SailorJerold
-
Posts
24 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Gallery
Blogs
Store
Posts posted by SailorJerold
-
-
I don't know whether to just save up for my own shell, and fit an outboard or tow it my mooring. Start working on the internal fitout etc. The boat builders are all local(ish). I could get a diesel generator in there for my power needs initially and camp in it until I can afford to get an engine fitted.
-
21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Probably around £200. to lift out.
If the job is going to take more than a 'couple of hours' the yard may need to use the hoist for something else, there will then be a 'chocking up' charge and then a lift 'back in' charge of another £200.
If the job is a straight 'lift out' screw on new XXX and drop back in the water they may only charge a straight 1-off charge.
A good idea but either very 'limiting' or very 'costly'.
Limiting - you need to find the exact engine model that was either fitted previously or for which the 'new' hull has been designed
Costly - having to adapt the engine bearers to suit the engine that you have found. Is the gearbox suitable ? is the rotation of the engine / gearbox compatible with the direction of rotation of the prop ? (a new prop could be £300-£500)
You need to get access to the boat such that you can manhandle 250kg of engine (eg LPWS4) from a trolley onto the boat and lower it down into the engine hole - lowering it down by ropes suspended under a road bridge is not the most convenient.
The 'small' Springer boats were built with 3.75mm thick 'bottoms'. many are still in use today, many (most) have been replated). The insurance industry today will not comprehensively insure a boat with a bottom 4mm or less.
At £10k Springers will no doubt feature regularly in the OP's 'list of potentials'.
'Springers' have an interesting history :
Sam Springer spotted the growing market for purpose-built live-aboard boats in the late 1960s when he was working as a steel fabricator making water tanks in Market Harborough, close to the Grand Union and River Welland. He decided to move into boat-building later claiming “I used to build water tanks, building boats is the same thing but in reverse”. Although his boats were well constructed, Springer had a reputation for using whatever steel was available, meaning that his hulls weren’t always as thick as they could have been. His approach can be summarised by the popular yarn that early in his career, Springer acquired some scrap steel that had once formed an old gasometer and drove back and forwards over it with a truck to remove the bend so it was flat enough to use. Because of such shortcuts, his boats were recognised as providing great value for money and his yard was soon knocking out 400 a year, accounting for almost 50 per cent of the market and at a much lower price than any competition.
http://canalrivertrustwaterfront.org.uk/heritage/a-thrifty-beginning/
Haha I love that story. Sam Springer sounds like my kind of guy.
13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:On K&A Facebook group
Thanks for this. Good example of what kind of boat you can expect for the price probably.
-
9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:
I did the exact same thing before you mentioned it. It's weird they would sell that in an auction format!
I'm thinking buy the engine and get someone else to fit it. But like Menagerie says there is paying the guy to travel, the uplift expenses etc etc. I'm fairly handy with fitting car parts. Changed a fair few alternators and serpentine belts in my time but an engine is a whole different kettle of fish, especially on a boat I wouldn't have a clue. Not easy to cheap out the build process it seems.
-
1 minute ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:
See, 5miles (if no locks and there is a winding (3point turning) point precisely adjacent) is a 2.5hr round trip in a narrowboat. Which is fine if you can take that kind of time during daylight hours / have relaxed neighbours and great cruising lights on a functional boat. Which you might be able to accommodate if it is mostly for emptying cassette loo (couple of times/week?) or filling up with water (monthly?).
The other thing you'll need to consider is how far away/costly it is to get your boat out of the water and address hull issues (which there are likely to be on a <10k boat). Sounds like you have interior DIY skills and, even if you have to moor under a motorway bridge or something for someone to help you with exterior maintenance, that might be fine.
Welding though you'll need the boat out for. And probably someone else to do.
Definitely need to work out the costs, I think I'm quite lucky in terms of the amount of boatyards/marinas within a days trip from my location. I'm going to have a drive round the local boatyards/marinas and ask the questions. Really should be keeping a journal with all the associated costs of key repairs to plan long term but as mentioned on page 1 there seems to be an endless list of things that could go wrong! But knowing how much it will cost to get the boat out of the water would be a good start. Thanks,
-
3 hours ago, Murflynn said:
you asked a question. if you don't like the answers you are on the wrong forum.
I read that as "Don't immediately accept my wisdom then p*ss off."
3 hours ago, Murflynn said:perhaps you should try a forum dealing in fairy-tales that always end with living happily ever after.
And this I read as smug sardonicism.
But written words don't convey the nuances of human communication, just thought it was a pointless post that had nothing to do with the question asked.
