[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

But its the same as planning permission. If you buy some land without planning permission for housing, you're effectively gambling on the "hope value" that it will succeed once planning is submitted. You can't ask the local council to predict their decision until they have all the evidence in front of them - which is a planning application. And of course, that developer can sell on that land with PP, at a much higher price.

Yes, you have to submit a planning application to get a formal binding answer, But you can find out most of what you need to know beforehand. The planning officers are obliged to answer your questions. Even to the extent of a discrete pre-planning enquiry - a sort of informal planning application without going public.

You will learn all the conditions necessary for compliance, and if you meet these conditions, you will get planning permission. It worked two ways. Planning officers are not empowered to give permission any more than refusing it - but they have a jolly good idea of what it will be - and I have found they are quite happy to express a non-comittal opinion.

 

Not perfect but it removes quite a lot of expensive guesswork. Usually, it is likely that you will not meet all the prescribed requirements in precise detail, in which case it has to go to committee.

In my case with CRT, they are not giving me the information i need to fill in the forms.

[Surveyor in Tamworth Area]

One of my neighbours has asked if I know of a good BSS Examiner in the Tamworth area.

 

When I bought my boat I had the BSS undertaken at the same time as the survey in the Calcutt area, so the one I used isn't that local.

 

Amy recommendations gratefully accepted.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Alan

Tom Hayes did mine for the last two inspections. He was at Debbies Day Boats - but that was 4 years ago. My boat is due for another test in Septeber. I will contact them. But if others know of him, or where he is I would like to know please.

[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

 

From how I read your description, it would seem that the piece of land has nothing to do with the houses and is similar to my mooring. My mooring is on a strip of C&RT land and it is on the offside. There is no access to this strip of C&RT land without either crossing the adjacent land (equivalent to your piece of land) or from the canal. We access our mooring by crossing the canal in a dinghy from the towpath side, where C&RT have a small compound where we can park a car and keep a dinghy.

 

If C&RT own a piece of land between your land and the canal, and you have no way of reaching the canal without crossing C&RT's land, I can't see it easy for you to claim a right to an EOG mooring if the piece of land is more than a notional yard or so wide.

Yes. You touch on complications that are foreseable with a little thought - albeit that a great deal of thought has gone into it judging by the quality of replies here. Thanks to everybody.

But what you say is a good example of the possibilities open to CRT to exploit the situation and underpins my approach to CRT for an answer. But there is no need for CRT to do anything other than tell me moorings will be permitted. Then everything falls in place.

Why make life difficult for everybody by not coming back with a helpful answer that will work here.

If the geography of the land and ownership issues deny the definition of EOG - that's fine. Let them say so.

If EOG on-line moorings are to be reduced in this area (as per K&A) let them say so. They have to tell me.

The basic logic is easy. I ensure my plan includes a fence to separate my land from CRT land. CRT then split their land into 3 plots and then allocate the plots to whichever house owner wants to moor a boat. The house owner then removes their fence to extend their garden to the canal. Simples.

[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

But end of garden moorings are not much of an asset to be maximised. Their policies already reflect the need to balance the mooring aspirations of canalside landowners with the interests of the wider boating community and others. Which is why they restrict you to one boat per house and don't generally permit subletting.

Yes. Good point. But EOG moorings are an asset in the sense that they generate maximum income for zero outlay. And if they have policies already in place for this sort of issue it would be easy enough to tell me.

And here it would be 7 houses with no hope of moorings of 1 boat each.

[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

 

The current position from CRT's website:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1127.pdf says

 

"Permission will normally be granted for just one boat to be moored adjacent to the garden of a

private residential property on the offside of the canal providing that there are no operational or

environmental constraints as per para. 1(d). This does not apply on the Kennet & Avon Canal which

is subject to the provisions of its conservation plan."

 

PS: to my previous reply. Underscored in the above text, it is because of these operational or environmental constraints that I have gone to CRT seeking an answer. But it is something in writing that I am asking for as well. I need it for quoting and direct reference and traceable to an authorised source.

 

Also there could be more than one boat because there could be 7 houses with narrow gardens - which on average being about 30ft wide means just about any narrowboat would extend beyond the garden of the house owner.

 

This is accepted as a reason for rejection - but strictly speaking the gardens do not reach the waters edge. They stops at the CRT strip. The strip itself is enough for 3 or 4 boats. It becomes a question of how CRT would allocate their land to each house.

 

Hence my question to CRT, and here, because CRT are a bit backward coming forward.

