Moley
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Posts posted by Moley
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If Moley had had a Bubble Tester, he would have known he had a problem before he put the boat up for test.
Andy Downing, who has only recently taken over the Stourbridge dry dock, is a Corgi bod and seems to be well known around the local boating community as ‘Andy The Gas’.
Moley has only this morning asked ‘Andy The Gas’ about ripping out the old plumbing from regulator to my first just-inside-the-door gas tap (it's one of the existing joints between bottle and cabin which I believe to be suspect, and not one of mine) and re-gassing together with installing a bubble tester. He advised that as we have a reasonable sized new gas cooker onboard it wouldn't make much sense to restrict the flow right from its source, and that until they produce half-inch bubble testers they can be more trouble than they are worth.
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Edited to say:Sorry
That's quite ok, I think we're about done here
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Going back a little while, were the silver pits on the hull covered with rust or blacking when you slipped the boat? Were they only obvious after the loose blacking and rust had been pressure washed off?
Rust, and yes.
If the hull is electrically connected to the pilings etc I'd expect the anodes to waste away quite quickly.This is because the anode tries to protect the pilings too IYSWIM.
I'll try again - I think this one shows quite a bit of degradation:
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If I may back-track, I have tonight measured a voltage difference between the canal water and the metal of the pontoons. It may only average around 0.75 volts but there is a difference.
I do moor with a chain at the stern. This goes to an alloy mooring cleat, bolted through wood, but does cross an aluminium insert, so there is a definite possibility of metal-to-metal contact.
Could this be a factor?
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Thanks Moomin.
The float switch is fairly recent, the electrical connections are sound, insulated and well clear of the mucky water, and I do try to keep the mucky water well below the level ever required to trip the float switch, but I did actually understand most of that and will make sure a decent earth strap is fitted immediately.
Also, I just 'previewed post' and saw that Alan has found a photo
That old red float switch has since been replaced, the wiring is more tidy, the exhaust lagged and the morse cables not in contact, but even so, thanks Alan
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I've got my tin hat on already but . . . .
Is there any chance that the return from the bilge pump, being taken back to the earth stud rather than to the battery, is setting up a parallel return route from that stud, through the boat via the engine or any other part of the boat and back to the battery that way?
I assume such an option would be avoided if the bilge pump went direct back to the battery.
I'm buggered if I know but the bilge pump will be re-wired to go back to the battery, or I might even put the starter battery that I've just replaced back in as a bilge pump battery and isolate everything else completely.
This is probably academic as the bilge pump can't be in service for more than 5 minutes a month.
And I've got it! Coulombs is very similar to brie
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If I've calculated right, assuming 8 hours daylight per day, your 1.5W solar panel is producing enough current to rust about one gram of steel per day, all by itself.
(1.5W at 12V is .125A, .125A for 8 hours is 0.125x60x60x8 = 3600 coulombs per day. Apply Faraday's law, with atomic weight of iron = 56 and valency = 2 (should that be 3?) gives (3600/96485)*(56/2) ~= 1g)
I suppose I asked for that but if switches are open then where the chuffin' heck can 3600 coulombs go, other than into the battery, and why am I now thinking of cheese and biscuits?
Hi Moley, What pointers/things to check were they?Sorry Pete, just a few things I needed to check about my own lectrix before moving elsewhere.
Surveyor is of the opinion that engine systems should be totally isolated from domestic systems and doesn't think there should be any electrical contact with steelwork. That includes earth straps but I fail to see how you can avoid earthing an engine if you've got a steel exhaust system, morse and engine-stop cables.
I have checked and double-checked that there is no cross-over between my systems, all engine functions are fed from starter battery +ve, all domestic functions from domestic bank via +ve bus bar. However, horn and nav-light returns go to -ve bus bar and to domestic bank -ve, but all -ve terminals are bridged together.
Surveyor suggested double pole isolation (i.e. isolate the negatives as well), any benefit to this?
Now then, I could use some help interpreting this:
I've been down to our moorings this evening with my multi-meter. Although it's not that easy to find exposed metal on other boats (and their owners probably wouldn't appreciate me scraping paint), from a cratch stud on Tetty to the metal framing of our pontoons I measured a fairly steady 0.15volts difference.