No offense taken by it though. I'm not sensitive. I'm not sure it's not you who's just a bit of a moody Trudy.
I do appreciate the replies here. People have given me a lot to think about so far.
-
2 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:
PS facilities are a real issue... Does the mooring have water/elsan/pump out/showers/council tax commitment/communal WiFi thingy/etc? If not then you need to be prepared to drive to (and pay for) all/most of the above in your income source (car/cab) at periods when your boat is not functional or you don't have the time to cruise to them.
I decided against a mooring with slightly better garden than I have because it was less secure and, crucially, getting to/from a pump out point could be a half day round trip (when taking into account needing to go as far as a winding hole - and we're talking about a relatively faciltity-dense area here!).
There are CRT facilities within 5 miles of the mooring and some private ones 2 miles the other way. I do have back up couches; parents, brothers etc. To be honest I was thinking of doing most of my showering in the gym anyway. I must pass it 15 times a day! I've been to the site and my 4G phone internet has decent signal, so would be tethering for my internet usage. Rubbish I could take to the tip a couple of times a week on the way into my town.
-
1 minute ago, David Mack said:
Collingwood shell from £16,200, sailaway from £31,130.
Same thing though depending on specs of their shell. Why is it double for an engine? Is there money to be saved buying a shell + second hand engine and getting it fitted elsewhere (for future reference)
25 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:I saw a boat this week that once looked like this, it is now a very pretty boat so this has potential
The finished one I saw looked very similar to this one
Nice.
But I think the link you posted is for water safety lessons! I almost bid on it earlier!
18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:I know every post I am making has a hint of negativity, but I'd rather you know both sides - you can find all the 'its a wonderful life' videos on YouTube.
With a small boat (30 foot) if it needs overplating it needs to be very carefully done as the overplating can add a large weight (proportionally) to the boat making it sit much lower in the water. There was an example a year or two ago where one had been overplated and it was itting so low in the water that the engine room vents were only just above the water level. - it sank in seconds.
This was on the Thames.
I will see if I can find the news reports.
Note the last paragraph - surveyors are not infallible.
Overplated NB Sinks on the Thames.
Here it is probably apposite to quote the case of the narrow boat MINI MOO ex MARY MINT. The following is quoted verbatim from a Safety Bulletin issued by the Port of London Authority: –
On the 24th August 2012, a narrow boat was delivered by road to South Dock Marina in London for a new owner. The vessel was lifted into the dock and the new owner requested to lock out of the marina as they had an overnight berth in Lime House Marina; a short distance up the River Thames. The vessel departed the lock at 17:00 with 5 adults and 1 dog aboard. As they departed the lock the lock keeper commented to them that they should have lifejackets on board as they appeared to be missing. The crew decided to continue on and left the lock with 3 adults in the aft cockpit and 2 adults in the cabin. The vessel transited directly across the river to the starboard side of the channel and then turned upriver towards Lime House Marina. Shortly into their transit the crew noted a change in the engine note and opened the engine room hatch to find the engine half submerged. All persons quickly moved to the stern to try and bail out the engine room, but were unable to cope with the ingress of water into the vessel. The engine room continued to fill with water and flooded into the main cabin, submerging the aft coaming below the water, resulting in severe flooding of the vessel which sank within 10 seconds. All of the crew and the dog entered the water without lifejackets, but were rescued by a nearby RIB and Police Launch.Marine surveyors and others concerned with narrowboats should obtain a copy of the Bulletin from the PLA and take note of its recommendations.
It was noted by the PLA that the vessel had been the subject of extensive overplating. Whoever had recommended the overplating had also recommended partly blocking off the engine room air jalousie on the port side as its bottom edge was considered even then to be too near the waterline. The following Figure 1 below shows the effect of the overplating and the number of persons seated aft.
The buyer of the MINI MOO bought the boat on the strength of a survey report provided by the seller. The marine surveyor concerned had estimated the height of the engine air intake jalousie from water level marks on the hull although the vessel had been out of the water for a considerable time prior to his survey. He had estimated the intake to be 200 mm above the waterline but when it measured after the salvage it was only 65 mm. The marine surveyor had covered himself with the caveat that it was an estimate only. In that particular case, when the vessel sank, no life jackets were on board and at least one person on board could not swim. The survivors were very lucky that nearby boats managed to pluck them from the water immediately. The fact that a marine surveyor’s report perhaps covers him with words such as estimated does not provide much comfort if bodies have to be pulled from the water.
Thats a scary read. Point taken. Glad everyone made it in that case.
-
1 minute ago, David Mack said:
Liverpool ceased trading years ago!
Just now, Loddon said:I thought Liverpool boats ceased trading and became aintree boats and collingwood .......