[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

You need to understand the original Act of parliament for the particular canal. This will state where on the offside the canal finishes and what rights of access they have and the landowner have. It also says what rights the owner of the offside bank has, and whether these are transferable. It is a full on nightmare, and can have large legal bills, when a right is pursued. Some canals give the landowner the rights to moor for loading and specify the number and type of boat. On certain canals only named individuals got the rights to moor boats on the offside, at certain places. On some canals the number of boats each landowner can have on his length is given, this is normally not dividable if you sell the land and split it, post the act, so you will discover some people own 2/3s of a boat length of mooring. As a boat length is defined in the act this can then equate to a length of allowed boat which is free of mooring rights. I have heard of BW auguring that a long boat does not qualify and it has to be the given length or shorter. Some landowners have the right to operate a number of boats for free (without toll) on the canal. This only applies to that canal as defined in the act, not all C&RT waters. Sometimes it is only pleasure boats sometimes this is defined as a rowing boat or skiff. As I said a legal nightmare, made worse because sometime C&RT have lost their records of who has what rights so start off saying you must have none, till proved otherwise.

--

All the best Ian Mac

PS it also says who is responsible for the maintenance of the canal bank and where to, but only in some acts.

Thanks. If all these complications are lurking in the back-ground I would have thought that is something the 'experts' at CRT would know about and will be dealing with on a daily basis - and say so.

[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

 

The current position from CRT's website:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1127.pdf says

 

"Permission will normally be granted for just one boat to be moored adjacent to the garden of a

private residential property on the offside of the canal providing that there are no operational or

environmental constraints as per para. 1(d). This does not apply on the Kennet & Avon Canal which

is subject to the provisions of its conservation plan."

 

and https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/mooring-your-boat/mooring-faqs says

 

"How much will I pay per year for an end of garden mooring?

The price payable for the permit is set by reference to the mooring fees for simple on-line moorings in the area supplied by us. A benchmark site is identified and a price discount applied to account for the fact that we provide the water space but not the land access to it or any facilities at the site. The discount is normally of the order of 50%."

 

Beyond those two statements, I doubt you will get much more commitment from CRT at this stage. My guess is also that there is no guarantee that these positions will not change, so the policy which applies when a future house-owner wants a mooring may not necessarily be the same.

 

You will have to decide how to lay out your plots to get say 3 plots with 70 ft moorings or 4 with 50 ft moorings or whatever, and then it is up to the eventual buyers to apply for a mooring.

Thanks for the links. Very helpful. You have summarised the situation the same way I understand it.

 

I assume someone at CRT would say whatever decision is applicable in my case in response to my questions.

Other than "fill in a form and we will see".

 

That might be convenient for the person tasked with responding because they don't know the answer, but not a lot of good for running CRT who need to exploit opportunities to maximise income from assets.

 

I can quote here from a recent internal CRT document: Somewhere in which is am implicit requirement to come up with plans to meet their objectives.

 

The Trust has a range of charitable objects including:

 

• To hold in trust or own and to operate and manage inland waterways for public benefit, use and enjoyment;

• To protect and conserve objects and buildings of heritage interest;

• To further the conservation, protection and improvement of the natural environment of inland waterways; and

• To promote sustainable development in the vicinity of any inland waterways for the benefit of the public.

 

For my part, in absence of a definitive reply from CRT, I have totally discounted any involvement of the canal amenity in my development plans at this stage. It is far too complicated.

 

As you say, it is up to the potential owner to apply. But it is within my remit to parcel the land in such a way that stops CRT from getting any commercial benefit from it at a later date. Which I will do if they are unable to cooperate now.

 

Which is a pity. Everyone loses.

[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

Having re-read the OP, I'm not sure talk of ransom strip is relevant - the OP states that the site developer owns the offside bank.

Sorry if my description was not clear. The land I own runs alongside the canal and stops at the top edge of the a steep bank. The steep 'bank' down the water's edge is the bit owned by CRT.

It is analogous to gardens that stop at the edge of the towpath. CRT own the towpath. Except in my case CRT can't get to their land without crossing mine other than by water.

[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

I'm sure I read that if you are selling a house that has an EOG mooring that you can not guarantee CRT will let the new owner have one as well. I'm no expert so dont slate me if I have it wrong.

 

ETA DOR beat me to it

Yes, you and Dor are probably right. Hence my question to CRT about policy because whoever makes a decision at CRT will need to have guidance on this. And open to challenge if they say no - providing there is a policy to start with of course.

