Trawler
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Posts posted by Trawler
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7 hours ago, David Mack said:
One of the most regularly reported types of incident is of a narrowboat sinking in a lock, due either to a cilling when descending, or when ascending, getting the boat caught under a gate beam/projecting masonry or a rudder blade or trailing rope getting caught between bottom gates. The BSS requires two points of escape from every cabin. So to my mind having a situation where all but one of the exits from a cabin would be rendered unusable in one of the most likely accident scenarios (narrow boat sinking in a narrow lock) should be a BSS failure.
That makes sense and very good points.
It seems the only solution in that scenario is the doors fore and aft, and hatches. Hatches create a problem of actually exiting them. On my trawler, the required hatch off the stateroom in the bow has an escape hatch that functions as a skylight. It has a ladder that can be attached. The likelihood of being able to use this in an emergency appears to me to be low especially with power failure at night. There is a forward collision chamber but I think the real emergency would be a fire and smoke coming from the engine below the saloon floor blocking the normal egress. I don’t think we can engineer for all alternatives. For designers of life rafts, for example, it’s almost impossible to climb up a rope ladder into them as the ladder molds to the shape of the hull. We are getting older, not as nimble, and in my case the water is very cold. Same with getting someone back on board that goes overboard. It’s very very difficult. In cold waters you have to assume in the optimistic 1 or 2 minutes to return and locate and come aside the MOB that person is less responsive due to the cold. I have a swim deck, staples, boarding ladder, but lifting someone 180lbs plus up? Life slings. Winches. All have been proposed but the only real solution is to prevent the overboard event itself.
it seems prudent not to have people in areas of the NB that couldn’t exit via the top while in a narrow lock. That either leaves just the helmsperson or perhaps someone in the bow outside?
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21 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:
Ah. You should ...
Let Wiki help you a bit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters#Territorial_sea
Territorial sea, as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea,[2] is a belt of coastal waters extending at most 12 nautical miles (22 km; 14 mi) from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state. The territorial sea is regarded as the sovereign territory of the state, although foreign ships (military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it, or transit passage for straits; this sovereignty also extends to the airspace over and seabed below. Adjustment of these boundaries is called, in international law, maritime delimitation.
I have no argument that a bowthruster may be helpful for very close quarter handling, I'm just interested how often you use one in open water to assist your steering. Hopefully you don't often get so close to other vessels that you need to use it frequently in international waters!
Yes, I know that. I was being playful in my answer. However when you are in the country going further offshore doesn’t really matter so 12 miles is irrelevant. I do clear customs as I transit between Canada and the US as I like to stay coastal. I will go further than 12 miles off sometimes for longer trips.
Since it was apparently a sincere question, no, bow thrusters are only used for slow speed maneuvering around constricted areas in the marinas and docking
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33 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:
They would, although probably not the training wheels I was referring to. Does your bowthruster make much difference to you beyond the 12 mile limit?
Not sure why I’m being trolled! 😂
but playing along, I don’t recognize 12 miles. 3 miles is important in Canada as that’s where I can discharge my black water tanks. 100 miles is still coastal. 😂
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45 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
As do I.
Are you suggesting that a bow thruster on a narowboat is a 'safety device' rather than just a 'way around' poor handling skills ?
I thought I was responding to criticism regarding my rudder lock idea not bow thrusters.
my view on bow thrusters? I’m in favor generally but never piloted a narrowboat so can’t opine. I think I’d like one on a longer boat for sure.
. I have one on my trawler. I don’t need it often as I have twin counter rotating props and can position it where I want by gears alone, combined with having substantial weight and relatively low wind age so I don’t get pushed around much. Last month for three weeks I had to return And back in to a slip with a very expensive yacht next to me 3’ away and winds variable and gusting to 35 knots so I did use it one day for a burst or two. I didn’t need it because really you are only in gear at most a second because you don’t want forward or reverse momentum. I can spin my boat in place with gears only no thrusters. Generally though as you know boats pivot around a point (different if going forward or reverse) and by putting my starboard diesel in gear forward bow swings port and stern starboard and the opposite when I put it in reverse. And the opposite of that with my port engine. So with twins you can do everything by prop walk and prop wash.
with a single, as in a NB, it’s much harder I think and prop wash will only work on one side depending whether you have a left or right prop, and really only in reverse.
I’d be much happier with a bow thruster I’m sure in that case. I often think about a stern thruster but that’s even less necessary. There would be situations where I’m sure it would reduce anxiety.
so my view is put one on, when you need it it will make you much happier. There is no shame in using any tool available to you.
be careful with continuous use though as the electric ones can overheat quickly.
I’ve seen this debate so often in trawler land. If it reduces workload or anxiety and you can afford it go ahead. It also makes docking easier especially when you single hand but I think properly knowing how to use spring lines is the way to get out of tight spots. That’s what I do.
I look forward to joining everyone on the canals and discussing further over a pint! I hope you accept me!
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2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:
Stabilisers make a bike easier to ride too. Just sayin' ....
They make the ride a lot more comfortable on my trawler too.
what’s the issue?-
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:
And when you grow-up you can take them up
I carry Epirbs, sat phones, life raft etc on my other boat.