From a brass "Diesel" plate on Bronwyn's stern to pontoons my meter was fluctuating wildly from 0.2 to 0.6, 0.3 to 0.9 volts. A side hatch screw gave similar results.
NB Just Heaven is now back and connected to shoreline and again I got a reading fluctuating around 0.6v from a front fender securing ring.
Then I tried dangling my black probe in the water and red probe to pontoon. I still got 0.6 to 0.9 volts, so it would seem that there's something in the water, Tetty has some protection but Bronwyn and Just Heaven might as well not be there ?
My brain hurts - help!
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I’d just like to add a note here, based upon Daftmare’s “Flat Batteries” thread:
When I came to try to start our boat for the trip to dry dock she was somewhat reluctant. This can be attributed to:
1) - I don’t think the starter battery had been replaced anytime recently when we bought the boat and I certainly haven’t changed it, and
2) - I don’t think any of my glow plugs were doing anything.
However, although that battery seemed to lack ‘oomph’ (or cranking amps), it had volts, around 12.4v.
Bilge pump with float switch is connected to starter battery, as is a small solar panel (approx. 10 x 7”) which only gives a tiny trickle charge of 1.5W (from memory).
Even if I’ve turned her over or run the engine over the Autumn and Winter it’s only been for a couple of minutes at a time and no charge has been put back into the domestic bank (3 x 110ah, approx. 2.5 years old) since October. Domestic bank still said 12.5v.
Someone else can do the sums but this seems to me to confirm that when my batteries are isolated, keys out, nothing untoward is happening.
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phew. so will you be able to stop it getting worse so you wont need to overplate it in future??
Surveyor has given me a few good pointers and a few things to check. Problems are most likely external but there are things onboard I can improve upon and which may have exacerbated.
Excellent news! Is there any explanation available for your natty silver propellor?It's stainless
No, seriously, there is a problem which still needs to be investigated / dealt with / moved away from.
Hooray. Thank goodness for a surveyor with some experience and a brain.Seems like a good bloke. Compliments also to Andy Downing, who has only recently taken over the dry dock at Stourbridge. He is turning that into a very nice facility and seems to have a lot of useful contacts.
I wonder if you could install a suitable electrical system, that will turn your boat into a giant cathode and will slowly re-plate itslef with steel leeched from neighbouring boats' hulls (oops sorry Trev the Rev, you didn't read that here!)Oi! Out of order! I know it's the British way to seek humour in adversity but I seriously doubt that it's just our boat being attacked.
Now you've got that sorted and off your mind, can you get back to the more important job of quiz master?.Yes Sir! On my way. My apologies for allowing myself to get distracted.
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Thanks again for all the comments and good wishes, which I promise I will read and re-read until I understand it all.
Talpidae is generally 'reverse parked'. The corrosion may be marginally worse to the left (Tetty's side) but it is only marginal. There is more pitting to the front half than the back half.
However, I would be grateful if some nice kind moderator could edit the title of this thread and delete the word "major".
I am awaiting a 'phone call anytime now from Mr. Godding (surveyor). When I went to the dock to meet him he was halfway into his inspection but was already fairly happy to say that he thought the problem probably looked worse than it was, that if we decide to keep the boat for any length of time we might think about starting to save towards plating work in the next few years, but that she doesn't need any doing just yet.
I don't know how much metal is left, he hadn't got his ultrasound out by that point and was still working with hammer, cordless angle grinder and tyre tread depth gauge, but Mr. Godding seems 'old school' and of the opinion that if you need to rely on ultrasound you shouldn't be doing the job.
Andy (dry-dock man) has been instructed to proceed as was originally planned and to get a couple of good coats of black stuff on.
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That's it, he's just called while I was typing.
Baseplate was originaly quarter inch (6.35mm). In places it's down to 5.1mm
Sides were originally 3/16" (4.7mm). They still are! The lowest he measured was 4.5mm towards the bow. Some of the worst pitting is approaching 2mm deep. However, these are relatively small and isolated patches and he can't see any great concern at present. Get her out again in a year or two and check again, but for the time being, quit worrying.
