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Tony1

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Everything posted by Tony1

  1. Thanks for the detailed reply James- my takeaway from the 'gas-free' discussion is that its probably expensive and impractical IF you want to run a full size electric cooker (with an oven). BUT if you are ok with other methods (air fryers, induction hobs etc), then it becomes a lot more do-able. And as you say, there are many cruising boats that make it work. In fact our very own ditchcrawler has done so happily for decades, with no issues. But all that said, I really like and prefer the convenience and cheapness of gas (e.g. one 13kg bottle lasts me almost 6 months). And on a cool Autumn morning, 5 minutes of a gas hob running can take the chill from the boat very quickly, without needing to fire up the stove or the CH and wait 20 minutes for any heat. But yes, you do make a very fair case for going gas free. However, you should be aware that it is actually heresy to support gas free boating. Therefore it is my duty to report you to the Boating Inquisition, so you can expect a knock on your boat at 3am very soon. There is still a chance to recant your evil ways and return to the gas fold- but if you refuse, you will be burned upon a pile of overcharged ebike lithium batteries (the nasty ones). I can only apologise to the OP and the forum in general for my part in spoiling the tone of the discussion. I was trying to have a relevant follow-up discussion with another poster, after the OP had got the decision she needed from the thread. I did ignore the first insulting post, but unfortunately on the second one I felt I should respond, or else I might get the same individual feeling he could make offensive replies to any post I might make, with no consequences. But of course, ultimately there's just no point in online aggression. I've done it myself here, and afterwards regretted my rudeness- and as a victim of aggression myself on this occasion, I made the mistake of carrying on the exchange and spoiling the thread. Lesson learned.
  2. What? What the hell are you even on about? Seriously mate, get some help with anger management. We all fly off the handle sometimes (and I'm as guilty as anyone else), but 75% of your posts seem to be attacking newbies for being newbies- or just insulting people. It's really unpleasant to see, which is why I think its time to block your posts- but you are really not helping yourself with all this anger and aggression. Either way, I've had enough of these schoolyard style exchanges- enjoy your evening. You won't be getting any further replies from me.
  3. I don't know about living the dream, but I'm guessing I am a much happier person than you will ever be. For what its worth, I have 1400 watts of solar and 400Ah of lithium batteries, and a very good charging system, with both diesel CH and a SF stove. So yes- there's not that much more that I want or need to make my boat very comfortable and very efficient for year round cruising. But thanks for asking.
  4. Get a life mate. You can't seriously think that the bile you spew out on this site is helping you or anyone else? Congratulations on your decades of boating experience. If any of that had made you even a teeny bit less spiteful and unpleasant, you might be worth listening to.
  5. The OP has already decided not buy this boat. I am asking James a question that he and I find interesting to discuss- I am not trying to advise the OP. Since most of your contribution so far has been insults, I wonder if you might be so kind as to wind in your deeply unpleasant neck by a few yards? Cheers.
  6. Well its a fair cop guvnor. I had no idea tbh, so I did a quick google search, and found this: https://www.energysage.com/electricity/house-watts/how-many-watts-does-an-electric-oven-and-stove-use/ Alas, I trusted google - again...
  7. I think the OP has dropped the idea of buying this boat, but I find it an interesting topic anyway, so I'm interested in your thoughts on some of these challenges: My issue with going gas free is based on the scenario of a boater using a normal electric cooker, including an oven. So if you were preparing a meal, you might want the oven on, using say 4000 watts. Plus at least one hob at say 1500 watts. That's about 5500 watts- so you need a big inverter, which is going to be very expensive. The other issue I have is buying a big enough lithium battery bank that you can pull out 5500 watts from them (so maybe 400+ amps at 12/13 volts?) And the third issue for me is- how do you get all that charge back into the batteries? I'm guessing that a 4000 watt oven running for 45 mins might use 240Ah of charge, maybe? That's an awful lot of charge to generate, even with a travel power. And that's just for one meal. Now if you were to drop the idea of a full electric cooker, and look at things like air fyrers and induction hobs, you could reduce the energy needs for cooking, but by how much? I just have a suspicion that the cost of the diesel fuel needed to generate all the charge required for cooking would be more expensive than using gas, and the cost of the electrical setup need to handle all the power would be really expensive. That's not to say that you cant run a hob (or two) and a microwave and a kettle from batteries, of course. It definitely has a role in some cooking. But many people who enjoy their cooking will want a capable cooking setup, and will be looking at a full electric cooker with an oven. And for them, I personally feel that gas is the cheapest and most effective option.
