[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

Thanks Steve this is good to kno!

and Tony good to rule things out so I will have a look tmrw along with testing the header tank and the exhaust manifold. 
question which may seem simple but just want to clarify- buy filling up to the brim do u mean right up to the the opening of the header tank or the line inside the tank?

and by venting do you mean, conduct the test with the cap off ?

 

Again apologies if seems obvious 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

On 02/01/2023 at 13:58, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

Now the coolant leak. How full are you filling the header tank? On a skin tank cooled boat you need a considerable air gap above the coolant. If you fill to the brim it will overflow as the engine warms up and a new filler cap can not stop that. The leaking coolant will collect in the drip tray with any oil or fuel floating on top, so your supposed oil leak might just be the coolant leak. Fill the header tank to the brim just once, run up to normal temperature, allow to cool right down, note the level in the header tank - that is the correct topping up lever.

 

If there is air or gas in the skin tank it will    cause even more coolant to be ejected from the header tank, so try venting your  skin tank, just in case.

 

 

[Toilet questions]

On 29/12/2022 at 17:11, squid said:

Hi

Not sure if this has been answered on another thread as it seems like a basic question. But what are people's experiences with composting toilets on boats, especially if you're continuous cruising? I've lived with composting toilets before, but on land with places to store the barrels while they compost and not sure how it will work on a boat - do you end up storing barrels of waste on the roof while it's composting? I'm looking to move onto a boat early next year and will be continuous cruising, so I won't have a regular place to empty the compost. It will be just me most of the time, sometimes with one other person. The last boat I lived on had a casette toilet so I know a bit about what that is like. The boat I'm looking at buying currently has a pump out toilet that needs fixing.

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Hi, got carried away reading the replies, if ever I’m having a bad day I’m going to read this thread.

 

so where will you be continuous cruising ? For instance if in Ldn, there is a small company who provide a compostable toilet collection service specially for boaters. They collect via bike and trailer from Tottenham lock on the Lea to Kensal rise on grand union. 
 

you have to pay for it almost like a subscription. Cant remember the prices but they provide tubs and collection service based on how many collections/ how much waste you want collected.

 

it’s a very good idea, I slightly resent paying to have my shit carted off so I’m a cassette kinda gal. On other boats I often see butts on the front of boats which I assume are for composting. 
 

anyway here is the company https://www.circularrevolution.org/

quite interesting either way

 

 

 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

20 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I was a salesman by trade and a not very good at but try nearly everything including boatbuilding, (10 sailing dinghies) plastering, electrical, plumbing, cabinet making, roofing, rebuilt a 200 year old house sewing, (sewed own sails)welding, ( city and guilds sat mornings for fun)metal turning/ milling (using local college machines on Monday nights)etc etc. I find it all fascinating and am reasonably competent though others would refute this. You wouldn’t want to pay me by the hour though!!!?? At school and college I always had part time jobs so I suppose have gained experience. 

 

An m8 bolt on your boat is no different to a 8mm coach bolt in woodwork. I’m just counselling you not to be daft if the nuts or studs are stuck

i’d be surprised if the pipe isn’t a flexible the hex end looks identical to mine and the way these engines shake it would crack pretty quickly if it was solid. To be safe unwrap a little bit as a Tony says.

well you certainly have persuasion skills !

I also find it interesting hence asking so many questions and wanting to figure it out.  

I’m going to have a bash at it, worse case scenario the engineer who is already coming out can fix but sounds like not much can go wrong ? Whilst I’m at it I’ll re wrap the exhaust in new wrap 

 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

19 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Go for it. those are the 4 M8 nuts!. I think/hope you will find that the exhaust as I previously said under the white glass fibre is braided hose. You don't need to take the insulation off just undo the nuts and waggle the  white covered pipe out of the way. You will I'm sure find its flexible braided stainless steel don't worry it is virtually impossible to break There should be a fibre gasket held between the flanges (square flat surfaces) held in place by the studs (bolts). Gasket should look probably similar to  brown card . It should be solid , undamaged with no holes apart from the 4 stud holes. If it looks at all knackered or has any holes in it get a new one.

