smileypete
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Posts posted by smileypete
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?Some solar controllers have a load output with over discharge protection. This could be used to charge an old smartphone, which would send a text when the charge source is disconnected, using the app 'E-Robot'.
So when the batteries get over discharged while you are away you get a text message from the boat. ?
Happy Christmas everyone!
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As said, use matching inserts from the same manufacturer, the fittings shouldn't matter. Using straights is a lot better for direct runs, but bear in mind thermal expansion for long runs.
BES have some pretty keen prices if you can order over £40 and take delivery:
https://www.bes.co.uk/15-mm-x-50-m-qual-pex-plastic-barrier-pipe-coil-white
https://www.bes.co.uk/qual-pex-plastic-barrier-straight-pipe-white-15mm-x-3m-19310
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Main options:
1) Clamp meter
2) Struggle?
In the past, only option 2 was available. Seems some of 'the experts' still prefer this, dunno why...
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3 hours ago, CompairHolman said:
Anyone running a small freezer off only solar power that can give us some real idea of what capacity of solar runs what size freezer in the winter months.
We have 460 w of solar, and a small 50 litre ? 240 v freezer which I think is 45 w ? ( I'm going to bond 50 mm insulation board to it to get more efficiency and keep it in my cratch space in the cold ) I don't have the money to buy a 12 v one . Our mooring faces west over open Fields with trees behind to the east.
The big problem may be avoiding idle losses from the inverter.
Probably could run a counter top freezer as a high efficiency fridge though.
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6 hours ago, Tom and Bex said:
Very interesting to see that Bimble kit (although not cheap). I wonder what panel they use?
Don't know but it looks similar to the Navitron Fino one, however that one is only about about 1m2 which is half the size of the Bimble one:
https://www.navitron.org.uk/fino-flat-plate-solar-hot-water-panel
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12 hours ago, smileypete said:
Trojans can work out better value than cheapos long term, but may (will?) underperform if not charged at the higher than typical charge voltages the manufacturer requires.
For tail current I'd monitor hourly, if it's less than 1-2% and less than a third of the previous hour's value I'd consider it fully charged. Of course this assumes the charge voltage is correct and the batts are healthy, ie not hopelessly sulphated!
It's all about effective charging and effective batt monitoring, most problems come about because this is or was missing somewhere along the line...
Oops, I meant more than two thirds of the previous hour's value.
In other words, tail current drops precipitously at first, but then as it declines to a low level it becomes much more stable.
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Trojans can work out better value than cheapos long term, but may (will?) underperform if not charged at the higher than typical charge voltages the manufacturer requires.
For tail current I'd monitor hourly, if it's less than 1-2% and less than a third of the previous hour's value I'd consider it fully charged. Of course this assumes the charge voltage is correct and the batts are healthy, ie not hopelessly sulphated!
It's all about effective charging and effective batt monitoring, most problems come about because this is or was missing somewhere along the line...
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59 minutes ago, WotEver said:
What happens to a battery on float for days on end, do you even know? I’ll tell you, it gets fully charged.
Not quite, that's a classic Gibboism I'm afraid. So much that's misleading in such a short statement!
The leading batt mfrs will carefully detail the right way to charge their batts. If you feel entitled to ignore their wisdom, then any resulting problem isn't their fault - is it?
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Maybe have a couple of 12V FLA batts for 12V pumps, lights; then a 24V lithium pack that runs the big inverter. Charge it with boost converters set to lithium voltages, use a low voltage disconnect and the inverter remote to protect from over discharge.
OK you lose some efficiency but all the charging sources can be fairly conventional. Could even use the lithiums to give the FLAs a full charge when they need it, running the 12V while doing so. And if the lithiums run out of power unexpectedly you still have 12V for basic service.
ETA: Would also need a 12V split charge relay so the lithium charging doesn't flatten the FLAs, but that's no biggie.
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Could also try skinning it with decent 1/4" WBP or marine ('marine') ply.
If the boat is liveaboard it may be that moisture from inside is condensing between the sheets of ply, what's on the inside of the roof?
Maybe try the lumpy water forums for ideas, bear in mind that fresh paint is better than neglected varnish, and covers funky wood nicely. ?
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1 hour ago, cuthound said:
My understanding of the two bank system is where on set of batteries is discharged to load whilst the other set is being charged.
I worked on such a system at the dawn of my career. Keeps the electrons moving and thus prevents sulphation as the battery is either being charged or discharged.
Ideally requires change-over switches, which if to be done under load, will be sprung edge knife switches to minimise and arcs during switching.
