[Selling a boat without a BSS]

Hi all, I am about to sell my boat. I am not living on board anymore, and my BSC expired a few months ago. I started going through the motions of renewing it, however, it just occurred to me that it might be possible that I sell the boat without the certificate. Does anybody know whether this is possible? I cannot seem to find a definitive answer online. 

 

And if I am to sell my boat without the certificate, therefore shifting the responsibility of issuing a new one onto the next owner, would that significantly impact the value of my boat (beyond the ~£150 which I am bound to pay to the BSC surveyor). I am interested in learning whether anybody has personal experience with this. Thanks all!

[Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?]

Update on the interested: boat was apparently sold to another buyer over the weekend who was 'less hassle than me', and seller didn't see it as necessary to update me... Am not particularly fazed by it, but it's also funny to think how the real world doesn't stop turning while we dissect every possible scenario online... Thanks to those who chipped in with advice

[Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?]

57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just wondering why you didn't fill in that 'box' on your Avatar.

Leaving it blanks it always going to lead to assumptions.

 

You are a woman - be proud of it, don't hide your light under a bushel.

Didn't fill it in because whether I am a man or a woman makes no difference to the discussion - and for this same reason I believe that when you don't know somebody's gender, you don't just assume it, you ask. Of course, there is the underlying assumption that it must be a guy who would be undertaking the manly endeavour of boating that I was taking a jab at, more light-heartedly than anything, so I won't fight any battles here

[Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?]

On 01/12/2018 at 14:46, Alan de Enfield said:

Receipts with their name on them would provide the nearest you can get to proof of boat ownership - it shows a connection to the boat over a period of time.

It is quite possible he bought it as a 'wreck' had it stored on the 'hard' for some months whilst he re-fitted it (and therefore didn't need a licence) and is now selling it.

So not being licensed is not a big issue.

 

My concerns would be :

He refuses to sign a standard bill-of-sale

It is priced (seemingly) way below market value.

 

If it is too good to be true …………………………….

 

Are you prepared to divulge the sort of price level we are talking about ?

I'm assuming its not a £100,000 boat in which case £4k 'underpriced' is a small percentage, whilst if its a £15k boat its a huge percentage.

 

Is the seller an Nigerian Price by any chance ?

The boat costs less than 15k, therefore the 4k underpricing (according to my seller) comes to around 30% of the value.... would the price in itself be a point of concern to me, as the icing on the cake of the rest of my concerns?

3 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

It was a new shell with engine when I bought it 30 years ago. The condition of any boat is not what the OP was concerned about. He worries about ownership and validity of sale. Basically, the only purchase you can make with any level of certainty is a house, where the Land Registry has the details you need, (at least most of the time; there have been exceptions)

You also have recourse through your solicitor/conveyancer. Most brokers terms I have seen abrogate this responsibility. In short terms, I would think it is as difficult for another party to prove that you have their boat once you have bought it. As with many things, possession is 9 points of the law.

 

The OP is a she. Women can buy boats too, you know

[Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?]

On 01/12/2018 at 14:50, Mad Harold said:

You definitely need to know the boat is theirs to sell.  Original bill of sale,mooring invoice,bills for work done with the vendor's name on them,vendors home address.and a signed declaration that there is no outstanding finance or loan with the boat as security.

Hi Harold, do you happen to know of templates available online for the declaration for no outstanding finance? Alternatively, if my seller just improvises a few sentences on a piece of paper and signs it, saying that the boat has no debt (like he wants to do), is that any good for the future? I know there might not be a straightforward answer to this question, but perhaps somebody with experience on here could share their perspective...

[Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?]

21 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok, getting real. I have bought a number of boats over the years and there is definitely a culture of trust which you are upsetting by asking some possibly not very literate seller to sign a legal-looking document. I'd be wary too. On the other hand you need to know the boat really belongs to him and here your spidey senses come into play. Does he know the boat well? (E.G. was he able to show you where the water pump was when you asked, with no hesitation? Could he tell you who last serviced the engine? What was his opinion of the last boatyard to haul it out and black it?)

 

And obviously does he have a sheaf of paperwork that goes with the boat? Any of it with his name on?

 

From the bit about him not being registered with CRT as the licence holder, did you ask how long he has owned it? If a long time then where WAS it licenced? On say, the Thames? Where DID he have it licensed? Or if he has only just bought it, have you seen the receipt? 