Im probably looking at several years ago prices then. My mistake. Like I said I saw a video of them and looked them up.
-
1 minute ago, David Mack said:
Aintree 45 ft narrowboat shell only, no engine, no insulation is £16k. I think finding one for £13k would be tough!
Liverpool boat builders do a 45 ft sailaway for £19.5k
-
4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:
That sounds remarkably cheap.
I can't imagine it would be up to much.
Can you provide a link, please?Liverpool Boat Builders
http://www.liverpoolboatco.co.uk/id6.html
Saw a video of the guys making it, looked legit I think they said 10" base plate 4" superstructure but thats from memory don't quote me on it.
-
4 minutes ago, restlessnomad said:
3rd one looks good.
from personal finance point of view, I think buying and immediately living on it saves you more money... why pay another 5k to 10k rent + CRT license
True true. This would only be if she was a proper fixer upper. If I could feasibly live there I would do.
To answer your previous question I'm a cabbie in Cheshire.
3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:Exactly what Alan said re leaks. Any combination of steel hull plus a different material cabin is likely to eventually leak and on an older boat even it it once had a steel up-stand inside the cabin side base that up-stand may well be rusted through so more leaks. Such boats can be tarted up with cover strips and lots of sealer to be leak free on a temporary basis but they all seem to leak eventually. If possible within budget avoid. A cabin side leak dripping onto your bed during a storm at 3am is not pleasant and drying the bedding and mattress will be difficult
Thanks for this I will definitely bare it in mind whilst browsing.
-
5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
It will vary whereabouts ion the country you are looking
Survey cost will be £500-£800 lift out will be £200 (ish)
Remember that you need to 'get it home' and many of the canals are closed for Winter maintenance - do you have a couple of weeks to bring one back from London ?
If you have it carried on a truck you will have to get it somehwere with a crane, then £150 - £200 for a lift out, £800-£1000 for the truck and £200 for a lift back in.
I paid £2300 last month for a truck to move my boat 200 miles + £180 at each end for hoists. BUT, it was a widebeam not a narrowboat.
I do have the time to chug it home but would prefer not to if it was anything like the hellscape in the 2nd link on your previous post.
I will definitely have to take into account transport costs though, thanks for the rough idea on prices I can expect to pay should it need moving by truck
-
6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
One of the problems of buying at the bottom end of the market is how many 'bad' ones you will find.
You have a budget of £10,000.
It will cost you getting on for £1000 to have the boat dry docked and surveyed, the surveyor finds problems and trells you it will cost £10,000 to sort out, you decide not to go ahead.
You have spent £1k of your budget and are now left with £9k. You find another boat and pay your £1k for the lift out and survey, surveyor says needs £8k on plating and £5k on an engine rebuild, you decide not to go ahead,
You have now spent £2k and have £8k left to buy a boat - how many 'ugly ducklings' will you go thru before you find one that only needs a couple of thousand spending on it ?
If you can wait and increase your budget to (say) £20k you stand a much better chance of one that will 'pass' the surveyor 1st time.
There are dozens of 'projects' lying in boat yards that people have bought to 'do the dream' and after 2, 3 or 5 years and £1000's of pounds in yard charges have given up and walked away.
Try asking another question "does anyone know of any abandoned projects' lying around ?
Some yards will actually pay to take away (what they see as) scrap.
This makes a lot of sense I'd be loathe for it to happen several times at £1k a pop. How much for a structural survey?
I will research unfinished project boats to see whats lying around. A prerequisite at the moment is that it floats and drives. Pretty much the only criteria I want.
-
13 minutes ago, Athy said:
It IS true that lower-end boats seem to have gone up in price. In 2010 I bought a scruffy but basically sound 26 foot Springer for £7,800. Similar boats today are advertised at around £12,000. So it might be advisable, if you can, to revise your budget upwards.
Have you been to see any for-sale boats yet?
On ebay at the moment a couple caught my eye. But have so far not made any visits.
There is this shed on steel:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F124027521930
This has a bit of a wierd survey in the pictures but looks pretty:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F274132893811
This one I would love to go and buy:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F202861508135
Thats slightly over though at £13k but I could probably stretch to it.
Should mention also that once I purchase a boat I will still be saving and would not be moving in for probably another 6 months to a year depending on when I buy it to save for an emergency fund and pay for any repair work that I can't do myself. It won't be a case of life savings in then I'm destitute if I need a repair.
-
3 minutes ago, Athy said:
Fair comment.