  8. My guess would be no- you'll end up paying more in the end by hiring professionals yourself. It might be different if you could learn some skills, buy lots of tools and materials, and do some of the fitout work yourself. But even then, it would take a LOT longer to complete the fitout. Which is understandable- you might be doing a given fitout job for the first time in your life, whereas the boat builder's guys have done that same job half a dozen times so far this year, and they will have better tools, and other professionals' advice and experience just a shout away.. But that said, I do remember seeing a builder who would fit out a new boat to various stages as per your preference. Their price list (I think) said it was £3500 to install a SF stove with your new boat (and that was in 2019), whereas you could hire a professional to install one for a fair bit less than that. So there will be the odd exception. But there is a sort of common sense principle that might apply, which is that if any installed component is faulty with a completed boat from a builder, you only have one company to go back to and get it fixed. With a dozen different installers involved, I feel there might be potential for them to blame each other if things go wrong with their installed gear. Also, you'll be the one responsible for maintaining an overall plan that allows all the different jobs to be done in the right sequence, and with no conflict in terms of them needing to use the same location or space to install something- or maybe covering up an area with wood panels when another installer might want to get access to that area to install their thing. I wouldn't fancy the hassle of it, personally speaking, other than maybe for a few items where the boatbuilder's price seem to be very expensive.
  9. I think CRT are missing an opportunity to shift the continuous moorers. They should pay you to rock up in the middle of the 48 hour moorings at Nantwich (the ones that people seem to stay on for a month or more), and practice trombone for four hours straight, every morning and evening. It would be a sort of musical enforcement method- nobody would able to stand the racket for more than 48 hours. This would involve some degree of risk, to both yourself and the trombone (and quite possibly the boat too)- but perhaps they could add a premium to your salary to reflect the danger involved with the post.
  10. Well that's interesting. I'm sure that's a typo, and they really meant 4x90Ah lithium, so 360Ah in total. But it is lithium, which is good, and you do have an excellent charging system for them with the travelpower unit. Tbh that doesnt sound like a lot of battery capacity for a totally gas-free boat, if you were out on the cut, but it would be enough if you had gas and a SF stove. Given that it only has 500 engine hours, I'm betting its spent most its life in a marina on hookup, with the odd cruise every few weeks. My boat was approaching 6 years old when I bought it, and it only had 550 engine hours, so that's not too unusual. In theory the engine should be in great nick, but you'd have to check the servicing records if you were interested in it. It's a shame you don't have someone knowledgeable like a Tony Brooks, who could take a look at the boat for you and give you an idea whether there would be any complications in doing the gas and stove installs that are needed. Its possible that you could pay £5k to get that done and and end up with a boat you really like, but its also possible there could be hidden snags with doing that upgrade work, and costs could end up higher, e.g. maybe you need a proper gas locker or some welding. That's where the risk is. As I said above, for me everything depends on how low you can drive the sale price, and how the sale price compares to a similar boat that is already fully equipped. For me, it would have to be at least 8k cheaper than a normal boat of the same type and age, before I'd even think about it.
  11. What I meant by lithium complicating things was that you then start to think about where your money will be best spent. For example, you might spend 2k on a lithium battery bank (plus suitable charging system)- but if cash is limited, that 2k might be better spent on the gas install, and postpone the lithiums for a while. But tbh, ideally I'd want both things. But you're right that everything depends on the OPs future cruising pattern. My guess was that with a daughter (who would be of working age), there might be a need to base the boat within a say 30 mile cruising radius for much of the time, to stay within reach of work, friends and family. With that as the operating scenario, you would be looking at a pattern of moving the boat (and thus running the engine) once in every 5 or 6 days. Maybe even once every 2 weeks. For all the other days you still need hot water, and you cant really use the Eberspacher in summer for hot water- the boat would get unbearably hot by the time the water is heated up. I find the CH is best in say April/May