Big COL
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Posts posted by Big COL
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Ok guys
whats the correct terminology when applied to pumps?
cavitation or ventilation
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Ian
The soot is actually a problem, it's indicating that your stove is not burning efficiently.This is the same as a car on choke where the petrol mixture is richer than normal and you get black smoke. Oil stoves need regular maintainance - the burner pot should be decoked about every 6 weeks.
The principal that these stoves work on is they physicaly do not burn liquid diesel, as you start the stove off with a piece of firelighter your fuel setting should be at the minimum, as the burner pot warms up it will eventually get to a temperature where the fuel entering vaporises and ignites. This vapour is actually burning 1/2" above the base of the pot, at this point you can slowly increase the flow of fuel.The flame should burn with a blue tint, if it is burning with a yellow flame with wisps of black smoke then you have too much fuel coming in for the air available through the stove. The problem with oil stoves on boats is because of the short length of flue they have a very low draw this means the speed that the hot fumes escape at controls what air can be drawn in through the stove to replace it and therefor determines the ammount of fuel that your stove can use for the correct combustion.
To maintain the efficiency of your stove you need to keep the flue as clean as you can and decoke the burner pot regularly, also when the stove is running you need to keep the flue gasses as hot as you can - a doubled walled chiminey will help this - plus you need to check that you are not getting any downdraft, this is when the wind blows back down the chiminey. When the stove has been running for some time check the gasses leaving the chimney - all you should see is a heat haze. If there is any black smoke then your fuel setting is too high.
Generally the controls on these stoves will allow you to over supply fuel You need to play with the controls by gradually increasing the setting until you start to get wisps of black smoke out of the chimney, then close the control gradually until the smoke disappears,(allow 2 min between each adjustment as it will take this amount of time for the stove to react). This will indicate the limit that you can go to so as not to overfuel the stove, if at any time you do go too far you may find that the stove sounds like a chip pan boiling. This is exactly what is happening, there is too much fuel present and instead of vapourising and burning it's boiling on the floor of the burner pot, close the valve back to minimum and allow the stove to burn off the excess fuel then slowly increase the flow
First generation stoves tend to be more troublesome as they were domestic stoves valved down and fitted on boats, second generation stoves, sometimes called blueflame, are much better as they are designed for the low draw that you get on boat chimineys. I hope this imformation is of some help if nothing else you know how a stove works.
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Chris
Try and compare boiler outputs and efficiency to price, this may explain the price differential. Most of the small stoves used on boats, the boilers only have around a 2kw output, bubble have a model which has a 3kw boiler,
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Noah
Optimate have a model that is capable of being used on the start battery. I use one of these on my bow thruster battery, I think I paid about £60 for this. It works really well but, as I have said only for the start battery, as it is too undersized to handle the domestic set up.
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Paul
Re your last post, if you do decide to do the alteration, the bypass has to be at the aldi end as close as you can get it to the aldi. Not on the back of the stove as this will not work and you will need two valves as shown in yesterday,s drawing, as I said just clarifying your last post.
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Paul
Gas two/three times dearer than the stove.
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Chris
Some questions, firstly why go for a gravity system - kiss applies also to a fully pumped system and allows the pipes to be low down and can be far more versatile. Secondly do they make fin rads in 28mm, which they will need to be on a gravity system?
If 28mm fin rads are available then I can see no reason why this should not work, remember that when you come into the panel rad at the top , the return connects at the bottom diagonally opposite. This is also a good position to connect the feed from the header tank and then take the vent/bleed off from the other top connection directly above it.
Best regards
Colin
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Having thought it through, I'm considering 28mm pipework from the Bubbles or Refleks stove which will be located against the front bulkhead, rising to a single panel radiator 10metres away in the rear bedroom. (vent/expansion tank connected at this point). All flow directed into top connection in the radiator, and out at the bottom, where the piping will run horizontally back along the boat passing through two one-metre finrads.
It's all or nothing (no way to divert the flow) but I suppose heating the whole of a well insulated boat is logical, rather than just one or two zones. KISS principle applies.
Wiil it work?
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John
Thats not fair its only two valves, could have gone the whole hog an made it automatic using magvalves and relays.
best regards
Colin
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SALOON GALLEY BATHROOM BEDROOM 1 BEDROOM 2 ...etc
STOVE -----------------RAD1 ----------RAD2 ---------RAD3 -----x---- ALDI
| -------------------------------------------------------------------|<-bypass
| -------------------------------------------------------------------x valve
|__________________________________________|
return
(note: dotted lines are not pipes - just there to space out drawing )
As John suggests you have a reversal of flows with the two boilers. I have shown a way that you can isolate the aldi and use the stove, and vice versa. It will require you to fit a valved bypass after the last rad and before the aldi, between the flow and return from the aldi. also a valve on the flow after the bypass and before the aldi. To use the stove you open the valve on the bypass and close the valve on the flow. To use the aldi you close the valve on the bypass and open the valve on the flow. I have adapted your drawing to show the position of the two valves. In doing this you must be absolutely CERTAIN that you are not cutting off the supply from the header tank. The aldi has its own combined header tank so if you isolate the aldi as I have suggested the stove must have a header tank to allow for the expansion. This is an absolute must. It can be connected into the return where you fit the bypass. You didn't say how your rads are plumbed - if they are not plumbed for a gravity system then you will need a pump on the system when you use the stove. This can also go in the bypass pipe. Hope this is of some help
Best Regards
Colin
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Richard
Just thinking out loud, and not being critical, as I am sure you you have thought this through, but for the benefit of the others that are following this thread and may decide to replicate your system here are just a few thoughts that crossed my mind.