Written report will be in the post.
We're off to the pub
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Anodes brought up for Big Steve:
Well they would have been, why can't I see the pics by adding
tags?Can anybody else get those pics?
No, I don't have a radio aerial.
It's Tetty and Bronwyn which are permanently connected to their shorelines, Tetty's owners have sold their UK home and now spend most of their year in South Africa and a few months back here cruising the system.
I need to try to contact their key holder to see if we can find out what equipment is connected.
I'm rather hoping that Trev the Rev might read this and advise what is connected on Bronwyn.
To prevent boats swinging around from passing traffic, Mick from Tetty does lash our centre lines and bow lines together across the pontoon. Could it be possible to create an electrical circuit that way, through (frequently damp) polypropylene?
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Ok, thanks people, I've just got back from a long day re-stuffing stern gland and all manner of other sh!tty jobs and I'm knackered.
I've skimmed through today's postings but nead to re-read before I can comment, it looks like there's some good stuff there.
However, you asked for anodes, here are my anodes:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022201.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022205.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022203.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022204.jpg
In an attempt to clarify a couple of things, our boat isn't liveaboard, it's for weekends and holidays.
Alan's quite right, we moor in a small cut-out:
From the top:
1. Where Tetty should be
Pontoon
2. Talpidae
3. Bronwyn
Pontoon
4. That's Stourbridgeguy's boat but he's moved on, position vacant.
5. Now occupied by Just Heaven
Pontoon
6. Too small to be of any use and certainly couldn't get anyhing in there since Just Heaven's arrived.
I think Alan could be right and the engine's earthing through the exhaust, there is certainly a connection somewhere, I've checked it with a meter today, but I need to clarify this for myself.
My steelwork is not being used as a return wire. I know precisely what every wire does, where it comes from and where it goes to. All negative returns go directly to leisure bank -ve. The only thing that returns to the crankcase stud where the main engine -ve to starter battery attaches is the bilge pump and that's only used for a few minutes very occasionally.
Putting things into context though, let's say we use the boat for 5 weeks of the year:
For 5 weeks of the year our boat is away from home moorings, all 12v systems are active, no mains is used.
For 47 weeks of the year our boat is on home moorings, she's dead in the water, 12v systems are off, battery isolation keys are removed. There is no metal-to-metal contact, fenders are down between steel and wood. Shoreline is hardly ever connected, I would estimate that in the last 12 months, shoreline has been connected for less than 36 hours.
Other than by leaving it too long between blackings, I fail to see how I could be responsible for this.
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If it is any comfort ... we had pitting similar to that .... It hasn't recurred.
The hull wear sounds like you are going to have a set of shoes, like we did last blacking.
You mean like this: http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022105.jpg
Is there a connection from the negative bus bar to the hull? The prop is connected to battery negative via the engine and gearbox and shaft. Is it possible that the engine isn't connected to the hull (rubber/wooden engine mounts?) and therefore the hull is not connected to battery negative? If so a leakage from battery positive to the hull via damp/dirt/chafed insulation would be enough to pass a current through the water via the prop and hull.There is no connection from negative bus to hull.
There is no chafed insulation anywhere, new cables throughout, well clear of or protected from anything sharp.
Engine may have rubber mounts but there's a big steel bolt with steel washers through each one and a good electrical connection from engine to engine bearers.
I'd still be interested to know the date of the last blacking, and what the verdict on the hull was at the time ? Is it really the case that the majority of this pitting has been whilst it has been on it's current pontoon ? It seems hard to believe, somehow.I also agree that erosion of the edge of the chine will probably be due to a hard life as a hire boat, (I think the boat is believed to have been one of Calcutt's "Wild" fleet ?). It's hard to see that being related to electrolosis. If so it needs "shoeing" but not a major overplate, surely ?
I have to admit that it's been 3.5 years between blackings but I wasn't there last time.
Opinion at dry dock is that pitting is live and recent.
Yes, she was Wild Hemlock IV and 4 'corners' are already shod, but I like your idea of angle iron along the sides.