The nuts look pretty new so should come off easily. If you use a spanner you should be OK and not strip anything. If you have to use an adjustable spanner take care as they are longer and hence put more force on the nut. I am only saying be careful with the nuts out of caution as I don't think you are familiar with spanner work. Even if you did strip one it is not total disaster. They can be fixed

When you undo the nuts the nut may stay on the  stud (bolty bit) . Thats fine just wind the whole thing out. It'll only take you 5 mins probably!

I am waiting with bated breath. Well done.

I've got fingers crossed for you!

Well this is the annoying thing by trade I’m a woodworker (furniture) and very used to being able to fix everything I just need to confidence to use some transferable skills ! Silly really 
 

it’s not the stern I have a plastic bucket underneath and it’s currentely bone dry ! Spose that’s one good thing 

 

can trade skills- anyone need any wood work advice or upholstery advice I am here ! 
 

ps thanks for the encouragement, might even pop to work to collect the right sized spanners tmz 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

What type of stern? If it is a cruiser or semi-trad, at this time of year your drips could be condensation, especially with a falling temperature.

Have mentally logged when it happens and it happens regardless of rain/ dry. Only correlation is when I had the engine running 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

There really should be a flexible between that flange and the point where the exhaust becomes fixed. If there is not then the exhaust is likely to crack, often the end of the silencer. Exhaust flexible are really not very flexible and when wrapped could be taken for a rigid pipe,  especially when they are older. The only way you will find out is to unwrap the bandage. Wet it because it just might be asbestos, but it is far more likely to be glass fibre so safe.

Ok I will have a look in daylight tmrw 

thanks Tony 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

Don't worry about not replying to all the questions.

 

I find it hard to believe that a leaking fuel banjo washer could cause a drip you can hear in bed. Maybe a single very infrequent drip.

Once the engine is cold there should be no pressure in the coolant to cause a leak that was no prominent when it is hot and thus pressurized. I am afraid it will be time-consuming to identify the drip.

 

This may sound completely bonkers but do you know what ducks eating the weed around the waterline sounds like?

 

Apart from the fact the cylinder orientation and number is different so the sound/vibrations of a misfire may be different between the two engines they should be near enough to identify a misfire. A three pot will naturally jump about a bit more than a four but when running properly, but it will jump about even more and sound more uneven when being revved, so you should recognize a likely misfire. You confirm the cylinder in the same way except instead of pulling plug leads off you loosen and tighten each main injector pipe union in turn.

 

Be aware that diesel do have a distinctive knock, even when running well, so don't let that fool you into thinking it is a misfire.

It is a single drip, infrequent but 1000000% coming from engine bay and something is dripping into bilge and no ducks in sight 😂😅 on few occasions I’ve been in my pjs in the engine bay trying to listen/ see where it’s coming from 

 

hmm ok regrading misfire I’m unsure but will run by my engineer 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

On 02/01/2023 at 19:44, Peugeot 106 said:

You will lose coolant if the exhaust manifold gasket is leaking. The water pump turns a lot slower on tickover so you may not lose so much or any coolant when running slowly. Is there any reason why you can’t undo the 4 nuts and pull the flanges apart? The exhaust should be flexible at this point and it should all be accessible you just need a M8 spanner (13mm). If they won’t come undone (be careful not to strip them or break the studs) soak overnight in penetrating oil or apply heat to the nuts. 

 

 

 

 

 

The exhaust isn’t flexible at this point, would it still b ok to take apart, am slightly concerned I don’t REALLY know what I am doing so a bit anxious about just un doing it so urring on side of caution to wait for engineer 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

Hiya sorry catching up-

 

- The drip tray has also had a very small amount of oily coolant. Since owning the boat (bought in Jan) the level of this stayed the same, cleared it out in Aug, the engineer who done the service notified me that it was mainly coolant and it was probably from me over filling the tank, which- I thought I wasn’t doing because I was filling up to the line. He didn’t explain what Tony you have kindly explained which I know and understand now.