If you were to use both pipes through the rads as the flow, what size of pipe would you need to use from the boiler to the first rad,where it divides ? It would have to be larger than 22mm or you gain no advantage. You are doubling the surface area for the collection of heat on the flow so you must increase the available heat or the last rads on the system will never get hot. What is the size of the separate return ? This should be equal to the pipe that you use on the flow.
Also what size boiler are you using ? If you make the system more efficient to give off a certain quantity of heat the boiler has to be capable of remaking that heat, at the the very least - at the same rate, if it cannot do this you will have to balance the system and any advantage will have been lost. As you know you can only get out what you put in,the boiler output should be the first thing to consider when designing a system. If it is not capable of producing the heat then this system will not work. There are not many boilers on narrowboats that I can see supplying the make up temperature to run a system of this design.
Having said all this if all the criteria were met then you will have on hell of a system, may be too good for a well insulated narrowboat. Still you could always rename the boat to Richard's Sauna.
best regards
Colin
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John
I agree it does look that way, but I think it works by the difference in conductivity of the metals involved with the flow being the top pipe and made of copper, the aluminium fins conduct the heat up and away from the return and whatever heat remains in the return is collected and conducted up towards the flow. On my system the return is getting progressively cooler the more rads it passes through therefore the heat has been captured by the rads. If it was working as a heat exchanger you would expect the return to get progressively hotter. I am sure you will agree the physics here, but the explanation is my assumption, all I have to go on is my own system.
best regards
Colin
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Richard
Its the cumulative heat that the fins throw out, I have used both systems, and have used Claton's fin rads on my current boat. They are the most efficient rads that I have ever used. I have no connection with Clayton so there is no sales pitch here, they are just an extremely good product and easy to fit. I would stress that you send Clayton a layout and let them do the calcs, they do it for free, I checked their calculations for my boat and they were not trying to oversell.
best regards
Colin
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Alistair
Have a look at this link its something I came across when I was fitting out our boat. May be of interest to you.
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Alastair
The current standing on the use of red diesel in the UK is that at the moment the UK has a derogation until the end of december 06. After this date unless the goverment do something then the UK has to come in line with the rest of Europe, which will prohibit the use of red diesel in all pleasure craft ie boats, off roaders etc with the exception of heating.
I can see a lot of boaters returning to solid fuel or having to install a separate tank as the many conversions that I have been involved with most of them have used the main diesel tank as a supply because it was cheaper. Another point to consider is even if you have a separate tank for red diesel you may have to lug cans down the tow path to fill the heating tank, as most of the current suppliers on the canal that I have spoken to have indicated that, should this become law, then they will just switch over from red to white diesel and not bother with supplying red diesel as the cost involved to set up separate tanks and pumps just to supply the amount required for heating would not be cost effective. This will leave a lot of boaters being forced to pay the extra duty for their heating, as not evryone will be in a position to install separate tanks or be capable of lugging cans down the tow path.
It's all bad news. Who wanted to be a state in the United States of Europe anyway, they didn't ask me, so they must have asked the rest of you.
best regards
Colin
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On the subject of floors, and just out of interest, how many of you have inspection hatches at the rear of your boat that enables you to periodically check for water in the dry bilge?.
If you haven't one then here is a little tip on a quick and easy installation.Select a suitable point between the bearers at the rear of the boat as close as you can to the steel bulkhead that divides the wet and dry bilges. Using a brass pumpout deck fitting drill the appropriate sized hole, clear as much ballast as you can, this may require you to hammer and chisel through a paving slab or a brick depending on what has been used for ballast (this doesn't mean a 14lb sledge hammer or kangos because if you do you won't need an inspection hatch to see if there's any water - you'll be standing in it). If it's steel ingots then you won't be able to remove any but don't worry, ideally its better if you can get down to the base plate. All you need to do now is hacksaw off the hosetail on the back of the pumpout fitting position it in place and screw it to the floor. For future inspections all you need to do is to unscrew the centre bung and with a torch you can see the base plate and any water present. Those who have steel ballast and couldn't remove any to see the base plate can feed a dry taper through as far as you can to see if there is water present. Should there be then you can pump it out from here until you find the cause. Before someone says it could just be condensation I am only providing the means for you to be able to see any water and not probable causes, that can be for another thread.