So what’s your point?
any safety feature for the rare occurrence shouldn’t be discussed because it’s not manly?
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I wonder to avoid the sweep of the tiller and someone getting knocked off of there couldn’t be a more limited range of motion and you release the stop device to allow a full range when you really need it, say in docking or shorter locks.
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14 minutes ago, MtB said:
Fat chance of getting all that from a UK marina!!
Good to know.
moorage space is the only essential. -
56 minutes ago, MtB said:
Hardly. There is a difference between casual, keeping an eye on the boat and marinas agreeing to accept legal responsibility for its wellbeing.
The former is normal and the latter, hard to find. I get the feeling the OP wants the latter.
I’m not asking someone to accept legal responsibility. In my case they do bilge checks, batteries, and look for anything wrong.
And to check my boat shed is still floating…
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Thanks David. I’m not as worried about the incremental cost, but the pure terror of needing to leave for a month or so and not knowing what to do with a 70’ tube!
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19 minutes ago, MtB said:
Loads of marinas about who will give you a short term mooring, but don't expect them to do much to keep an eye on your boat beyond calling you if it sinks.
They will all tell you otherwise but check the T&Cs before believing them.
I think you have unrealistically high expectations of canal life over here. Rewind to the 1950s for an idea of the standard of customer service...
But the availability of moorage for a 60’ to 70’ boat should be readily available? That’s the critical part I suppose.
(Insurance requires I have weekly checks on my current boat. Different situation though. )
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As I want to explore the various interesting canals of the system over several years, taking a month or two on and then perhaps a few months or the winter off, how hard is it to find safe and secure moorage in a marina, perhaps with periodic boat checks to make sure everything is fine? I’m not sure I’ll be able to plan that far ahead though. To avoid backtracking, unless it’s part of a loop, I’m not sure an annual home marina works. Does anyone lift and store them on the hard?
is this much worse with longer length boats, say 60’ to 70’?
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6 hours ago, Sea Dog said:
Hallelujah! I thought it was just me...! Letting someone 60' away from you, who has no control, jump from a part of the boat you can't see, onto something you can't see, across a gap you can't see doesn't seem an entirely well thought out course of action to me.
Agreed
incidentally on my larger ocean vessel, where docking is much more important and dangerous as one can’t wrestle 80 tons into place, attaching a line in the wrong way can cause the boat to pivot, and anchoring involves 400’ of 12mm chain, communication is important, sight lines are obstructed (even with multiple helm stations) and yelling won’t work. Hence many of us use these aids
They are called marriage savers here.
not a traditional look though!
3 minutes ago, IanD said:Which is why I chose a semi-trad stern, with seating for 4 people, the one for the steerer being raised (also a folding bike locker) so you can take the weight off your feet without sitting too low down...
That solves that problem.
can the companion see over the sides while underway (the bench being tall enough)? It appears so. -
The biggest issue I struggle with of the traditional stern is when as a couple you want to stand together and have a cup of tea/coffee and talk as one cruises. This doesn’t apply for a solo cruiser. The sociable bow area is more for when one is moored of course. Also, for longer cruising days the helms person is standing for hours at a time, though one can sit in the hatch opening if limber enough, though this isn’t unique to the traditional stern.
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25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Have you actually spent any time in a narrowboat ?
They are not a size that any sane person would build , but to keep costs down many of the locks on the canal system are only 7 foot (ish) wide so most NBs are now built at 6' 10" beam, take away the gunwale and the thickness of the steel, insulation and lining materials and you are lucky to have an internal width of 5'10". They are not lovingly called 'sewer tubes' for nothing !.
Mark out (say) a 40 foot x 6 foot x 6 foot high cube in your house and see if you could live in that. (Bathroom, bedroom(s), living room , kitchen , office etc etc)
Don't forget that even a 60 foot boat will have roughly a 10 foot bow section, and as much as a 10' stern / engine room etc so the living space is much reduced.
Many people do live happily on them, but many find it claustrophobic and go for a widebeam instead.
I agree it’s insane. As my parents have told me on each of my adventures. I tend to plunge in. And no, I haven’t. However, life is about new experiences and challenging one’s comfort zones
The smallest boat I have “lived on” was a 32’ sailboat with my father doing blue water sailing, albeit in my 20’s. Thousands and thousands of hours going backwards in a 28’ long 11” wide oar propelled craft but that doesn’t count! But it sure wasn’t beamy!
my usage is not to be a continuous cruiser or live aboard but rather to be on board for weeks at a time, living in the moment and absorbing the life of the countryside. I do need to determine how I can leave the boat for long time periods at different destinations though. I also would like to share it with family and friends, even in my absence.
I believe I have taken up too much of everyone’s time as I try to learn more, so I appreciate it. The rational approach is to charter but I find that less satisfying. Ideally I’d buy a very nice used NB to help me sort out my preferences. I find though if I get involved in a build process I use it much more as I have pride of ownership and personal investment. The financial downside is limited as well.
