Up The Creek

Apologies again for tardy response to suggestions; I'm only at the boat once a week at present. I think you may have put your finger on the problem. Yes, there is a sense that the frequency is changing/slowing as well as the volume; in a way, the sound seems to change from a loud, persistent 'buzz' to a quieter 'croaking snore' (hope that makes sense!) as the revs increase and, when I last tested, the noise disappeared completely for a split second or so at higher revs. And the alternator warning light is glowing slightly with the engine running. I need to try what Tony suggests (although it may be beyond me!) but, in the meantime, does this sound like a potentially serious fault which needs urgent attention? Thanks again for your advice. Bob

Apologies for the delay in replying – I’ve been away from the boat for a few days. Ref. the suggestions and queries: I doubt that the boat builder added an additional sensor or alarm, in that he personally came out to service the boat late last year and was also stuck for ideas. Yes – the warning lights (oil and battery; no temperature) come on at ignition and then immediately go off. If I increase the revs to over 2,000, the volume of the buzzing decreases significantly to become almost – but not totally - inaudible. Re. the confusion between the ‘whistle’ and the ‘buzz’, they do emanate from exactly the same ‘black box’ (Kingstate KPE-209), but the sounds are very different, and they are never audible simultaneously (ie the initial whistle is transformed into a buzz once the engine starts, and vice versa once I turn the engine off). Hope that helps?! Thanks. Bob

Thanks John and Iain. I'll do the checks you suggest. The alarm when in "run' position is a very different (whistling) sound from the loud buzzing I've been getting once the engine starts, which I have simply assumed is an alarm. Does that make any sense? Regards. Bob

Some advice would be welcome on a recent problem. I recently acquired a Sea Otter with a 27HP Vetus engine. A fault has developed where a quite noisy buzzing (which I assume to be the alarm) comes from within the control panel as soon as I switch the engine on, and only disappears when the ignition is turned off. A marine engineer came to look at it, but was unable to fathom the problem; his best guess was that there was a fault with the oil pressure sensor, which I don’t know how to check. He could find nothing seriously amiss - the oil warning light only glows momentarily, as normal, when I turn the engine on. Any ideas? How to check the oil pressure sensor? Any other obvious possibilities? Many thanks. Bob

Many thanks for all your advice. We will probably give it a go, and make sure we complete the trip before 4 November. One other point; I might need to tackle the first third of the journey single-handed. Any particular issues there? At 36' the boat is not particularly long, and has a bow thruster.

We are in the middle of purchasing a 36' Sea Otter, and need to transport it from the Middle Level Navigation (near Peterborough) to The Thames (Shepperton) at the end of October, or sometime in November. We are thinking of cruising from the Middle Level via the Nene/Grand Union/Thames. It's not an ideal time of year to be taking a boat on a 2-3 week trip, but it would save us quite a lot of money compared to lorry transport, and would probably be fun. Any views on why we should/should not do it? We are moderately experienced boaters (but usually - wimpishly - only on the Thames in summer!). Thanks for any advice.

Thank you all. Batteries are from CPC; they are unnamed ......... The 80 ah over 5 hours (average 16 amps) comprised the usual evening load, for me: a fridge freezer, a few ceiling and side lights, plus TV/radio. I agree it's time for expert help (including legal), which I am currently arranging. When/if these problems are finally resolved, I promise to post the outcome on the forum! Bob

Thanks, Dave. Yes, the hydrometer is a little more difficult to use than I had expected, but I'm fairly sure that only a very small percentage of readings would be out by more than an infinitesimal amount. Am usually quite good at spotting the bullshitters (inability to write coherent English is often one sign!) but, hey, they are all trying to help......... Ref. solicitors, I had tried to get this taken forward as part of my insurance legal cover, but the company of solicitors refused to do so because the policy for legal cover was not taken out on the day the vessel was purchased (yes, you read that correctly). As my brokers say, with concern, to the BMF: "any of our clients that purchase this legal cover after purchasing their vessel - which a great many do - would not be covered". Worrying. The BMF were unable to help. Solicitors will not take this on a "no win, no fee" basis as the value of the claim would be less than £5,000. I am reluctant to take this forward at my own expense, until I am sure of my ground. What "potential holes" do you see? (Jay: I had mentioned the Sale of Goods Act - goods must be fit for purpose - in a previous post, and have reminded the builders of their responsibilities under it). Chris: although both the electrician here at the marina, and another Forum member, feel that the cabling/connections are not the source of the problem, it's a fair point about absence of photos which I said I would post. I use an IPAD (no flash), and have no PC Internet connection at present, and don't think it's possible to post photos with that combination (?). My problem, but that's the reason for the delay. Last point, as I think we are coming to the end of the road on this (sound of cheering all round!): may I offer a heartfelt 'thank you' to all who have tried to help me with this problem, and particularly to Dave, Nick and Tony, who gave so much of their free time. It really has cheered me up to find so many kind people willing to offer their expertise to those who are 'challenged' in this area. If any of you happen to be on the Kingston part of the Thames, there are some excellent pubs around here, and the drinks are most certainly on me! It's good to be part of this Forum. Bob