 

- since Aug there has been a small amount of liquid in the bilge ( i was unsure of what it was but assumed was coolant) so stupidly didn’t think anything of it as it seemed to building up v v v v gradually and slowly 

 

-it wasn’t until about a month ago I was in bed and I could just hear dripping either after a cruise or after charging bats in neutral. On closer inspection I saw quite a lot more build up of liquid in the bilge. I cleaned out and like you said Tony tried to figure out where the drops were coming from with paper towel. one of which I could definitely find was underneath the header tank, it looks like it was coming from the cap, hence the new header cap.

 

- with the new header cap I could still hear a drip at night (driving me mental).

 So got my normal engineer out and he found a leak on the fuel injector banjo bolt, so the bilge was a combination of coolant and diesel he told me. I also notified him of the exhaust spitting (it wasn’t even as half bad as it is now at this point) and he said keep an eye but could potentially be a few things but might be bore glazing which is common with CCers, said if it gets worse call me asap. (I would have got him out today but he wasn’t about, he is quite busy so would have to wait, guess that’s a good sign) 

 

all of the above as previously said (except the exhaust) I’m aware may not be linked or if they are it’s general maintenance rather than my specific problem with the emulsified oil coming out of exhaust.

 
you are completely right I have no idea what a misfire sounds like. I’ve had a be classic 1966 vw beetle and I certainly kno what that sounds like to misfire but we are talking about a diesel engine so assuming it’s potentially not the same ? 
 

I am going to test the correct top up level

 

Sorry lots of info but aware you need as much detail as poss, sorry if I’m missing stuff in my replies,

 

Thanks again, T 

FYI I have no problems starting her up from cold, (nearly) always starts 1st turn of key on cold days 2 turns of key 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

20 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Tgno I now vert feel guilty as I suggested RCR and I am not in the least impressed with what he said. Assuming you told him about the manifold gasket could he not even be bothered to look? What exactly did he do for your £40?

 

Of all the engineers on this forum Tony is one of the best and most reliable and I would definitely listen to him. I am only an amateur with experience of an  Alpha engine though I have a lot of experience with mine as I am pretty anal about fixing it and looking after it. I only came up with the manifold gasket because I had read it somewhere and it makes sense.  Presumably S knows what he's talking about he sounds very plausible

 

I only mentioned the head gasket as worth looking at if you had explored other much simpler possibilities.

 

Tony if the head gasket had gone would it be possible for big bubbles in the header tank to make it overflow and also if it was only firing on two cylinders for water to be forced into the cylinder and then some of it out of the exhaust??

 

But. Replacing the head without looking at it seems extreme to say the least (Probably £250 for another bad second hand one if its knackered). Unless he wants to do it all in the same morning and takes your old head in part exchange. To get it skimmed would only be around £100 - you can look up prices on the web and refurbing the valves is not expensive. 

To give you an idea I could change the head in about half a day and a decoke gasket set (original equipment) is £70. If you want to use new bolts add another £30. Ask Sleeman Hawken and give your serial no. (you can get it a lot cheaper if you don't use lister parts. The engine can normally remain in place its just the top parts and the water pump at the front to take off. I imagine S would be a LOT faster. 

 

But I would get another engineers opinion and definitely check the manifold gasket. It might be fine or not have the slot in it but why worry just do it. Again get a new gasket off Sleeman it won't take any harm to change it. It'll cost around £5 and you'll get it return post. Have you got a 13mm or adjustable spanner? (warning if you find you have to force it don't)

 

Anyway thank you for keeping us up to date. Where are you somebody may know a decent engineer near you

 

Assuming I know what went on I must say I am very disappointed in the RCR engineer. 