Yeah that's pretty much it, use one bank and charge to 85-95%, then really juice the out of use bank by charging to 100% and doing a bit of EQ. After that, just switch usage to the fully charged bank and repeat.
Drawbacks are needing extra space for batts, an extra bank (though a tired existing bank should do) and the biggie, it's far toooo much faffing around for most people.
For those with very good DIY eleccy skills, cheap(er) second user lithiums look to be a viable option when they turn up.
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This guy has gone for lithiums on his narrowboat:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8bkF-v3-Foi9ps9h1D06hA
Quick summary: Much faster recharge times, efficiency, no sulphation or stratification in return for.... boatloads of cash.
ETA: Seems Jono was mentioned in passing at the beginning, his channel is well worth a look.
For those who fully understand FLA with good DIY abilities, the 'two bank' solution of FLAs might overcome the typical problems?
Also for lithiums maybe a 'powerwall' that's recharged by genny or travelpower is another way forward?
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It's rare for domestic fridges to leak refrigerant unless the pipework is damaged, which is rare in itself unless someone attacks the frost in the icebox with a knife.
Without knowing that for sure, the layman guess is probably right only 2-5% of the time if that. Of course everyone thinks that their own snap diagnosis is good.
In the OP's case I'd say it's unrealistic expectations, coupled with oversight of parts at the end of the manual. If the 12V compressor runs about 25W and at typical fridge freezer mains compressor runs about 100W, it's fairly clear which one has far more grunt.
My mains frig will turn a slightly cool beer put in the icebox into an ice cold one in an hour if I run it non stop. That'll do me, well worth about 100Wh.
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Thanks for the replies, had a good laugh at the funny ones.
Happens on Win10 but not XP, so a look at the geeky stuff reveals that the web design falls back on the system font instead of using it's own one, which seems unusual to me.
Invisions own forum acts the same way, but another other invision based forum doesn't, so I guess it's a 'feature' of the default install.
Sorry to say but I hate modern web 'design' with a passion, sometimes.
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On 06/08/2018 at 14:09, Mike the Boilerman said:
This is rubbish and you know it.
What actually happens is users watch the smartgauge display climb towards 100%, then stop charging when it gets there.
Would be nice if while charging above 80-90% it alternates between the estimated SoC and 'tail' and '????' which would actually work OK enough on a 4 digit 7 segment display.
Sure they'd be a lot of WTF is tail?!?! questions, but at least they users would get enlightened before they wrecked their batts.
There could then be a setting to disable the tail reminders, in the manual this would be handily located next to relevant warnings and a clear explanation in a BIG block letters.
In short, Gibbo understood electronics well, but human nature and the art of writing user manuals, not so much.
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On 05/08/2018 at 15:03, cuthound said:
Leaving fridges and freezers (and car air conditioning units) unused is a really bad idea.
The seals on the compressor dry out if the compressor is not run periodically, as they rely on oil mixed with the refridgerant to lubricate them, and without lubrication the refrigerant gas leaks out.
I suggest the OP contacts a fridge engineer who will re-gas the fridge freezer.
Sorry but fridge compressors have almost zero in common with car air con compressors, other than they compress refrigerant gas. Where are the mechanical seals on a domestic fridge compressor? ?
People often mis-diagnoise the need for regassing fridges as it's the first 'expert conclusion' they mistakenly jump to, but it's pretty rare in practice and there's plenty other possibilities.
Back to the OPs question, a look in the manual reveals the following statements:
http://www.shoreline-marine.co.uk/admin/document_library/RRInstructions_BD35ONLY.v21_150618.pdf
'Note - These 12/24 Volt DC freezers are designed to store pre-frozen foods, not to freeze down large quantities of fresh foods. Expect the motor compressor to run for very long periods without cutting off if you attempt to freeze quantities of fresh foods.
Caution: If the room temperature starts to rise above +25ºc the motor compressor will begin to run for longer periods and consequently require more battery power. Room temperatures above +30ºc could result in correct storage temperatures not being maintained inside the appliance. '
The second para to me implies that when you reach temps above 30°C in high summer, the compressor may well need to run 24/7...
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Some good info here.
IF the objective is reliable long term power via lead acid batts, then the boater needs to learn how to effectively charge and effectively monitor said batteries.
Otherwise it's in the lap of the gods, who may not be so magnanimous. Though plentiful solar can delay their wrath, at least in summertime...
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Somewhere along the line it seems the font for normal text has changed to a much less readable one?