There is no need for anyone to leave it at the moment. Actually the words of Murflynn (a very experienced boater, I believe) DO add something - a note of caution, which actually isn't a bad thing
I'm sorry but the first reply was less a note of caution and more of a 'get lost' with a heavy hint of sardonic.
The reply to your reply fair enough.
I've not said that this is my plan. I've not said this is what I'm doing. I've said I'm always tempted when I see the boats come up on Ebay. These boats get sold, so some people clearly buy them and I was hoping to hear from them people.
So far the replies I've had suggest that the boats are write offs or that it would cost more to repair than buying a boat 4 times its price. I am interested to know what the cost and effort implications are of such a boat.
-
2 minutes ago, Murflynn said:
there's none so deaf as those who don't want to listen.
you asked a question. if you don't like the answers you are on the wrong forum.
perhaps you should try a forum dealing in fairy-tales that always end with living happily ever after.
Your entitled to your opinion but again I was asking for people's experience and this reply adds absolutely nothing to the discourse. Perhaps you are the one who should leave this thread, as, unless a mod asks me to leave I think I'll elect to stay.
-
1
-
-
34 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:
Careful Alan, you will get accused of being negative as I have been.
Its sad that with all the information available on here and elsewhere that there are still the potential boaters who are unaware that living on a boat in a decent way is never going to be cheap.
I rent out flats in the north of Lancashire that are far cheaper than living on any boat, never mind the folk who want to live in London areas.
Who said cheap?
It is for a fact cheaper.
25 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:? Plus you cant put a price on the satisfaction of not paying down someone elses mortgage whilst they are living it up on their boat! ☹️
Oooh that hurt!
A ) I don't have any mortgage.
B ) My property is rented out at a low rate so I pay less tax.
C ) I am not at present living it up on my boat, we overwinter in the Philippines.
D ) We worked damn hard and long to get where we are and sour grapes because we live so well is uncalled for.
Sam.
There are no sour grapes towards you my friend. I've no doubt you worked hard. Lots of people work hard and I intend to one day own my own house mortgage free.(or a nice widebeam with a 2000Ah battery bank).
I spoke to an old chap who was in my taxi the other day, he told me he bought his house for the princely sum of £6.5k and has lived in it all his life. Its now worth upwards of £500k. His salary as a state school teacher at the time was £2k.
How many times more the average state school teacher salary of £23k is £500k?
A lot of people with £80k boats say that its too expensive though for an average joe to start out.
I'm also aware of the increasing number of people who choose to live this way and the stigma that this can create for the more 'traditional' people who live aboard in terms of wanting to protect that way of life.
My grandad had a narrowboat in his youth, I want to live on one. I'm going to buy one.
This is majorly off topic and I don't know why everyone has got their backs up about the fact that it CAN be cheaper.
Has anyone bought and successfully renovated a sub 10k steel narrowboat or regretted such a purchase?
I am trying to get peoples personal experiences rather than opinions on whether or not it would or wouldn't be a bad decision to do so. If no one has. Fair enough.
-
2
-
-
8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Just before you 'make the jump' are you 'up to speed' on the costs of maintaining and mooring a boat ?
Your mooring costs will vary by location - London can be £10,000 - £15,000 per annum for a liveaboard, the Midlands can be nearer £4,000 - £5,000. Farmers field moorings can be even less.
Mooring costs will also vary with facilities offered, do you want security (gated access), water, electricity, toilet emptying, close to shops, car parking etc etc. - the more you 'get' generally the more expensive they will be.
Marinas will often not offer a reduced price for (say) a 30 foot boat because you are still taking up a pontoon that could (say) accommodate a 50 or 60 foot boat. If they need to fill 'space' and get some income, they may do a deal, if the are fairly full, they may not.
If you do not need to be in a 'fixed area' for family / work / hospital or whatever reasons and are free to move about then you can 'continuously cruise' without having a mooring. The downside (for some) is that you have to move every few days (usually 14 days) to a new place and you cannot just go A to B to A to B etc, you do need to be actually 'moving about'.
In addition to mooring costs and 'general running and maintenance costs, you will need :
Boat licence (a 30 foot boat is about £750 per annum 2020/21 rate)
Boat insurance (fully comprehensive £100-£150 per annum)
Boat Safety Certificate (Boat version of the MoT)
Boating is not a 'cheap way' of living even when compared to renting a house.
Yes I am aware of the associated costs, I already pay £1365 per annum for a CRT mooring of up to 50 ft near a small village just outside my town. Its currently unoccupied pending me buying a boat but wanted to secure the location.
Whilst I understand its not necessarily cheaper and that costs can be a bit lumpy and awkward in terms of when they are due. It will be my boat. And all the money I save day to day will go into the kitty for repairs.