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7 hours ago, nicknorman said:
Perhaps bear in mind that low frequency sound travels better through water. So whilst you may barely hear your genset from the towpath, it will be much more audible as a low rumble from inside a nearby boat.No, it can’t be heard. However, I’m drawing 5’ of depth so it’s close to below waterline, the engine room and lazerette are sound insulated, it’s on isolation mounts, wet exhaust and in a sound box. Narrowboats probably can’t go to that extreme. We are seeing, and I’m contemplating, lithium iron house banks as they can charge much faster and hence require fewer engine hours to charge plus larger solar installations though our solar mounting space is relatively small, basically a hardtop on a fly bridge.
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Thanks everyone.
I’m not a contemporary modern design person and I hate “bling.”. I prefer classic looks though I am keenly aware of modern technology. For example, I restored a 1950’s DeHavilland dhc-2 “Beaver” seaplane and while it looks classic there were nods to modern structural and safety improvements not to mention situational awareness avionics like TCAS. I owe that to my family. The rumble of the 9 cylinder radial supercharged 450hp R985 is music to my ears…though I wear noise cancelling headsets as fatigue is real after hours of flying north.I also find the process fun as long as I know I’m in great hands and can trust the process leads to a great outcome.
I also like the sound of Diesel engines so electric itself isn’t a driver when underway. However when in a very silent cove, as I often am, quiet is an important part of the experience. Electric motors seem to make sense on narrowboats given the ability to use solar as the speed is low and the distances travelled are relatively short per day.
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Can the generators be better insulated, with isolation mounts and sound boxes? And use wet exhausts?
On my larger boat I have two gensets, 8kw and 21kw, and they are whisper quiet. Sometimes I can start to leave,the boat and not even hear them running. Granted I have more space to put them but a diesel motor is still a diesel motor.
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Given our increasing days of very hot weather, has anyone put air conditioning in a narrowboat? I don’t mean a RV unit purchased on the roof, but something like a reverse cycle unit (heat pump) (which is common in larger boats and hidden from view and outputted through heating ducts which are also non existent on narrowboats as all I’ve seen have radiators). It does require the use of the genset running though. I’d like to commission a new narrowboat and was thinking of the practicality of this. My guess is it isn’t practical but would sure be nice some days.
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19 minutes ago, David Mack said:
The elite builders have more work than they can handle, and don't need to spend time responding to casual enquiries, most of which will not come to anything. You have to visit them to talk through what you want and show them you are serious.
That’s great advice and I believe it to be true. First I need to find out who to visit!, hence this post. after my first two emails failed, I started dropping more hints to convince them I was worth responding to. I don’t find that very tasteful though.
At the moment I can’t travel due to family health issues now and upcoming travels. Once we are in a dialog, I believe they will learn enough about me to take my interest and means seriously. I am a great client though as I admire and appreciate quality craftsmanship, and will pay for that.
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I will say I am drawn to some of the Norton Canes models I have seen. I reached out to them to learn more; the lines and the quality of a few that they had built really spoke to me (there was a used one I would have just bought now but I was a week late). I also liked a Braidbar I watched on YouTube. I really don’t know much more about these yet, but the Norton Cane felt a bit more classic to me.
I hoped there was a very short list of builders that were recognized as providing a premium build. I think builders get overwhelmed as all are slow to respond, maybe since they can’t filter to recognize serious buyers? Ideally, I would find a wonderful used one first to hone my preferences and wait until the new build is done. Or find someone who wants a flexible partner.
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3 minutes ago, PaulJ said:
Braidbar turn out some nice boats (in my opinion) -I followed a Hybrid of theirs up the Watford flight not long ago. The boat also had a full remote system and the owner was up top controlling the boat using a small handset.
Was that the one from the Crick 2022 show? Women owner? If so, it did look quite nice. She had a Beta Diesel engine in parallel with the electric motor.
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I’m not new to boating, and will be transitioning over the next 10 years from a trawler used in BC and Alaska. English canals seem a logical next step for me, for several reasons.
I’m intrigued by going electric, either parallel or serial.
it’s not just the steps outlined above about a great shell, but I want single point accountability and integration.
Aqua was mentioned above. I’ve also heard Braidbar, Norton Cane and ortomarine, etc
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Who are considered the top boat builders? I imagine there are three components: the one who builds the hull or shell, the cabinet maker (or is that all in house?) and the overall boat builder?
I understand there are long back logs for construction, which while not preferable is acceptable. I also understand I’ll pay a premium but the ease of process and end product are worth it to me.
I really can’t determine who creates the highest quality boats, and by that I mean overall engineering, fit and finish, especially cabinetry, etc. is there a short list of 2, 3 or 5? I understand domes,Amy have specific thoughts of an individual builder but is there a consensus? I’ve watched many videos and seen some I really like but I’m not that clued into the market hence my ask.
thank you.
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Who are the elite boat builders?
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted · Edited by Trawler
That of course is the right answer.
Incidentally, in cold water there is only a 50/50 chance of making it 50’ to shore. Hypothermia is real. Again, not a canal problem.
Ian, I had read his post as the BSS missing the most likEly scenario of narrow locks where you couldn’t get through the side hatches in their regulations not that they didn’t meet them requirements?
anyway, I have diverted enough attention while I am waiting for my son to wake up.