experience.
Apologies for any offence caused, certainly not intended.
The 'Load Test' says wether the battery is holding a charge.from a Leisure PoV, that is what the Electronic Version of the drop test ( oh how we learn ) which people relied on.
Batteries, ' A way of storing electricity' understanding how that happens, is amazing
A great fred title!
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No it wont test that. I am not aware of a test that will tell you that.
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The 'Load Test' says wether the battery is holding a charge.from a Leisure PoV, that is what the Electronic Version of the drop test ( oh how we learn ) which people relied on.
Batteries, ' A way of storing electricity' understanding how that happens, is amazing
A great fred title!
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On 05/01/2020 at 08:44, StationMaster said:
This was the bit I wasn't sure about, I'm aware of needing to charge the domestic bank fully but was thinking that by reducing the amps taken out of the domestic bank I could reduce the charging time - this is probably correct but not enough (using my solution) to make it worthwhile.
I'll wait a few more years to see how battery technology improves before making any decision... putting in all the safety kit is beyond my level of expertise.
You go full Li-On or nothing really.
A complete waste of money mixing the two systems.
Absolutely nothing wrong with Li-On, preferential imo, they can discharge to 0%, for starters. Which is actually 10% of capacity.
Very good for people who dont move much. Your mobile works on Li-On battery technology, or Ni-Cad, depending on your age.
Ni-Cad - has power memory issues. Unless flattened and then fully recharged.
Li-On -Excellent, will provide full voltage until battery management kicks in which is why, you must ensure, battery charging is suited for Li-On.
Led-Acid - Made of Lead rather then Lithium, discharge to 80 %, sulphating occurs past 11.6v
There are a few different battery types:
Li-On-the best and most expensive
AGM - The next best thing
Sealed - Both the above fit in this section: no maintenance required.
Led-Acid, wet cells, maintenance required ! Which is where most people go wrong. They produce Hydrogen Gas when charging.
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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Start the engine ay 08:00 tomorrow and run it until 21:00 and see if you can get the battery(s) fully charged, it looks to me as if you have not yet managed to get them properly charged.
Then turn off everything and connect up a known load (old-style 55w car headlight bulb is good) run the load until the battery drops to 12.1 volts disconnect the load and battery should recover to 12.2 volts. How long did it take to get from 'full' to 12.2 volts ?
What was the 'known load' wattage ?
Keeping doing 'a couple of hours' is not achieving anything as you are still using 'leccy in the interim so we don' know what you are actually getting to.
I will happily do an eletonic version of the drop test, now called 'Load Test.
There are loads off reasons why an alternator doesnt perform well, overheating would be my guess.
I would be annoyed if I had to sit in a boat, with the engine running all day long.
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On 05/01/2020 at 01:37, WotEver said:
Well I never...
So useless for 12V or 24V boats then.
LOL
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Is your alternator set up for charging Li-on ?
A battery cell, is a battery cell, series, parrallel, you can increase amps, or volts, but you can never increase power. if the cells are movable, you can make it what you want.
If your alternator isnt setup for Li-on, then you will have a 'Thermal Incident'
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+1 to rgreg, we did that section a few months ago, didn't really see anywhere I thought unsafe to Moore, we moored opposite the aldi, near water tower IIRC, on way in to Chester, approx halfway between Chester and Ellesmere Port and in Chester TC, no issues at either place, a nice journey.
Enjoy
Can a stove be too hot?
in Boat Equipment
Posted
They are only £15.99 at Aldi, Stove fan that is. We have one It doesn't rattle.
We have a villager stove, if it is shut it will go out by morning, open too much sweating buckets in the back, and burnt out by morning, fine line, however I haven't ever see the stove glow red, though hot enough to open all doors in winter.
As for gobbing. I am not a plumber, not used google, I am using assumption/ logic (tin hat on), put a cap on flue/chimney, close all vents, light the smoke pellet, put the smoke pellet in stove, shut door, stand back and look for smoke coming out ?
It may be worth getting a candle, close up the stove, leave the Flue/chimney in place, and open. Go around the stove with the candle, the flame of the candle will be drawn towards the draft. Go around all the joints, start at the bottom.
I hope this helps.
Just my opinion you understand, this is what I would do.