and then Sept, to take the morning chill off the boat without having to fire up the SF stove. But even then, most mornings 30 mins of the Eberspacher is enough to warm the boat up, which isn't enough time to heat the water. So for me personally, the ideal solution is solar for hot water between May and Sept, and gas for cooking. You could probably fit up to 2kw of panels on a narrowboat roof if you really pushed it, so that might give enough solar power for cooking and hot water during summer. But you still need a solution for the cooking from say mid-Sept to mid-April. The engine does have that travelpower setup, so it would charge lithium batteries very quickly for normal use, and that could in theory power a cooker. But if you wanted to provide enough charge for cooking as well as fridge/laptops etc, that might double or treble your engine running hours. And I dont think a genny is the best solution. It seems daft to be fetching petrol from nearby garages in 15L containers, and using a genny to charge the batteries at say 50 amps (so maybe five hours genny running each day) , when the travel power will charge them so much faster. That travelpower would work really well with lithiums, and if you use gas for cooking, you wouldnt need to overuse it. You could stick to an hour of engine running each day in winter. I just dont currently see electricity as a practicable energy source for all of the cooking (although a kettle, toaster and microwave work fine), with or without lithiums. The real challenge for electric powered cooking is to get enough charge into the batteries in cooler months (plus a big enough inverter to power the cooker). In winter, the added engine running hours to charge batteries for cooking, and the extra diesel fuel used, would probably make it uneconomical when compared to gas. I think it would be a very brave step for the OP to even consider using an electric cooker without shore power. Sincere apologies if this sounds harsh James, as I'm sure you mean well, but I don't think it would be wise for members here to suggest that a newbie might be ok using an electric cooker on a cruising boat. If permanently on shore power, thats a different ball game, but my assumption was the OP will not be based in a marina. Didne, this thread from June might give you some more info about the major challenges of a gas-free boat:
  12. To be honest James, introducing the idea of lithium batteries does complicate the question a bit. But that said, if I were a newbie I would be looking to swap to lithium asap anyway- regardless of anything else I did with the boat. I think given that they'll probably last 15-20 years, they are becoming competitive on price with lead acids. Its kind of a no-brainer really. And as a liveaboard, if I were the OP I would automatically plan on upgrading to at least 1000w of panels- at the least. I have 1400 watts of panels, and in the summer they give enough energy for most cooking, but I choose to use the excess solar power for heating water, which saves running the engine when not cruising. So my personal preference would be to use the solar for hot water, but to still to get a gas cooker installed. And to get lithium batteries regardless. It was said further up the thread, contingency systems are great on a boat. There's a cost involved as well- using the engine to generate the charge for cooking (which you'd have to do in winter) would use a lot of diesel, and add many running hours to the engine- so then you've got more frequent services and more engine wear- which you can avoid by installing gas. But that's only my personal take on it, others will have different priorities etc.
  13. I agree with you that its at least worth further investigation. But I do think a lot depends on the price of this boat compared to a boat of the same age and size, that already has gas and a SF stove. If this boat is 10k cheaper than a normal boat, then there's probably enough of a cost saving that its worth buying it and paying for a gas and SF stove install etc. Lets say a SF stove plus install will cost 2.5k, and a gas install plus a cooker will cost what- £2k? So the OP might need to spend 4-5k for the bare essentials. And I feel it would be wise with this boat's unusual setup to allow an extra contingency budget- but bear in mind any new boat will have some costs involved in doing some changes you want made. So if this boat is only 5k cheaper than a standard boat, then there is no incentive at all to take a chance on it. In fact think you could probably drive a hard bargain with this one. I suspect somebody who has the gas and other skills needed will probably snap this up, do the work, and make a bit of profit on it. But with this boat, the whole decision is based on the price, and the price of the work needed. I imagine both big tasks are fairly quick too. My SF stove took 3 days to install. The OP likes it a lot, and that is also a factor- but not one that should encourage risk-taking. This is a risk for a newbie- it would be great if there was a marine professional who could take a look at the current setup, and give advice on the feasibility and possible complications involved with the install work. ETA- there is also this query around the PCA issue. Maybe the OP could just email the BSS people and ask?
  14. Tony1