If so I'd be interested to know why... The new font is very 'skinny' and even when zoomed in it isn't that readable.
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If you're living aboard 'off grid', a reasonable amount of solar is a bit of a no-brainer these days.
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On 18/06/2018 at 13:51, Richard10002 said:
No chance of me going to Braunston.
I dont go far from Stretford
Since bringing the boat to The Bridgewater in 2011, I've been as far as Dover Lock towards Wigan, and just past Warrington in the other direction.
The first readings were 16 months ago, probably a few months after I noticed the degradation of capacity. Loads of equalising at 15.5V had no effect, and regular checks on capacity confirmed that they remained at about 200Ah, (rather than the nominal 450Ah when new). As I said, it was only a few weeks ago when I sensed and calculated an apparent increase in capacity, and took the Specific Gravitys. I took the last set of readings as a matter of interest, after fitting the new ones.
I have to admit that, sometime last year, before I got my 500w of solar in September, Smiley Pete suggested eeking them out over this summer, and see how they react to continuous daily charging to full and beyond.... seems he could have been right - but I am very impatient, and like new things
As above, I'll keep hold of them for the time being, and think about creating a space for a second bank in parallel.
Best thing would be to learn to effectively charge and effectively monitor whatever lead acid batts you have, or you'll be better off with cheap disposable leisures replaced every year or two.
I guess that the 15.5V at deep winter temps was hardly tickling the Trojans, plus it was only for relatively short intervals. Good to hear they're performing much better, if they're surplus to requirements maybe someone else will pay around half of retail for them, still a lot better than scrap value.
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There's a good description of equalisation in The Battery FAQ:
http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq9.htm#equalization
The optional EQUALIZATION stage is a controlled 5% to 10% absorption overcharge to equalize and balance the voltage and specific gravity in each cell. Equalizing can reverse the build-up of the chemical effects like electrolyte stratification where acid concentration is greater at the bottom of the battery. It also helps remove sulfate crystals that might have built up on the surface or in the pores of the plates.
Bearing in mind the important safety precautions when handling lead acid batts, when EQ is being done you'd want to see the all the batt cells bubbling nicely by the end of the EQ charge.
I do think the Trojan type batts need effective monitoring and charging to get the best from them; it does seem that sometimes people half hope they can get away with less, but often it doesn't work out well enough for them in the long term. Maybe reasonable quality leisures would give a bit better result overall in this case, or in the long term lithiums will become economical enough.
Perhaps part of the problem is that a canal boat is more of a hobby that competes with many other interests, and not so critical to survival like a blue water sailboat is.
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20 hours ago, The Boat Studio said:
Hi thanks for commenting so you mean wire the fridge thermostat to switch the inverter on?
This all sounds good but I am not sure I understand fully! Can you explain a bit more how it would work? So you would use the inverter for the initial surge yes? and then only when the thermostat registers it needs more power to cool down does it turn the inverter on again?
Thanks that is handy also good to know that we should be looking for an 800 watt continuous rating.
It is ballpark though.
For a better idea plug it into a power monitor, set the display to amps, switch the fridge off and back on after a couple of seconds while the compressor is running. Repeat every couple of mins until the compressor stalls and you get a high current reading. Multiply by 240 to get an idea of the continuous rating the inverter needs to be.
Or, for your 80W fridge, just get a 1000W inverter to be on the safe side.
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There's cheaper pure sine inverters too:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/1000W-power-inverter-battery-electricity/dp/B00AEVHTNG
Also there's some really cheapo ones out there but most (all?) of these are best avoided.
For a ballpark estimate, a typical inverter should have a continuous rating which is 10x the wattage of the fridge.
Mastervolt and victron etc are good but somewhat over rated as they're not 100% reliable for everybody.
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For big installs there's double pole solar DC isolators available:
https://www.electricalguys.co.uk/salzer-dc-isolator-for-solar-installs-h226-81400-710n1.html
If you squint at the pic you can just make out that each pole uses 2 contacts in series, I guess it's just a 4 pole switch rewired appropriately. For a modest 36V or 72V install a standard 2 pole MCB might work just fine.
More info: http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=95968
Edit: Squinting at the above pic in this topic it looks like the breakers are rated 125V DC so that should be fine for the solar side.
Electrical YouTube videos
in Boat Equipment
Posted
Adam Welch is good too, he covers some of the Tracer/EP Solar stuff and cheaper MPPTs:
https://youtube.com/channel/UCm5sG3-BXQZfVy3st2T_XKg