Oops, sorry, the table did not appear as I had constructed it! Try a different way. The numbers 1-6 refer to the individual batteries: 1. Old SG range: 1.220-1.255. New SG range: 1.225-1.250. No. cells which increased by more than 0.05: 3. No. cells which decreased by more than 0.05: 0. 2. Old SG range: 1.225-1.260. New SG range: 1.235-1.245. No. cells which increased by more than 0.05: 2. No. cells which decreased by more than 0.05: 2 3. Old SG range: 1.230-1.260. New SG range: 1.240-1.260. No. cells which increased by more than 0.05: 4. No. cells which decreased by more than 0.05: 1 4. Old SG range: 1.225-1.250. New SG range: 1.240-1.250. No. cells which increased by more than 0.05: 3. No. cells which decreased by more than 0.05: 0. 5. Old SG range: 1.230-1.250. New SG range: 1.240-1.250. No. cells which increased by more than 0.05: 1. No. cells which decreased by more than 0.05: 0. 6. Old SG range: 1.225-1.250. New SG range: 1.245-1.250 . No. cells which increased by more than 0.05: 3. No. cells which decreased by more than 0.05: 0 Apols. Bob

Thanks for this, Pete, and for your previous posts. Yes, I think it will be very difficult ever to know what caused the overcharging last time but, although I will still pursue it, I am far more concerned about getting things sorted for the future. Regards. Bob Well it did get to float eventually this morning, after I had taken all the load off. Not sure I am using my (new!) clamp meter properly, but the amp reading I got from it was 0.8. Maybe, as you suggest, there is a default minimum to keep it at absorption so long. Have asked Victron. After a further 3 hours equalisation today (4 hours in total), this is a summary of the changes which resulted: Battery. SG Range. No. cells SG increase No. cells SG decrease Old* New. of + 0.05. of + 0.05 1. 1.220-1.255. 1.225-1.250. 3. 0 2. 1.225-1.260. 1.235-1.245. 2. 2 3. 1.230-1.260. 1.240-1.260. 4. 1 4. 1.225-1.250. 1.240-1.250. 3. 0 5. 1.230-1.250. 1.240-1.250. 1. 0 6. 1.225-1.250. 1.245-1.250. 3. 0 * before equalisation. So, a variable picture, mildly encouraging that in all batteries the minimum SG increased, but in some cells the SG actually went down after being equalised. In none did the maximum increase; in one case it decreased. Re. voltage: after equalisation and taking the batteries off the shoreline for a few hours, the voltage readings dropped dramatically just as before (see my first post) i.e. from 12.65 down to 10.2 volts (using Victron Monitor) after drawing 80 amps (from fully charged) in just over 5 hours; each individual battery also gave exactly the same reading of 10.2v. Taking all load off then led to an increase in the Monitor reading to 12.37v, with each individual battery also reading 12.39v. Any other interpretation would be interesting. Worth trying the equalisation for a few more hours? I feel I am flogging the proverbial dead (albeit happily equalised.......) equine. Bob

Good idea. I had asked once for suggestions for an expert local to me (Thames, at Surbiton) who might be able to advise, but no recommendations were forthcoming. And yes, as has been said before, if/when action is taken against the builders, I will almost certainly need an 'expert report' by my side. I now have the equipment (hydrometer and multimeter) to take any necessary readings in advance. I would like to first try to complete the equalisation operation (am in regular contact with Victron) and take on board some of the previous posts but, even if the condition of the batteries improves, I will still have very little faith in the stability of the electrical system, particularly if the recent spate of tripping/shut downs continues. Not sure where Chris Gibson is based (Midlands?), but hopefully he would be able to help, or at least suggest someone more local. Thanks. Bob

Right. Did have a fairly small load on, but everything turned off now. Monitor (reading 'I') has been showing amps going into battery as a constant zero today. That, I think I recall, is usually the case when it is also reporting the battery as fully charged; voltage reading (at absorption) is still showing 14.7. Electrician at marina assures me what I am doing is not the cause of all my electrics tripping out three times this evening! Bob

Have taken on board points about safety, temperature, and danger of damaging electrical equipment. Thanks. Will be pursuing further equalisation as soon as I can, but it's amazing how long the charger is taking to move from absorption to float (where I understand it needs to be before I can start the operation). After switching off the charger briefly while testing the ('fully charged') batteries, it took 8 hours to revert to float. Another thing to confuse me! Bob