 

Tony is your man though hopefully you will get the odd nugget from the rest of us. He is man enough to accept suggestions. I think he is mainly a BMC man but loads of experience holding peoples hands I'm not dissing anybody else as there are loads of helpful people on here but Tracy D'Arth has also been very good although I don't think you have come across her yet

 

very worried in case I am talking bollocks and I really don't want to confuse you. I'm sure I will be put in my place shortly!!

 

Anyway Good luck

Don’t feel bad, shit happens and this is the price you pay if you have no idea what you are dealing with and learning as you go (I.e -me)

 

BUT that being said replacing the head without looking at it even to me sounds mad and I’m not willing to just Willy nilly agree to an engineer who came with no tools that his diagnosis is correct! 
 

I can tell you folks kno what you are talking about so in no way disregarding that I’m completely on board with the suggestions and advice, I’ll that over this bloke that turned up today any day!!!

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am in no way questioning what you think you were told but there is so much in what you reported that makes me question how much the "engineer" really knew. I am sceptical about any canal based engineer unless I know them and their work personally.

 

When the gasket fails at the back of the exhaust manifold the coolant leaks into the exhaust duct, not out of the top of the gasket, or did the leaks it will not be enough to make clouds of steam. Where there may be clouds of steam is inside the exhaust and coming out the back of the boat, not into the engine bay.

 

Likewise, claiming clouds of steam will be caused by coolant leaking from the header tank is also fanciful UNLESS so much is lost the engine boils. If coolant leaking from the header tank hit the hot part of the exhaust manifold it would produce steam but at the rate of water loss you stated it would not be clouds, just some steam. Also, liquid from such a leak simply can't get into the exhaust UNLESS it gets sucked into the intake and passes right through the engine.

 

I think our ex Lister friend knows a lot more about those engines than the RCR bod. It sounds to me as if you may be getting lined up for a hefty bill. Please check that gasket or get it checked before you let anyone take the head off. It is likely to be an easy DIY job once you have the new gasket that is likely to cost well under £10 rather than well into three figures. If your engineer uses a tell-tale liquid and detects hydrocarbons in the exhaust then there is a point in taking the head off.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Tony, totally didn’t take it like that don’t worry! You folks know WAY more than I do so I’m just trying to absorb everything. 

 

My actual engineer who knows my engine and know him from years of work on my mates boat amongst other boats I know. The tricky thing is that he only goes as far to a certain area of London but thankfully happen to be there now. I’m going to get him round to diagnose with his own eyes and get him to test it. 
 

I did tell the rcr guy about the manifold and requested that he looked at it but he didn’t even come with tools and asked a colleague over the phone for confirmation so off the bat I was instantly not reassured of his diagnosis. 

 

 

 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

Apologies Tony if I haven’t quite understood exactly your point. I’m just relaying what the engineer told me. 

 

thanks for advice on the rest, i do really appreciate it! 
 

 

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Er - me thinks someone did not fully understand what was said about that gasket. If is at fault then the water leakage would be INTO the exhaust where the exhaust gasses would boil it to steam and eject it from the exhaust. Unless the coolant level fell to such a degree the engine overheated there is no way for steam to get into the engine bay.

 

The overflowing water making its way into the exhaust seems impossible to me. The exhaust is a sealed construction apart from the hull skin fitting.

 

 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

obviously I can’t take what he has told me for gospel. I’m not gona count my chickens yet until I have my own engineer come out as a 2nd opinion (well 3rd including everyone’s input as above) 

 

ofc rcr are gona try and cover their ass for any other problems

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

Hi,

RCR came out, said it’s the head gasket.

Water is making its way through the oil way and the cylinder, as it’s burning oil and oil is slowly going down consistently. AND or cylinder valves rings/ injector pumps are failing (I think that’s the right terminology he said)

 

Ruled out exhaust manifold gasket as the coolant isn’t going down fast enough/ would be creating lots of steam in engine bay and said the overflowing maybbe the reason why water is making it’s way into exhaust.