    Cable Crimper

    The hammer crimper thing does squash the lug a bit, but I've found I can still get the rubber sleeves on- the cross sectional area won't alter, and the rubber can conform to its slightly flatter shape. Using just a hammer would flatten everything quite a bit!
  15. I think that is true with many upgrades, but I disagree in this case. I think the base value of that boat with its current setup will always be a couple of thousand lower than it would be if it had a stove and gas install. You're not going to get all or even most of your money back, but with those features in place, its always going to fetch a higher price than it would without them (until it gets much older).
  16. Tony1

    Cable Crimper

    That is also my weapon of choice for crimping. I will say though, I had to be rather dextrous, because for best results my technique was to hold the cable in the lug using two fingers (with a little bit of pressure so it didn't slip out), and I then used a third finger (from the same hand) to brace the lug against the cable. Holding the two things together seemed to produce good strong crimps. I did get a cheap hydraulic type but if I used the correct size die, the crimp would pull apart with minimal force. Using a smaller die means there is some flashing left on the lug as said above. With the extra hassle of having to remove the flashing, if I'm doing a job with lots of crimps, I find it quicker and easier to use the hammer crimper.
  17. I can totally see why you've asked about the feasibility of the boats current setup, because at only 7 years old, many of the boat systems will still be in good condition and not needing fixing/replacement for a while. But I've tried living aboard using only diesel CH (you can forget about the electric fire if you're not on shore power), and it was awful. I used the CH until mid-November before I got a SF stove fitted, and it instantly transformed the whole experience. The thing is, by adding a gas cooker and SF stove, you'll be increasing the value of the boat- so its not 'dead' money, so to speak. You'll get a proportion of that money back when you sell. If there are lots of other things that attract you about this boat, I would ask around and scour the internet to get some estimates for a gas installation and a SF stove (a DEFRA approved one, of course). Getting good boat professionals can be a minefield, so look long and hard at any recommendations. I've no idea of the cost of those two jobs, but if you can get them done AND the total price is still less than the price of a normal boat (i.e. one with those things already present), then it doesnt look too bad a plan- you'll have a brand new stove and gas setup that probably wont need any attention for years (apart from servicing). But there are some things that give pause, as has been said. The lack of 12v electrics would might be a problem for most future buyers, but I'm sort of ok with it, as I only use 12v for the lights anyway- my fridge, kettle, toaster, and most other stuff are 240v. So get an estimate for installing some 12v electrics for lights etc, and add that to the remedial work bill. But for me, that would be a job that could be put off till next summer. The engine at 7 years old might still be in very good condition, but it might have lots of idle running hours due to having to generate lots of charge, so maybe not as great as you might have first hoped. It sounds as if the travelpower setup could do with checking to make sure its hasn't caused any crankshaft issues- for all you know, there could be a problem brewing and that's one of the reasons why they're selling it. If there is a gas locker in bow then great, no extra cost for that. I don't think I would personally bother with doing all the work needed, and running the risk that there will be other unforeseen jobs added in due to the boat's unusual systems, because the whole thing with this is that ideally you end up with a boat you really like, with the systems fitted that you need, BUT also at a good price. If the costs start adding up, the deal has lost its big positive point. I can understand people thinking- why take the chance and go through the hassle of it all? ETA- another thing to check- if the boat's been cruising a lot in colder weather it will have had to rely on the diesel CH, so the Eberspacher might have lots more operating hours on it than a similar unit on a boat with a SF stove. So there could be a potential hidden cost in a few years time, depending on its current condition.
  18. I agreed my purchase during the 2020 lockdown, and I was based in Newcastle- so I wasn't able to travel quickly to view boats. I also bought the first boat I viewed, mainly because it was young enough that I wasn't too worried about problems, and the price was pretty low. It wasn't perfect, but it was in very good condition and the price was too good to ignore. The decision made itself really. Maybe if I'd viewed more boats I'd have started to feel the emotional pull that people sometimes speak of. My advice to the OP would be to spend some time looking on apollo duck at various types and lengths of boat, and try to get some idea of what features might be important. As a newbie you wont get it right first time- there will be some things you think are important initially, but when you move aboard you realise are not a big deal at all. And the other way round. But its still worth gathering ideas about what features you think you might want. And of course, you can start asking questions here about the different features you are curious about- solar panel sizes, batteries, central heating, different types of stern, washing machines, electrics, pros and cons of different boat lengths, costs of making changes/upgrades- you name it. There will be lots of unknowns you'll be keen to get more information about, and I'm guessing you'll be doing that long before arriving the in UK.
  19. Not wishing to sound patronising with this at all, but even with my limited experience, I think the approach of setting a 2 or 3 week deadline on your purchase is one that could backfire in a big way. The cost of rushing a purchase and possibly getting the wrong boat, or a bad boat, could end up being much higher than say, paying for accommodation somewhere cheap, and thus having more time to look carefully at each boat. I've heard of some people who waited 2 or 3 years for their perfect boat to come up for sale, and for me that would have been far too long. It will help that you will be looking at boats in advance of getting back to the UK, and maybe you can negotiate and arrange viewings in advance. But think about what you might have to do in those 3 weeks: physically travel to them and view the shortlist of boats, negotiate on the shortlist of preferred options, agree a price (subject to survey), get the survey(s) done, then maybe negotiate a reduction based on what the survey finds, and then make a final decision...? And if the survey reveals something that looks very bad, and the offer price cant be reduced to account for fixing it, then you've got no boat and you're back to the shortlist to make an offer on your second choice boat (plus looking at other boats that have come on sale since your first sweep), and maybe get another survey done on your second choice boat- and so it could go on...
  20. I'm rubbish at DIY, so I decided to prioritise getting the youngest boat I could, in the hope of avoiding large bills for things like engine repairs, hull repairs, or general repairs to the systems such as water or electricals. So I compromised on size and ended up buying at 50 footer, which has major space/storage challenges for a liveaboard (for me anyway), compared to a 57+ footer. So you might have to choose where you want or need to compromise the most. If you're good at DIY, or learn to be, then you can save a lot of money. E.g. an engine service is usually pretty straightforward and the parts cost maybe £50-60 (depending on the engine), but I paid a professional do my first one, and that cost over £150. The temptation is to spend the whole budget on the purchase itself, but I would suggest you put at least £5k aside (10k if poss), as you will want to do upgrades or fix things that you didnt realise were broken. Depending on what you buy, its not madly unlikely that you will have to pay for an engine service, new batteries, and maybe one or two other bits that might be failed, or starting to fail- plus labour to install the new parts. On a 20-30 year old boat there might be questions about the future lifespan of the engine if its not been looked after well, and a new replacement engine can cost £8k or more. If there is major rust in the hull or base plate, an over-plating job might cost up to £10k. There might be heavy rust around the water tank, or in the engine bay. So there are some potentially big scary bills to fix the major problems, and if I were buying a boat of that age I would spend a couple of days inspecting every inch of the interior, and get a detailed survey of the hull. If its not prying too much, I would suggest you state your approx budget, and the features you think are important, and the more experienced members here (of which I am not one!) will probably offer detailed advice on things to look out for, likely fixup costs, that sort of thing.
  21. Tony1

