rogeriko
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Posts posted by rogeriko
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You have to find out the number of times you can go to 50% DOD (depth of discharge) many leisure batteries are only 120 times. Whereas forklift cells are about 2000 times. This figure will give you the life expectancy of your batteries. Rolls batteries are also around 1600/2000 times 50% DOD.
Looking at their website they say their AGM batteries are good for 400 cycles and they also say that their AGM batteries will last 4 times longer than the normal batteries which to me means your batteries are only good for 100 cycles or just over 3 months. For that sort of daily use you need Rolls or Trojan batteries as used in most off-grid houses where deep daily discharges are the norm. I have posted before about this.
http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=72805&hl=%2Brolls+%2Bbatteries#entry1476629
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I mean the earth dosn't go to the transformer at all (on the boat side) the live and neutral from the transformer go to the consumer unit and then to the outlets. The ground from the outlets is connected to the hull but not to the neutral. That way both wires L/N from the transformer are floating above ground and no current will flow through you to ground in the event of a fault.
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Surely the whole point of using an isolation transformer is to seperate the live to ground connection. In other words the live output of the transformer is only at a potential of 230v above the neutral output of the transformer NOT to ground. In europe (different regs) I used to install outdoor lighting through a 230v transformer and the neutral is never connected to ground. There is no RCD after the transformer. This is how it is done europe wide. You cannot get a shock from the live wire because there is no ground to complete the circuit, only if you touch live and neutral at the same time. I used to work on live radio and tv chassis, remember those, where one side of the mains went directly to the chassis. Anyway we used to use isolating transformers and then could quite safely touch all metal parts live or not. I know RCD's are the norm (regs) in the UK but having one after the transformer and connecting neutral to ground kind of defeats the object.
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As you probably know due to all the pollution and recycling controls almost all used lead batteries are shipped to China where they are melted down and made into new batteries. They are then shipped back to the UK and a label is stuck on and they are sold. No-one is ever going to check how many Ah there really is in a battery, has anyone on the forum actually measured the capacity of their batteries.
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As far as voltage on the earth wire is concerned dont forget there is no neutral wire returning to the generators on the National Grid. The return neutral is done through the ground connection, therefore ALL the domestic power in the UK goes to ground in order to complete the circuit back to the nuclear power station or wherever it came from. No wonder your boat is corroding!!! Your metal boat in dirty water is probably the best earth point for the whole town not just the marina. Make sure the marina earth is nowhere near your boat.
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Start looking for a 240 to 240 site transformer. They are blue in colour not yellow like all the 110v ones. But you are still going to have to isolate the earth on the boat, make shure its not connected to the earth on the shoreline.
Heres some info
http://www.bcet.co.uk/marine-isolation-transformers.html
Why would you need 10kva that would power a small cruise ship !!!
3600va is plenty http://www.airlinktransformers.com/boating_transformers/
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Its the earth connection that has to be isolated to stop your boat becoming the earthing point for the entire neighbourhood.
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This is the battery spec for Fuller Power
"This Fuller Power 110R 110Ah 12V caravan battery has been engineered purely for quality. This 110Ah battery for your caravan uses the latest deep cycle technology, meaning it can typically cycle to 50% charge and back, 120 times. Created for the European leisure market, it offers a low water loss design."
If you are going to discharge your batteries to 50% every day these batteries will only last for 120 days!!! For heavy use like that you need Rolls Batteries that can be discharged 1000 times to 50%. These are the famous red batteries that are used the world over for solar powered houses. I went to a holiday house 5 years ago that had no power (service call) and the Rolls Batteries had boiled dry six months before. I filled them with water and they are still running today.
http://www.eurobatt.co.uk/rolls-12v-s12-95agm-deep-cycle-battery/
Scroll down to the specifications here for the Rolls AGM Series 5 batteries
http://www.windandsun.co.uk/products/Batteries/Rolls-Batteries#.VK3ID3vgXfY
These are batteries designed for off-grid living not for caravans. I would rather buy these for 200 pounds and keep them for years despite the heavy use than replace them every six months.
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rogeriko, on 03 Jan 2015 - 2:05 PM, said:
Forklift batteries are also capable of high amp discharges which leisure batteries arent
Robbo
This isn't correct, leisure/starter batteries can give and take amps quicker than traction batteries
OK perhaps I should have said Forklift batteries are also capable of giving continuous high amp discharges which leisure batteries arent. I have installed many 3Kw 24v inverters with traction batteries and when everything in the house is on they are discharging at 150A for several hours on end..If you by chance happen to short out the terminals whatever it was that caused the short just vaporises 1000's of amps.
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Equalisation means overcharging so that any individual cells that are slightly lower than the others can catch up, in other words once a month when your batteries reach 100% keep charging for a couple of hours more.
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Unless you are going to look after the expensive batteries just replace them with cheap ones. You can kill expensive ones just as quickly as cheap ones.
There is no such thing as expensive batteries and cheap ones that is just down to marketing and the retailers profit margin. What there is is batteries that are designed to be discharged down to 20% and those that are designed to go down only to 50%, also those with 2000 cycles and those with 500 cycles. If you read the specs Traction ie Forklift batteries are 2000 discharges as opposed to leisure which are only 500 discharges also surprise surprise, Forklift batteries can be discharged way more without damaging them. Forklift batteries are also capable of high amp discharges which leisure batteries arent. If you are just running led lights then leisure is fine but as soon as you connect an inverter with a 100A draw (1Kw) then the leisure batts will die quick. If you read battery specs you will see ratings of C5 C10 C20 C100 this is the capacity of the battery at different rates of discharge, in laymans terms, when you turn on your inverter your 110 Ah battery is actually only going to be about 70Ah, if that because you are drawing a larger current from the battery than it was designed for. Leiure batteries are rated at C20 ie 20 hours to discharge to 50% or a current of 2.5 amps for your normal 110Ah battery. Forklift batteries are rated at C5 or 5 hours to discharge down to 50% thats a current of 10 amps for a 110Ah forklift battery. The charging rates are also equivalent. A 110Ah forklift battery is actually closer to 180Ah if you use the same C ratings. A good set of 500Ah Forklift batteries fully charged will last the average boater about a week before they need charging because when you are just running led lights and the tv the current draw is so low that the batteries are around 750Ah in reality. Your leisure batteries run down quick as soon as you use a heavy load even only for 10 minutes will take a huge chunk out of them.