Thanks Dave. Doesn't sound like rubbish to me ("In the land of blind.........."), and trying the suggested equalisation seems to have achieved a consensus. Victron say it's worth a try, too, and it's fairly easy to do with my Victron set up. I'm still at a loss to see how we might have left batteries discharged for a few days, as we are so rarely off the shoreline, but that possibility does seem consistent with the train of events. So, I tried equalisation this evening, and a sample of cells showed, as a result, an increase in SG for some of the apparently weaker cells (e.g from 1.225 to 1.250), and also for some of the stronger ones (from 1.250 to 1.260 etc). Some showed no change at all. That would seem to support your comment that the equalisation does have some limited effect, and is thus worth trying again? Your previous post suggested a few hours, so maybe try it a couple more times? (the Victron automatically stops the equalisation after around an hour). Or is the idea to keep going until I get all, or most, of the cells up to 1.265 or so (if that is possible)? Have also reset the Tail Current to 1%. One other point: after equalising/hammering away at 15.8 volts for an hour or so, the charger returns to float mode, and of course is then at 100% SOC, but (under a load of around 10 amps), it then rumbles away at 14+ volts for at least two hours, before settling at around 13.5. Is that to be expected? Bob

Thanks, the battery suppliers also suggested the 'equalisation' road (though that won't get to the root cause of the problem, of course)) which I will be travelling next week, and will report back. Bob Good points. Will get amp draw figures. Why such a large battery bank? Same answer about almost all of the more technical aspects of the boat; we took the recommendations of the boat builder.......... Bob

Makes sense to me, thanks. Don't know if all the same points apply to my Victron Monitor (600S), but am asking Victron for their response, and will let you know what they say. Bob

Thanks Brian. Nice of you to say that. Bob

A lot for me to take in, but I'm getting there! Some responses below to the various points made. The comments and suggestions about alternator use/regulation/testing, I understand, and will implement - rigorously! Ref. periods on the shoreline (where we have spent the vast bulk of our time), some points of clarification on our battery care. It's sadly true that I believed uncritically the readouts from the Victron Monitor; I had, it seems wrongly, thought the whole charging and recharging routine was controlled automatically (and efficiently.....?) by the Victron charging and monitoring equipment. I will certainly not rely on SOC again, but it has never actually led me to take the batteries off charge just because it suggested they were 100% 'fully' charged; I have done so only to test their health every few months. The adaptive charging problem you explain, though, would certainly have added to any potential difficulties. The only occasions we have ever left the batteries standing discharged have been overnight when (infrequently) cruising. As for 'using the boat like a house', yes, maybe on occasions, but only when on the shoreline. When using the batteries, we have been scrupulously (and increasingly!) careful with them, to a degree that others with a similar size bank have said is unnecessary. Yet (as a reminder), two new 810 amp battery banks seem to have been destroyed, one boiled and one not, in less than two years, with a total 180 hours engine use (first bank:150 hours; second bank: 30 hours), from new. The present bank has left the shoreline just once since their installation in late July 2011. Re the synchronisation issue, I had understood (wrongly?) from the manual that the meter was resynched every time the battery was fully charged (in our case, regularly, on the shoreline), so I thought it should have happened regularly and automatically. After the batteries were (I think!) fully charged at 13.4 volts yesterday evening and then waiting for 3-4 hours with no charge or load, I took the following hydrometer readings: Battery Cells 1. 1.255. 1.255. 1.230. 1.220. 1.220. 1.240 2. 1.225. 1.250. 1.250. 1.260. 1.260. 1.250 3. 1.230. 1.230. 1.230. 1.240. 1.250. 1.260 4. 1.225. 1.250. 1.240. 1.225. 1.240. 1.240 5. 1.230. 1.245. 1.250. 1.250. 1.250. 1.250 6. 1.250 1.250. 1.230. 1.250. 1.250. 1.250 From your comments, these readings would seem to show some bad cells? Thanks - hugely - for the time you have spent on this. I am slightly embarrassed, though grateful, for the amount of debate this has generated but, on a positive note, this does rather support my contention that, as the problem seems relatively hard to explain, it is unreasonable for the boat builders to deny it is their responsibility as a warranty issue. Priority now is to stop it happening again; I will post photos early next week (am having a 'battery-free' weekend in Brighton!), to show interconnecting leads. And I have now bought a hydrometer and a UNI-T ut203 multimeter.......... The battery supplier will be looking at the batteries next week; they suggest the charger might have been 'turned down' (by Victron) too much, to compensate for the earlier overcharging I agree I will probably need an 'expert report' (and recognise the danger of trying to fix the problem myself.) Any suggestions? Bob

Good points. No, I did not isolate the batteries in between trips. So much good practice, to be learnt only by trial and error. That is why I invested in ALL the best/additional gizmos recommended by the builder, as far as possible to avoid the difficulties we ended up with. AND went on a course, though not (sadly) Tony Brooks'. Oh for an Idiots Guide, to be provided with all new boats!!! I have a 22 page 'Owners' Manual', of which 3 lines are devoted to batteries. Bob

Thanks. Float voltage has gone down to 13.4, but it took a few hours to get there! Bob Yes, I would want to follow up the suggestions made by the more knowledgeable amongst you, but under (or by) someone well qualified, thus my query re somebody local to assist. Have already threatened legal action, thus the £300 offer from the builders. Will still pursue Victron (again) under their 2 year warranty. Thanks again. Bob