I'm surprised there's not more corrosion on the anodes. They don't seem have been doing any thing. Are they the correct type - material?I'll take some close-ups today.
Are you sure it's not a stainless steel prop? The anode I could see in the picture looked like it had been painted over.I'm sure it's not stainless and that bump isn't an anode.
Many thanks to everyone for the comments, I'm off to re-pack stern gland and do some more work myself now, apart from that all we can do is wait and see what the surveyor says tomorrow.
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Thanks for all the comments so far and the good wishes, both public and private.
All I have to go on at the moment is guesswork. We are assuming that the original steelwork was 1/4" baseplate (6.35mm) and 3/16" sides (4.7625mm). Would that seem a fair guess? Some of the worst pitting would appear to be around 2mm deep, so 4.7625 - whatever you would expect to lose over 25 years - 2mm = probably not enough.
Surveyor is coming on Monday so I will know more then.
Existing anodes seem quite reasonable but weren't pictured. The plan was to add new anodes below or in line with the old ones.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022003.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022004.jpg
Boat is currently in dry dock by the Bonded Warehouse, end of the Stourbridge Town Arm. Dry dock man, Andy, reckons it's the worst electrolysis he's seen. Andy has only recently taken over that dock and is having quite a bit of work done, new roof over and stop planks being replaced by a winch operated entrance. A liveaboard Sparks has been doing his lectrix today and was also rather impressed by our problem, they've had some electrolysis around those moorings but not on the scale of ours. Sparks reckons there's a major problem at our moorings and would not consider parking there until it was investigated and resolved.
I am absolutely certain that my steelwork is not being used as a return path, systems onboard are minimal, all wiring goes out from a positive bus bar (fixed to nylon) through fuse holders to lighting or other services and return to a negative bus bar (fixed to wood with screws which don't go all the way through) and then directly to battery negative. All battery negatives are bridged together. Obviously, there is a connection from battery -ve to engine.
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NB Talpidae went into dry dock yesterday morning for re-blacking and BSS. She has failed BSS on fuel lines not carrying the required numbers, there's a minor gas leak somewhere which we thought we had found and I had nipped up but on the manometer test when the level is supposed to remain constant for 5 minutes it dropped, installation condemned. Dry-dock man is able to rectify both. There were also a few minor niggles which I am able to rectify.
However, once the dock was drained and pressure washing commenced, my problems took a quantum leap.
I must confess that I have never really bothered with the threads on galvanic isolation and earth bonding because, although they frequently turn into quite amusing arguments (viewed from the outside), that rapidly detracts from any benefit those threads might be. Also, as I have a very minimal 240v installation, I didn't think it applied to me. Well it seems to be having a bloody good go at applying to me!
Let me describe my mains installation: Cable from shoreline bollard to plug on boat, from mains inlet to 2-way distribution point, 2 trip switches, 6-amp line to single socket outlet, 10-amp line to 2-gang socket outlet. System is entirely self-contained, nothing is earthed to the steelwork, I may as well bring in an extension lead from the bollard. Besides this, it is almost never connected to shoreline, there's no credit on my meter and no card which BW sell anywhere on the system works in our bollards, a couple of neighbouring boat owners have complained and had the meters taken out of their bollards and are on a constant supply. Very occasionally I might disconnect one of those and plug in for a short while to run a vacuum cleaner around and earlier this week I pinched a connection overnight to plug in a battery charger. That's it, we have no other mains appliances.
However, boats on either side of ours (one 3 feet away across a pontoon, the other a couple of fenders away) are permanently connected to their supplies. One of those is a forum member so please be tactful in any replies.
On pressure washing there is some long-term pitting and corrosion which would be expected with any boat 25+ years old. However, there is also quite a bit of shiny pitting due to electrolysis, some of it rather deep, and the propeller looks silver, not bronze.
If a picture's worth a thousand words, this lot should save me pages:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022001.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022002.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022005.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022101.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022102.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022103.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022104.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022105.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022106.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022107.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022108.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022109.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mol...ck/09022110.jpg
My options would appear to be:
Have dry-dock man blow some weld into the deeper pits, black over and try to get rid of ASAP (and caveat emptor).
