[All Electric?]

Update....
I got the replacement membrane panel yesterday and mounted it today. The old one was indeed the culprit.

As it turns out, I just learned, the the other membrane panel was replaced a couple of months ago by the seller of the boat (done by a prof boat electrician).

Hmmm, so both panels failed within a relatively short period of time.

 

Just as a service info to EmpirBUS-owners - the new panel came with a foam "gasket" and clear instructions, that there MUST be drilled two holes to allow for ventilation and prevention of condensation. See attached. As theese holes are not there in the original installation, it may og may not give a hint as to the course of failure. I don't know. I'll drill the holes and get on with it 🙂

 

Kind regards and thanks for input!

[All Electric?]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Obviously you have lost some confidence in the system having just bought it and now it has a fault. Admittedly we are on the safety of inland waters, but the system hasn't failed us yet and I don't expect it to. Using MOSFETs to switch nav lights is more reliable than using relays! If you had mechanical switches, fuses and relays to operate the lights from the outset, would you feel the need to add a backup set of switches fuses and relays? Probably not, I suggest! Sorry but IMO your concern is based on fear of the unknown rather than a scientific reliability analysis. The most likely failure modes will be wiring faults, and that could happen regardless of the type of switching.

Bear in mind that the system was designed from the outset for sea-going craft, not narrowboats.

You may think CANBUS and computers are all a bit fancy and complicated, but things like the ABS and Stability Control systems in your car use the same technology.

 

 

He he - thanks for the perspective. Confidence in reliability slowly growing! I do get canbus and computers etc. No problem. But I can't fix it with my toolbox and standard parts, if it fails. And certainly my boating partner can't. So I need it to function in it's core - I will take care of corrosion, proper connections and general maintenance 🙂

[All Electric?]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

On your last point, the membrane panels are permanently powered if the Nodes are powered. Typically there is a "master switch" input to one of the nodes, and most or all of the services subscribe to it, so that when you turn off the master switch you aren't removing power from the system, you are just forcing everything off except those things you want to remain on such as the bilge pump float switch power. When you press a membrane button to turn something on, the signal is still sent, but nothing happens if/because the virtual "master switch" is off. We use a membrane button for the master switch but I guess in your case it has been configured to use an input from the key switch. There is a buzzer function on the membrane keypad but I've never used it. I do find that when the backlight is on, there is a faint  buzzing/humming sound for some reason.

I suppose another question is, if you disconnect that bad membrane panel, does everything else work exactly as expected?

Tnx for the clear explanation. Good thing, I can rule the main unit out for now. I'm awaiting answer from Sweden - ready for the price tag.

But price is one thing.... I think I need to consider some sort of backup / override function. Maybe a small board with premounted fuses and relays which could be used to secure navigational lights etc in case of failure....  

[All Electric?]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes it certainly does look wonky (that is the technical term!). I have never seen anything like that behaviour. If it were me I’d check the CANBUS wiring - on the back of the panel are 4 wires, 2 for power and 2 for CANBUS (high and low) the CANBUS is a daisy chain of the 2 wires (ie goes to all the nodes and panels) but at each end there needs to be a terminating resistor, so again I’d check the terminating resistors are present and correct.

 

I am not going to argue with Empirbus support because they are the experts, but personally I’d want to check what data was actually on the bus to see if the panel was the cause of the problem, or simply reacting to rogue data on the bus. In any case, if you are going to cough up for a new panel, it will have to be configured and for that you need the programming USB adaptor and the (free) software. As well as programming devices, that allows you to monitor bus activity with the CANBUS messages translated into human-readable form. And if you do get a new panel, do you have the original configuration file? Do you know where the programming port is? I think you can extract the config from the existing panel but only if it is working!

 

Final thoughts, although it is encapsulated in resin at the back, at the front you can slide the button legend in and out. I don’t know if your panel is ever exposed to water but, whilst it is supposed to be reasonably waterproof, could it have become damp under the  outer membrane? Just wondering if taking it home, removing the legend strip and letting it dry out for a few days might help? Oh and do the buttons all have the same tactile feel? Just wondering if a button could stuck down or something.

 

Wonky.... good word! Just been to the boat prior to reading your message. I disconnected and reconnected the four wires on both panels. No corrosion, and they were properly mounted. The boat is in general in pristine shape being kept inside during the winter and with a full boat cover on it during the summer in a fresh water lake (all this will change now in Scandinavia :-)). So I don't expect to find moisture related problems etc. I will check termination on the bus, and I will log on to the system and see what I can find. Maybe there is some kind of error log. I have the passwords from the boat yard to the configuration file.

 

The panel acted in a new way when testing today:

At some point AFTER turning the on/off key at the chart table to OFF (which is connected to port 1 on the control unit), a green light in one of the buttons on the panel kept glowing. Shortly after, the background illumination came on (still with the main on/off key in OFF position). The was a distinct humming sound from the panel which went away, when I managed to turn it of again. Strange.... I would expect the panel to get its power from the main unit. So maybe the main unit is part of the problem...

Thanks for your inputs so far - much appreciated!
 

[All Electric?]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not directly on topic but it illustrates nicely how when all this electronic bus stuff goes wrong

Hi Tony,
Although I can certainly se the pros of a digitally switched system I wonder if I should consider "going old school". But that is also a rather big project on a boat, where the EmpirBUS is already installed. But good to hear, that Nick hasn't encountered more hardware errors.....

[All Electric?]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

 

 

You say your panel is failing, in what way is it failing?

Hi Nick,

Thank you for taking time to answer.

Good to hear, you haven't encountered further problems. 

Here is a link to a video showing the panel "acting with a mind of it's own".....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wvd375rkcb3tyzv/20220820_200334.mp4?dl=0

 

EmpirBus support in Sweden says, it's classic sign of a panel in need of replacement.

 

On a non professional level I know my way around electric installations etc. But I don't know enough about electronics to try and fix an error like this. If I knew, I only needed to replace a capacitor or the like -- no problem. But which one ha ha 🙂

 

[All Electric?]

On 10/11/2021 at 17:04, nicknorman said:

...This was certainly the case with our Empirbus system - Steve didn’t particularly want to install it as he didn’t understand it, but was happy to do so to my design and my responsibility.

Having Googled my day away in search of advice on Empirbus CLC I find myself as new member of the forum on Canalworld.net. I hope, you will bear with me, even though my boat has a mast and normally navigates Danish waters - and not canals...

As far as I can tell, you have had the Empirbus CLC on your narrowboat for 10 + years? I just bought at boat (build 2009) with Empirebus CLC installed. One of the two membrane panels is failing. At a quoted price of EUR 1.000 (!) and no means of bypassing generally upon systems failure, as far as I can tell, I'm considering removing all of it and rewire the boat, if age is about to become a problem for the system. EUR 1000 would take me a fair bit 🙂. 

But I was wondering, what your experience with 10+ years of ownership is - and am I being to dramatic?
Kind regards Peter