 

He obviously doesn't live on the boat so where does he live? One of my favourite ways of checking is to visit the address of the seller (make some excuse) to check he actually answers the door. Then run a Land Registry check on the address to see if the owner has the same name. If the boat sale turns out to be fraudulent you can be pretty sure the home address you've been given will be false, and vice versa.

 

 

 

Nice advice, thanks. The guy has just owned it a couple of months, and it has been at a hard standing, apparently (will confirm that with marina tomorrow), so was never licensed in any way, neither does he have a receipt of purchase ('can't find it').

On 01/12/2018 at 17:42, john6767 said:

If it is not on CRT waters then yes, you will be looking for a registration with a different navigation authority, and the same applies with them.  If it is temporarily out of that water from CRT water, then any genuine owner would have registered as the owner with CRT and declared it out of that water, ie no licence needed.  Any other behaviour is not normal and raises a red flag.

You have a fair point, thanks. If we assume the boat was purchased while at a hard standing, then from what I understand the new owner could have still registered it with the CRT without paying for a license. But is it actually their responsibility to do so after purchasing? 

[Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?]

16 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Twas always thus. Hence why the chancers steal boats of medium value and try to flog them off.

If I were buying this boat I would want some solid proof of identity and a way of finding the guy in future. What is to say that he has not simply "borrowed" it from the hard standing, had it launched and flogged it?

Does the yard where it was know any solid facts about the boat?

Boat is still in hard standing at the moment, I will contact the boat yard to find out how long has the boat been there, who has been paying for the works, etc., thanks for the advice.

[Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?]

3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It'll be interesting when I come to sell my boat. I suppose I have receipts for bits and pieces, but the only real proof that I ever bought it is an undated (we just forgot) receipt from a now untraceable bloke. 

I don't recall the OP telling us the name or number of the boat, or where it is, though I may have missed it. Someone here may know its history. 

Boat's name is Eden, number 77425. Anybody know anything about it? Have already checked it in the Canalplan website, but the info there does not give away much...

[Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?]

Hi Alan, no I have not seen any document bearing their name, I will ask again in hopes I can at least see some receipts (but again, if they don't have a license for the boat, what would the receipts serve to prove?)

 

Price-wise, boat is going for 4k less than what my surveyor valued it at - most peculiar.....

 

Hey Paul - CRT unfortunately cannot give away the name of the current licenser, due to data protection. I already have the boat name and reg number - can I find an archive myself online of the history of registration of the boat? Thank would indeed be useful.

[Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?]

Hi all, I would really appreciate your help!

 

I have found a lovely boat, got it surveyed, agreed on a price with the seller, arranged to have it transported across the country to London. However, just after we agreed on the price with the seller, I sent them a contract which I wanted both of us to sign - a pretty standard template "CONDITIONAL AGREEMENT FOR THE PURCHASE OF A SECOND- HAND VESSEL" which can be found online. However, they refused, saying that the language was too complicated, and refused to sign any kind of contract - saying it is not necessary. My first question is whether we definitely need to sign a contract, and whether the simple RYA 'Bill of Sale' available online would be sufficient (some argue this particular Bill of sale does not address the matter of outstanding payments/mortgages on the boat - I'd appreciate your take on this). 

 

My second questions is related to proof of ownership - this seller does not have any kind of document to prove the boat is theirs, and furthermore - they never registered it with the CRT (claiming that in the last few months while they owned it, it has been out of the water). Therefore, if this person is not the license holder according to the CRT, will they be able to transfer me ownership of the boat?

 

My final question is related to the process of transfer of ownership itself - acc. to the CRT website, it is the responsibility of the seller to contact them and let them know that they have transferred ownership of the boat to me (as outlined on the CRT website here: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/buy-your-boat-licence/licensing-faqs#buying). However, the seller argues they will not have such a responsibility, and that when I transfer the full sum, I will simply call the CRT to say I have come in possession of the boat. Is this true - is a phone call from me sufficient, or we would still have to fill out the CRT Transfer of ownership form? Can we even fill out this form, if somebody who is not the current (proclaimed) owner holds the license to the boat? (Admittedly I do not know if that license is still valid, will be calling up CRT first thing Monday morning to find out.)

 

I know this all seems too dodgy, so I would really appreciate your advice on what would be the wisest course of action for me to follow, and which are the conditions that I must insist on from the seller (like signing the bill of purchase and/or contacting the CRT to transfer ownership to me). Thank you all in advance!

 

Leaf of grass