New baseplate and half way up the sides.
If we re-plate there is still a question mark over whether or not or for how long we keep the boat but I am certain that, in the present climate, any prospective buyer is going to shy away from any older boat which could potentially require plating.
If we re-plate, who (within sensible proximity) could I ask to do it at a reasonable price, what might that price be, and what's to stop it happening again?
Alternately, I might be open to offers, as seen.
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Talpidae failed BSS today
There are a few minor niggles which I can fix myself, namely a couple of electrical cables (horn cable needs to be secured, bilge pump cable needs re-routing where it can't be trodden on), new cooker needs to be secured so it can't topple forward, one battery terminal was loose.
However, gas lockers have a couple of previous pipe holes which need patches welding over, fuel lines are probably quite safe but don't carry the numbers he required and I have a gas leak somewhere. After I had nipped up a couple of joints which seemed to be suspect his manometer still dropped in the 5 minutes when it's not supposed to, so something needs attention before he can issue a certificate.
However, this does not account for my flashing vision and approaching migraine, I will post more when I know more and when my vision has returned sufficiently for me to read up on galvanic isolation and investigate re-plating costs!!!
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I'm sure there's an apostophe askew somewhere... MOLEY!
... and an errant homophone but you're not drawing me into this.
On the subject of Bones' side hatch, our magazine hasn't arrived yet but I've seen the hatch close up and was quite impressed.
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Though not a fan of 'in-ear' 'phones, I bought a pair of 'mid-price' Sennheiser in ear 'phones for around thirty quid. Am now a convert and am amazed just how much outside noise they cut out!
My only concern on spending a big chunk of cash on 'audiophile' quality 'phones is that with the iPod compressing the audio signal, will the sound source do the 'phones justice? There's no point in having 'phones with a frequency response down to say 10Hz if your iPod's lowest frequency is 25Hz!
Thank you, I'm glad someone has raised that point.
I use an iPod at work. I tend to listen to music which my immediate sidekick would not tolerate, so I like a discreet in-ear 'phone. My volume level is set such that I can hear someone talking in the same room, or a telephone ringing, but it cuts out the majority of machine noise. I must have a relatively small outer ear as most in-ear -phones simply don't fit comfortably, and so I prefer a 'bud' type 'phone which fits inside the ear canal. Mine are currently starting to break up, so I must invest in some Sennheiser.
If you are listening to mp3, is there much point buying expensive 'phones? .mp3 files are compressed in the order of 8 times from .aif files and something has to be lost in that compression. However, I am unable to distinguish a difference. Like it or not, hearing deteriorates with age. I don't know how lower frequencies are affected but my kids have super-high pitched ringtones on their mobiles. To them it sounds like an extremely annoying mosquito but I simply cannot hear it. I understand that hardly anyone over the age of 25 can hear it, therefore it's totally pointless for me to buy 'phones which claim response to 40khz if I can only hear to 20khz.
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Compiling the next intro quiz?
No, that's what I'm doing now
(Well, next-but-3 actually)
Lying seductively on a chaise longue, being hand fed peeled seedless grapes whilst watching the Dakar rally.....? -
With particular reference to cruiser sterns with blocked drainage channels, particularly the one which runs above the engine, and particularly to those boats with older engines which are noted for dropping black oily gunk into the 'dirty bilge' below the engine, and particularly in Winter:
Unless you happen to be some particular variety of masochist whom most self-respecting masochists would consider Just Plain Weird, do not allow rain water to accumulate in the 'dirty bilge' to such an extent that someone stepping onto the stern, or other boats passing by at any sort of speed which would cause your boat to rock in the water, would cause black oily gloop to overspill into the main volume of the 'clean bilge'.
This will almost certainly result in your having to spend a most unpleasant afternoon having to pump 'dirty bilge' into a suitable container for off-site disposal and then having to sheet off (with newspaper or kitchen roll) black oily gloop from places where black oily gloop simply has no right to be before it is again possible to pump accumulated rainwater directly into the canal.
Furthermore, we are supposed to learn from our mistakes, so permitting the above to occur more than once in any 12 month period is Just Plain Inexcusable!