 

There has to be one in principle Either something as basic as 'word-of-mouth' ..."up to the local manager" or in detail and printed as a directive, in which case it would be available on request, I suppose.

 

I am chasing CRT on this. In the meantime I am doing some homework on it.

Thanks for your help.

[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

Interesting you should say that.

It is a ransom strip in a sense that CRT can charge extra for a license for access to a mooring - if they grant a mooring permit in the first place.

I have leased this piece of land charge myself for 30 years for my own narrowboat at a nominal rent and I pay 50% of the local mooring rate for an EOG mooring.

 

The 'ransom' works both ways. The strip owned by CRT is only accessible across my land or from the canal.

It is of no use to CRT except for use by adjacent houses for access to a boat (or as an extension to a garden).

 

My basic problem is CRT are non-committal. An answer to the effect that mooring permits can be issued (for how many boats) and there is a charge (how much) for mooring and access, would be fine.....but nothing!

[End of Garden mooring permits - is there a CRT policy?]

I am trying to find out in advance from CRT if End-of-Garden (EOG) mooring permits can be granted for a piece of off-side land I own so that I can sell some plots for house building with EOG mooring rights.

I have been told by CRT that EOG mooring permits can only be considered in response to application forms where decisions will be made on the merits of each case.

 

The only thing I have been told in advance is that permits will not be granted if boats extends beyond the boundaries of each property, That's OK within reason because I can adjust boundaries to suit if necessary.

 

But it might not be necessary because there is a strip of canal-side land owned by CRT between my land and the canal - (available subject to a license for access) with room for 3 full length narrowboats. There is a potential of 7 house plots, so first come first served if more than 3 want moorings.

Other than boundary issues, I can't proceed because I can't fill the forms in because I don't know details of the prospective buyers or their boats.

 

And boat owners won't buy if mooring are likely to be refused.

I am having trouble getting a useful answer from CRT that I can pass to prospective buyers.

What are the 'merits' of granting or denying a mooring permit - is there a CRT policy where we can judge for ourselves - or even challenge a refusal? - does anyone know - because if CRT know they are not telling me!

[What are lock landings?]

When mooring I keep as far away from locks as you can (and bridges and bends and narrow stretches and toilets and water points).

 

Imagine you are an approaching boat and consider the inconvenience that would be caused if a boat was moored where you said.

 

As others have said, if moored in an awkward position, you will cause bad feeling and annoyance.

 

You risk getting bumped, cussed, shouted at and even sworn at - (but not necessarily in that order).

[Non-refundable deposits on moorings]

Anyway, here is the new mooring on the opposite side which I'm definitely going for: Glad to hear it. I wish you well.

 

"So you would pay £3k to move a boat by road without knowing if the new job you have taken on will work out?

 

I'm prepared to gamble £500, but not £3k."

 

No! not £3k. That would wait till the job was certain. I would only pay £500 deposit to secure the mooring until my job situation became clear.

[Non-refundable deposits on moorings]

 

Yes, I do understand what the deposit is for Mike.

 

Yes, I guess so. I'll probably just bite the bullet and go for it.

 

If I end up losing the money I'll just blame the forum! .......hold on a minute !...... you will not lose any money as such because you will be paying for a distinct and tangible benefit that has a measurable market value - which is the right to exclusive use of a mooring site of your liking.

It is only you that can give weight to the 'likeness' of the site. It is up to you to use it.to get value out of it.

I know one thing, if it was me I would jump at the chance, because that solves the problem, and it leaves me free focus on the new job without the worry of all this hanging over me - from whence cometh the wealth to pay for it. But that's me!

 

[Non-refundable deposits on moorings]

I have no idea of prices in the area, or demand, so can't say whether it is good value or not. But even if I did, it is purely a 'private' decision between you and the landlord. If the site ticks all your boxes, then go for it.

But apart from cost, it seems like a logistics problem of timing.

How long will it take to find the job is permanent (who decides?).

Can you manage without the boat during this period.

Will you be able to find another mooring at a later date (at less cost?).

What is the deposit for. Is to hold the mooring pending your occupation for a fixed period.

When do you you start paying rent - and what notice to vacate is required - .

There are too many variables to ponder.

My simplistic approach is pay the deposit to reserve the site 'empty' (but probably paying rent from day 1) - until you know the job will be permanent. Then move your boat.

Meanwhile 'rent' the mooring temporarily (if you can) to a 'passing' boat.