The key to the storage power is in the weight of the lead. A 260 kg battery is way better than a 130kg battery. As far as killing a forklift battery is concerned they are extremely indestructible. Run them flat, way down below a leisure battery and its no problem they were designed for it. Leave them flat for a week or two no problem they come right back because they are built to last. In fact they are designed to be discharged every day for 5 years, 2000 cycles, but on a boat where we are only running them down once a week thats why they can easily last 15 years. I am including a photo of the batteries that ran my house in Greece only charged by the sun and the wind. The batteries were 24 years old at the time of the photo. They had been emptied and left in a field for 2 years, I refilled them and off we went almost as good as new.
Unfortunately Forklift batteries are expensive in the UK because they are only sold commercialy to factorys so they are tax deductible to the customer who dosnt really care about the cost. In Germany there are many thousands of private customers buying these batteries to connect to their solar panels at home and get a grant from the german government, thats why big batteries are cheap over there, theres a bigger demand. The wholesale cost per Kg is the same for most types of battery, in Greece I was buying big 1200Ah batteries for 300 pounds each, in the UK the same product was double the price because there is little demand over here for off-grid living.
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Here is a couple of houses running on forklift batteries that I have installed.
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If all canal boats used Forklift batteries there wouldn't be a tenth of the threads on here with people having power problems. Nobody would even dream of using leisure batteries to supply an Off Grid house with power! A canal boat is an Off Grid house. Canal boats no longer use just one lightbulb they have microwaves, washing machines TV's etc used for hours every night. After 6 months of use a leisure battery has lost a lot of its capacity whereas a Forklift battery hasn't. A 620Ah 12v Forklift battery weighs 261 Kilos, how much do 5 leisure batteries weigh? Its the lead that counts.
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I am an installer of large battery systems that run houses off grid. If you want a decent set of batteries Forklift cells is the ONLY way to go. All these leisure batteries are just rebranded car batteries. Find yourself some decent Forklift batteries with tubular cells and they are good for 10/12 years no matter what you do to them. Dont forget in a factory a forklift runs the batteries down everyday and charges them up every night and they still last for years and years.
This should give you something to think about http://store.bluebatt.com/suche.php?suchausdruck=refurbished-Traktionszelle-Typ-6PzS750-2V-750Ah-2
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Thats an inverter generator full of electronics and water sensitive parts. I am sorry but I wish I was the Honda dealer your going to take it to, basically probably cheaper to buy a new one by the time they have finished telling you whats wrong with it.
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The duty issue on diesel for boats was an EU directive, as we're aware. Interestingly, my son filled his car with road diesel (so full road-going duty price) in Belgium today.... at 87p per litre. Is there anywhere here that cheap even at 60/40?
The UK has the highest diesel prices in Europe. I have driven all over Europe and used to hate the big jump in price when crossing the channel. Diesel is cheaper than gasoline everywhere else.
http://www.fuel-prices-europe.info/
http://www.fuel-prices-europe.info/%C2'> Check it out, Rip off Britain once again.
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Dont forget pretty much all narrowboat diesel engines will run on 100% biodiesel. They are the old style mechanical fuel pumps and not the new common rail injector system. There are plenty of websites that will tell you if your diesel pump is biodiesel compatible. I make my own from old frying oil that I buy on ebay and with the cost of chemicals it works out at about 33p a litre. Biodiesel with the exise duty paid can be found for around 1£ a litre
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You say "after it had a soaking recently" what does that mean? Did you drop it in the canal or did it just get wet sitting in the rain.
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Is there any chance of getting shore power for about 48 hrs. A good long slow charge should wake the batteries up and bring them into Healthy Status.
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If you want to detect charging current ONLY then the shunt should ALWAYS be put in the positive lead coming from the alternators. Anywhere else and you will be detecting other currents. The shunt is kind of like a fuse it will get slightly warm at full power rating, If you put it in the negative lead and there is an overcurrent event anywhere on the boat the shunt will overheat and could set fire to something.
I am an off grid solar installer I am used to working with large batteries and large inverters and large currents.
Pictures of my work https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=mykonos+solar+wind
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Me I like all those needles that bounce around much prettier.. Get yourself a few of these connect them everywhere. Only 8 pounds including shipping from Shanghai.
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Dont forget the voltage on the D+ varies depending on charge level of the battery. D+ is fed from the regulator inside the alternator, if you connect both D+'s together without isolating diodes how can the regulators work independently?
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On a diesel engine the pistons come all the way up tight against the cylinder head, there is no room for a slightly open valve.
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On monday I will go to Pontycysyllte Aqueduct to check them out. Probably same company/men.
What should I have done to get better service from my new batteries?
in Boat Equipment
Posted
I edited my post while you were typing to add
Looking at their website they say their AGM batteries are good for 400 cycles and they also say that their AGM batteries will last 4 times longer than the normal batteries which to me means your batteries are only good for 100 cycles or just over 3 months. For that sort of daily use you need Rolls or Trojan batteries as used in most off-grid houses where deep daily discharges are the norm. I have posted before about this.