Anyone care to hazard a guess as to how I've spent my afternoon?
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Edited out as I simply can't be bothered to waste my time getting into an online argument with a total ignoranus.
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Loseing you mean?
I think he meant losing.
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If you're so upset about folk dying, how come I haven't read anything about Gazza on here?
I know he's not been well but didn't realise he'd snuffed it, or are you talking about Gaza?
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We had a wonderful evening with a really good meal and some excellent beer. The four of us retired to Carrie~Lou where we had some serious debate on which of The Kings Wenceslas was the one in the famous Christmas carol and whether the first animal in space on Sputnik 2 was a more significant event in history that the death of Lonnie Donniegan. We also debated at length the History of Buffalo Bill and the Enigma machine . In case anyone was in any doubt you might realise that there was more alcohol that accompanied the deep meaningful conversation
I think this game might need some explanation:
Jan requested that before we met up I should research my birthday and find 10 notable events, births, deaths etc. which happened on that date.
Before I continue, we have eaten at Misty's at Calf Heath before, it was quite expensive and very disappointing, I would not have gone back there but Rose told me I should give it another try. It has now changed hands, they've already done quite a lot of work on the place, the menu is actually cheaper but the quality is far superior. I would now certainly recommend it and would make a point of stopping there next time we're passing.
After an excellent meal (and a few pints of Timothy Taylor's 'Landlord') we adjourned to PortaPotti, AquaChem, Dave's boat where, after another beer or two and a multiple Scotch, Rose explained the game:
First, you declare which of your numbered items you are going to 'play', then each person declares their birthday fact, then you cast votes on which person had the most important or interesting fact.
There were a few interesting coincidences. For example, I happen to share my birthday with Buffalo Bill, but Allan's birthday coincides with Buffalo Bill launching his Wild West show. Later, Dave brought out a tray of cakes (yes Bones you should have been there) and a comment was made about them being moist like Fanny's. I also share my birthday with Fanny Craddock!
But, Alan declared that he shared his birthday with Good King Wenceslas, to which I replied "do you b0110cks! I do!"
Alan has now graciously conceded that HIS Wenceslas was King Wenceslaus III (1289) and not the Good one in the song (who would appear to have been a Duke and not a King, and later a Saint).
Unfortunately, it would appear that MY Wenceslaus (1361) was even later. From Wiki:
Wenceslaus, Wenceslas, Venceslas, or Wenzeslaus may refer to:
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Wenceslaus I, Duke of Bohemia (907–935 or 929)
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Wenceslaus II, Duke of Bohemia (died 1192)
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Wenceslaus I of Bohemia, King of Bohemia (1230–1253)
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Wenceslaus II of Bohemia, King of Bohemia and Poland (1271–1305)
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Wenceslaus III of Bohemia, King of Hungary, Bohemia, and Poland (1289–1306)
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Wenceslaus I of Luxembourg, its first Duke (1337–1383)
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Wenceslaus, King of the Romans, King of Bohemia, King of the Romans (1361–1419)
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Wenceslaus I, Duke of Bohemia (907–935 or 929)
Talpidae: problems,
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted · Edited by Moley
I think you might be confusing this thread with the one about what the examiner didn't like.
My BSS examiner never went anywhere near my hull with a hammer, the hull surveyor did, and decreed that I didn't need any plating this time around.
O.P. is already addressing the issues raised by the BSS, fully compliant fuel lines are already installed and properly secured, the gas leak is being dealt with today by a Corgi registered gas fitter. I am pretty sure I had already dealt with the minor leak near the new cooker which was only installed a couple of weeks ago (old one didn't have flame failure on hob) and the other area for concern I think I may have located is outdoors, above deck. She will be gas-tight before she leaves the dock and re-test is booked for next Tuesday.
O.P. has also made it crystal clear from the outset to anyone who has followed this thread that the boat is recreational.
Actually, I'll retract that last bit, now I'm confusing it with the “what the examiner didn't like” thread, I didn't mention that until half-way through this thread but it wasn't relevant as we were discussing corrosion here, not gas.