Plus you cant put a price on the satisfaction of not paying down someone elses mortgage whilst they are living it up on their boat!!
-
1
-
-
49 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:
I imagine mine will go for under 10k when I finally sell it. It's been resteeled twice, so in perfectly good nick, but very old style layout inside and as I refitted it, not to a magnificent standard. 40 foot with a 27 foot cabin, so quite small, old Lister much refurbished.
All I'll want for it is enough to buy a small cruiser so I can stay on the water and potter about. It cost me eight grand thirty years ago and it'll be nice if it goes to someone who needs it as much as I did. It all depends, I think, on what you want a boat for
Well it would be my house. But im not looking for anything fancy. Im 30 with no prospect of a mortgage and am currently paying around £10k per annum in rent.
We should keep in touch if you are not selling it immediately it would be a couple more months before I have the cash together.
27 minutes ago, restlessnomad said:I think you can find decent small(<40ft) boat on apolloduck for around 20k, one that is not falling off and immediately liveable but need maintenance and modification to your taste.
I'll check them out, thanks.
-
6 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:
What does go wrong.
Integral water tank top/deck floor rotted.
Gas lockers rotted through.
So much rust under the floor that there are no knees and braces left.
Weed hatch falling off.
Hull sides warn away over rear swim.
Baseplate lost all corners, thin.
Skin cooling tank rotted inside swim.
Roof cross braces gone.
Cabin sides rusted away around windows and roof vents same.
Honey tank leaked.
Front bulkhead rotted away from floor.
All over deep pitting of hull.
Windows unusable.
Diesel tank leaking into rudder tube.
Hull perforated behind rubbing strakes.
All of which are expensive and difficult to fix. All occur regularly. Any 2 or 3 will right the boat off if it has not already sunk.
Jeez. Quite a list. I mean you can get a brand new insulated shell with tanks for 13k.
Whats the going rate for a 2nd hand engine for a 30ft boat? Whats the average price of an engine installation?
If your doing the internal fit yourself is it cheaper to buy a brand new shell than a 2nd hand project boat? The boatyard adds around £10k for the engine to be fitted, is there money to be saved there?
I don't believe that you have to shell out £30-40k for a small narrowboat in good working order.
Let me know if you pick up another sinker.
-
2 minutes ago, Loddon said:
Sub £10k you will always get a much better fibreglass boat than a narrowboat.
44 minutes ago, Murflynn said:there will always be exceptions but, for the unwary, it is likely that any really cheap steel boat will end up as a money pit.
10K might buy a GRP cruiser in half-decent condition, but a steel hulled vessel is another kettle of fish.
Thats the conventional wisdom I know.
Have you ever bought a cheap steel boat?
What can go wrong?
I'm trying to think of the possible issues and what it would take to resolve them.
Issues with the hull and superstructure, issues with the engine, when it next needs blacking, what else?
Im competent with electrics and carpentry, are there any other boat specific structural/mechanical issues you can add to the list.
Even if you pay 20k you are probably pushing these issues a couple of years down the line. I'd rather sort issues myself now and know where I'm up to.
You are not going to get a perfect boat for this price. Maybe a shell of a small old boat with a working engine and propulsion system is possible though?
I was really just wanting to hear from a few people stupid enough to have done it to ask did the risk pay off or did they regret their purchase.
Not that I don't appreciate your input!
13 minutes ago, restlessnomad said:the general advice of the forum is, if you are asking the question, you should not buy the boat, boats at lower end of scale are project boat which needs a lot of money and time, and most people want to enjoy living in narrowboat not cleaning/building/maintaining it.
I honestly don't mind a bit of a project as long as it floats and drives!
-
Nice one, if in good working order sounds like a bargain for the person that bought it to be fair!
-
I'm new to narrowboating, have been on a holiday or two.
Every so often a 32 ft narrowboat comes up for less than 10k on ebay etc and it always tempts me to take a punt on it.
Is this a reasonable price for a small oldish boat in working order direct from a private seller?
What is the cheapest boat you have bought and lived on for any length of time?
Did you regret your purchase?
What are the dangers and pitfalls to look out for when buying an old boat?
I realise that these are really general questions but I'm just interested in peoples personal experience.
Sub £10k Narrowboats
in New to Boating?
Posted
Are you still here! Haha. reading it back I can see how stupid that sounds.
Look I get the picture, you may as well throw 10k in the canal rather than buy a boat at that price. Thanks for everyone's helpful advice, I will repost this question again when I have £20k.
This thread blew up and I'm grateful for everyone's input. I'm just a man with a dream and hopefully one day i will float past ya.