    Wi-Fi

    I'm very similar- I don't watch any normal TV, only via the internet. I ruled out a dual-SIM on cost grounds tbh- I can use my EE phone as a backup SIM and hotspot if needed. But once we are into November and the visitor moorings switch to 14 days, I may well spend a week opposite Anderton marina, and without my O2 SIM that wouldn't be an option for me, since i get almost nothing from EE as you know. Having the second SIM occasionally allows that flexibility to moor in locations that you would otherwise cruise past, but whether it can be justified is down to the individual. In your shoes I might be temped to try a PAYG SIM from Vodafone (or maybe O2 or Three) in the router, so that if you do spend the odd night on board (ie before starting a cruise next morning), you'll have some internet. It's either that or go out throttling squirrels in the woods for entertainment.
  22. Tony1

    Wi-Fi

    The thing is though, I bet many boaters would grudgingly put up with a slow service, as long they can get something. So at least you can read emails for example, and maybe watch a bit of video. Its the total absence of any usable signal that is the deal breaker for me. So when the time comes, I wont be put off using Three, as long as I'm satisfied they have good rural coverage. But Lycamobile sounds like it'll be no use at all to me. I have pondered dropping O2 and using EE in the router as well as in my phone, but in the Anderton area I would have been scuppered if I'd done that- so for me, there is still case for O2 (or perhaps Three) as a backup to EE.
  23. Tony1

    Wi-Fi

    Thanks, that's useful info. I imagine that most boaters could live with a cheap piggybacker provider, if the only penalty was that it gave slightly slower service than the parent provider. But patchy rural coverage (like the Lycamobile setup) probably wouldn't be considered very useful for many boaters. So the devil really is in the detail with these things. Nowadays I keep a SIM-remover mini poker thingy close to the router for this very reason. Trying to find one of these tiny tools- even if you can remember where you last put it- can be a right pain. I've been in a few places where the O2 SIM didnt work even with the mast, but the EE SIM in my phone still got some signal, when outside the boat. So yes, I have left the phone on the roof wrapped in a plastic bag (usually under a solar panel), or out in the cratch. I wouldn't do it in a place with heavy footfall on the towpath, and never in a built up area, but in quiet/rural places I have risked putting the phone on the roof! If thats not enough, I then try the EE SIM in the router, so that it gets the extra help from the mast. The things we do for a bit of internet....
  24. Tony1

    Wi-Fi

    Thanks for that clarification.
  25. Tony1

    Wi-Fi

    Yes, that's pretty much what I was saying- EE is the one I've found to work in the most locations, and generally with the best signal. But none are infallible (eg the Anderton area)- and that's why I also have an O2 SIM, which works (albeit indifferently) at Anderton and Barnton. But having a second SIM is clearly a more expensive solution, and not everyone will think its worth the extra cost. I think its about £25/month for an O2 SIM with say 250Gb of data, and that one is my 'workhorse' provider, as its cheap and it works reasonably (with the mast) in most places. But for the OP. it will depend on his cruising patterns, preferences, and budget. People do report good results with the piggybacking providers, and they are cheaper, but I think when trying to make a decision, its important to be clear on how far and in what areas someone cruises. Someone living aboard in Anderton might say O2 is their best option, but someone who travels more widely might say EE.
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