 

Said if definitely not be the head gasket it’s the valves but would be advisable (which I will do) to replace the head, as it’s off anyway so might as well.

In mean time until I get it seen to, said to keep an eye on oil and water, check oil 30mins-1hr after use and don’t rev too high. Any other advice let me know, thankyou for all the previous help and advice 

 

T

 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

5 hours ago, Steve56 said:

Make sure the oil is API CC. Should say on the can. If not sure just post what it says and I'm sure someone will advise.

This is the oil I have been advised to get which says it’s performance levels are API CG-4/ CF-4/SJ/SL

 
the oil currently in the engine already is 10w/40 API-CC/SF

 

thoughts? Considering I am using the engine to charge batteries/ heat calorifier every other day  

(Fyi have plenty of solar) 

 

 

 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

Am calling out canal rescue today!

14 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

The other issue with these engines was bore glazing. It was a common fault if running under light load and using a high spec oil. Ideally you should be using an API CC oil. If that is the case you may be able to clear it by ensuring the correct spec oil then run in gear at full speed. Keep an eye on temperatures as your cooling system may not be man enough to cope. And yes I do know that CRT say you shouldn't do this.

this is exactly what my engineer a couple of wks said it was and I have bought 15w-40 on his recommendation, need to change so will change filter then too, and under the advice of all the above change every 100hrs.

 

I have tried clearing it it’s ALOT of smoke 

 

and not entirely sure it worked 

She starts well even in freezing weather 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

When I bought the broker said had services from the owner, but obviously this doesn’t mean it was done properly. 
has no history, unless I’ve been told fibs to.

 

interesting Ray T, maybe the reasoning for the bolt coming unthreaded, maybe something to consider.
 

here are pics of the exhaust spitting if interested, also bit of context, this was after having been run for 25 mins) 

 

(disclaimer- stopped engine after seeing how much was coming out, I am not polluting the canal anymore)

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

Glad that one’s cleared up. I certainly am no expert at all but either way I have come away from this thread knowing a hell of a lot more than I did this morning. 

it’s wonderful that people WANT to give their valuable knowledge and time to do so. I can see the annoyance if people weren’t being so helpful as to not give detailed explanations/ pics. It’s good folks like myself who are not as knowledgable are not scared to ask on here. With some fb boater pages You would just get barked down at ‘why do you live on a boat if you don’t know how to fix everything’- I’m here to learn, we all have to start somewhere ! 

 

i really do appreciate all of it, so thanks again 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

4 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

 

River Canal Rescue are about £60 to join for the year which could be worth it in the future and £40 for a callout. Tell them you have water in the exhaust and show them this thread.

They don’t get very good press on this forum but I got them when I had a fuel pipe burst in Wigan and they were very good. There was diesel everywhere the engine had been fitted without a flexible......I’ve heard other people having good experience with them maybe only bad experience reported here He fitted a flexible on both pipes and sucked all the spilled diesel out, mopped up and disposed of the contaminated diesel. All for £40 and left me with spare rubber pipe

At least they have a van full of tools (hopefully) which makes life easier

 

Well funny you mention I’m actually already with them but I thought it may not be a big enough job to call them out for but CLEARLY it is I’m actually quite worried now, well more worried than I was.

 

I do really appreciate all the time you have and the rest of the people on the thread have put in to advise ! 
 

happy new year to you, cheers again

 

 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

5 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I’m assuming that you have skin tank cooling and not raw water cooling. The exhaust manifold will probably look like my photo although there are some specifically for skin tank cooling without the slot. 