For those of you that are at the ballasting stage this is the time to select your spot and leave a clear area then the fitting is easier. The idea of using a brassfitting is that you can polish it if it's in view, it's also neat and unobtrusive and eliminates the need to construct carriers that would be needed if it was a removable drop-in hatch,as I have said very easy at build stage, and quite easy on existing boats. Hope this helps some of you
All the best
Colin
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Stuart
10,560'' cubed equates to approximately 38 Gallons. Weight =380lbs or 172Kg
This was a quick calc on paper please check
Colin
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John
I did say ideally, this obviously needs to be thought about at planning stage, the majority of builders now like to have waste tanks across the boat as the trim only alters marginally between full and empty as opposed to having the tank on either side, because the size of the tanks are getting larger and larger and if positioned on the side causes listing. A 100 gallon tank is equivalent to 1/2 a metric ton which equates to a lot of mobile ballast.
On my boat the tank is positioned across the boat with connections for pump out and vent on both sides of the tank, this then allowed me to have a pumpout point on both sides and eliminates the need of dragging pumpout hoses over the roof of the boat. This is my personal preference as it's not the best of situations when they retrieve the hose and leave a trail of waste across the roof.
On the subject of aerobic and anaerobic organisms this is not the place to discuss the advantages/disadvantages, but very briefly you are obviously well aware of the advantage of having anaerobic organisms in the cleaning up of effluent, they do a magnificent job, but the down side is the odour they create in doing so, therefore not suitable for a boat waste tank, which is why the more oxygen that can be let in through the vents prolongs the tank from going anaerobic, but you know all this and I think your tugging my leg to see if I do.
As to the position of the vent, I have always assumed that the lower the vent the more chance the smell has to dissipate before it's at nose level. I cannot see any other logical reason other than this.
All the best
Colin
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Stuart
The vent pipe should be equal in size to the pump out pipe, usually 38mm I/D. This is to try and avoid the tank contents from going anaerobic and creating too many offending smells. Idealy the vent should be positioned under gunnel level, I would not recommend bringing a vent up to roof level as you will have a face full of obnoxious fumes when steering. The ideal set up is to have a pumpout fitting on both gunnels and a vent on both hull sides.See Lee Sanitation for a full explanation. Lee Sanitation
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Hi Richard
Just a little piece of info, that may be of help to you and others. If you find that you have a problem with lamps blowing due to excessive voltage you might find the following helpful. My friend had this problem with his 24volt lighting system, he found that his lamps were only lasting a very short time, due to the fact that his domestic voltage was running at 27volts, which is normal on a new boat with new batteries and connected to a land line through a multi inverter. Originally he was told that he would have to suffer this until his batteries became less efficient. However he discovered that some manufacturers produce lamps for a 27volt supply especially for this reason as they were aware that a problem existed with caravans and boats. I think for 12volts they are rated at 13.5 volts. He changed all his bulbs and the problem was cured.
Colin
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Tonymac
The stop, on many Thornycroft engines especially the early ones, is by a pull to stop cable. As you don't say which type of stop the engine is fitted with, if it is a cable type check that the arm on the injector pump is fully returning to the start position when the cable has been pushed back after stopping. If it's an electrical stop then follow the checks that John has suggested.
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Tonymac
If you have diesel at the injector pump, and the engine still will not start, slacken off the connections at two of the injectors on the engine, and turn the engine over with the starter untill diesel appears, retighten conections and the engine should run.
Colin
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Tonymac
Some Thornycroft engies are fitted with an electric diesel pump, this is what I suspect is what you can hear clicking. You don't say what model engine it is. On my last boat, which had a Thornycroft 80D engine, the pump looked like a round cylinder about 1.5'' Dia and about 7''long. in the top of the pump there is a washable filter which is possibly clogged and therefore not supplying diesel to the injector pump. To check this unscrew the pipe that goes from the pump to the injectors at the pump end and switch on the ignition to start the pump and see if it's delivering diesel. If not the problem is in the pump, ie the filter is clogged, or the problem is prior to the pump,check for any loose conections on the fuel line back from the pump to the tank. If there are any loose conections then the pump will suck in air through these and will not pump any diesel. If on the other hand there is diesel at the pump then reconnect the pump and bleed the system at the injector pump. To do this open the bleed screw on the injector pump and turn on the ignition until diesel appears through the bleed screw, when it does turn off the ignition, retighten the bleed screw, the engine should then start, hope this helps.
Colin
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Richard
If its a horisontal tank some have one coil above the other.
colin
Torgen Vs Squirrel
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted · Edited by Big COL
Richard
Are the rads getting hot? Is the first rad hotter than the second? How hot is the flow leaving the second rad and going to the cal? how hot is the return after the cal? also is the pump going the right way (as some pumps have a brown and black wire and the polarity is not as you would expect)? Finally what is the temperature differential between the flow and return at the boiler.