For skin tank cooling the slot is covered by a full gasket stopping water coming out of the slot and into the exhaust. The water instead exits via an elbow in the top of the manifold into the skin tank. If this full gasket fails you will get coolant leaking into the exhaust (and also into the cylinders). (For raw water cooling the coolant comes out of the slot and is “injected” into the exhaust so the manifold with slot is used for both methods of cooling). This would explain the spitting from the exhaust (as would water that has leaked into the exhaust) the oil is probably out of the exhaust it can be yukky inside it! You can buy new gaskets from Sleeman Hawkenbut specify the one without the slot! I think it could be a good idea to prevent reoccurrence with a metal plate as well as the gasket. This is a known problem with these engines and can cause terminal damage if left. 

A bit of black smoke if you change revs quickly is quite normal caused by temporary over fuelling. 

I think the oil leak is probably a separate issue but you need to attend to the manifold gasket promptly to avoid damage if that is the issue

Hope this helps. I have had issues with oil leaks on my LPWS2 and can probably help in the future but fix the water first!

 

 

 

Thank you this is v v v helpful. 
there would be no reason to not be able to check the bolts, even though I understand what you are saying I would be so worried I would fudge something up without the knowledge to fix.

For someone to come and fix this specific problem what would you imagine they would charge or hours to be able to do (just so I know I’m not being had on)

I wish I had the know how to do this sort of thing but I guess this is how you learn ay! 
 

28 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. A minor fuel leak from a banjo bolt is unlikely to cause any problems.

 

2. The lost bolt is almost certainly a nut and set screw (a set screw is a bolt with the thread all the way to the head. Any old matched nut and screw of the correct diameter will do.

 

3.  That header tank is an automotive unit, I doubt Lister paid to have them specially made, so the markings relate top a vehicle with a far lower coolant capacity than a tank cooled canal boat. Accepting what was said about that exhaust flange gasket it sounds to me as if the coolant loss may well be because you are overfilling it for your coolant capacity. If you do not top it up and kit drops another 5 to 10mm, then another 5 to 10mm then it indicates a leak, but if it does not drop then you were over filing it. See my advice above for establishing the correct maximum level.

 

Thanks Tony, this makes perfect sense I.e the coolant level

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

Thanks for all the advice-

just to be clear, I’m not experiencing symptoms of misfirings so unsure that it this.

 

-the washer needing replacing is the copper seal ring for the fuel injector banjo bolt 

-the lost bolt is to secure the header tank, this could just be coincidence that this has come unthreaded but thought I would mention as this had happened in the past couple of days 

-coolant lost after running is usually about 5- 10mm depending on how long I’ve ran her for from the max line in the header tank, even if I’ve been running for a few hours and even under load it never goes down more than this. 

- overall the levels of oil/ coolant don’t dramatically go down sometimes they don’t go down at all. 
 

*update* sorry for previous confusion it’s a mixture of fuel and coolant in the bilge 

I cleared some out today

 

will upload images 

 

 
 

 

 

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

53 minutes ago, David Mack said:

White smoke can be caused by unburned diesel or water in the exhaust. If it doesn't clear pretty quickly after starting the engine that could be indicative of injector problems or a failed head gasket. Either way it needs looking at by someone who knows what they are doing.

The smoke is not constant it’s only ever when I rev quite high but yes agreed will get someone out who knows what they are doing, cheers

[Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak]

48 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd say - YES and probably all down to lack of maintenance.

 

I have the workshop manual for the LPWS engines and if you would like a copy, send me a message with your email and I'll forward it to you.

 

The LPWS engines (when well maintained and serviced every 100 hours are superb engines - mine had done well over 10,000 hours and never used (or lost) a drop of oil. When we bought the boat the bottom of the engine bilge was covered in white kitchen roll and it never ever showed a 'spot' of anything between services.

 

I rate them VERY VERY highly, but they are not just "use and forget" engines, you have to give something back.

 

Edit to add : I also have the operators manual, detailed specifications and full part number list of every component if you would like them.

Hi as not done enough posts on here I can’t access/ send PMs. Would be very useful