towpathrider
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Posts posted by towpathrider
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I currently have two skin tanks, one connected to a beta 38, which provides propulsion and the other connected to a beta 35, which runs a genset.
The engines are never used simultaneously.
The beta 38 skin tank is undersized, and while this hasn't been an issue yet on canals I'd like to connect the two tanks to allow for more cooling capacity if on rivers/tidal.
Would a simple connecting hose/pipe between the two tanks be sufficient enough to allow coolant to flow between the tanks, if it is of sufficient bore i.e. 28mm?
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All of these are pretty poor compromises. You really want the out and back pipes of he loop to be spaced apart vertically, with the rads in between. If you are stuck with the current pipe layout, then a pump may well be needed. You will still need a continuous rise from the boiler to the vent, to vent air when filling, and to allow steam to escape if the boiler boils (which it might if the pump fails).
What do you think of the third diagram? I don't understand how hot water circulates into a rad, if the hot connections go down into the rad. But this how hot water feed is connected in smileypete's design, with the rads in between the pipes.
I should also mention that my diagram is inaccurate in that the hot feeds for the rads will not rise and then go down, but instead rise steadily to the rad inlet. This way hopefully each rad should thermosyphon, as in the solar diagram above?
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My understanding is that thermosyphoning happens via convection.
Random Google find: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378778810000502
Yes, but you can have convection without thermosyphoning right?
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But on my ex hire boat that is exactly what they did as do/did single pipe domestic central heating systems. It worked well. The pipe leaving the boiler at the back ran the full length of the boat just under the gunwale. it then dropped down to just above floor level and returned to the boiler. There were three radiators fitted with both feed and return from each in the lower pipe. This was a gravity system with no pump.
I think that the way this would work wold be through convection, rather than thermosyphoning, and I'm led to beleive thermosyphoning is more efficient, as the water is effectively pumping itself around the system.
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Am I right In thinking Rad 2 won't work because the cold outlet has to rise in order to get to the return pipe?
Would the siphoning effect work if the cold outlet is above the level of the cold inlet on the back boiler?
Lastly, would it be weird to mount a radiator like rad 1, though in the bedroom it would be on the wall. Would the heat distribute throughout the room much less efficiently than one mounted further down? LIke this:
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Thanks for the diagrams, I had seen them, but my problem as I mentioned is I can't put the rads between the main pipes, they're currently only about 20cm apart, and pass through numerous bulkheads. So I'm trying to plan a system where the rads either go below, or above the pipes. In all cases, the top of the rad will be above the hot (top) back boiler outlet.
Here's a re-drawn diagram.
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I have read the other back boiler posts, but I know most systems have their individual quirks, so wanted to post ours and get some feedback. Our system so far just has the 28mm loop with a substandard header tank arrangement, so I'm looking to upgrade with a couple of rads.
Spcifically there are a couple of things I wanted to check:
1. Do I need two pipes going to the header tank? If so, why? (header tank will be vented, and unpressurised)
2. I will have to place rads either above of below pipework, (can't really put them over the top?) will the rad below in the bedroom work?
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Thanks for the replies, I've actually found some multi stranded cable that is reasonably priced, so will probably go with that, had I gone with the earth wire then I would mark it using electrical tape at regular intervals so that it was clear which was positive and negative. I also plan to have a wiring diagram clearly placed in the engine room for my own, and any future owners use.
The choice of 16mm wire was purely down to voltage drop, this circuit will ONLY be for sockets and a few devices, (fridge, lights pumps are wired on separate circuits) but as I mentioned I have a powerful laptop that I would like to be able to use occasionally, (yes I know!) and If it was used at the far end, (most likely, as this is the seating area) then a 10 amp draw at 12v over 15m would mean a voltage drop of nearly 5% - to about 11.9V, and that's if nothing else is attached to the circuit.
It might seem stupid to size the circuit according to one device that won't be used all the time, but since it's only something I am going to do once I'd like to have that option.
I don't expect to draw 30a from the whole circuit at any one time, so will fuse it at 30a on the 12v distribution fuseboard, and yes, I will fuse each additional spur as well. As I will be using 6mm2 and 4mm2 for spurs their current carrying capacity will not be exceeded without blowing either the main 30a fuse or the spur fuse.
I beleive the maximum rated ATO fuse is 40a, so if someone did replace, that's the maximum.
as to the connections, I have found these open copper crimps http://www.amazon.co.uk/10Pcs-Open-Copper-Terminals-Wire/dp/B00R1IYCNK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1460738116&sr=8-2&keywords=open+copper+crimp+10 - which could be crimped to a stripped but unbroken wire, I then plan to use to heatshrink tape and/or self amalgamating rubber for insulation. If properly sized to the cable and well crimped, I would have thought this should made a good mechanical and electrical connection?
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Ok thanks for all the advice, I will try and source some stranded wire. It still seems theres no easy or straightforward way to wire multiple connections to the 16mm though.
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By terminal blocks do you mean chocolate block connectors? When getting the boat a couple of years ago the surveyor seemed particularly anti those, and I dont think they provide an ideal mechanical or electrical connection. Plus not sure I could get large enough ones for 16mm.I said earlier how I would do it if I had to do it with 16mm. The 4x 12v oulets that I inherited on this boat are wired in 6mm, daisy chained using 30amp terminal block one run down each side of the boat, voltage drop has not been a problem.
Personally I don't use 12v for high current items prefering to use 230v for that. I run my USB chargers, dongles etc from 12v but that's about it. My last boat had no 12v sockets at all.
As for choice of cable I use tri-rated which is overspeced for the job but is of a consistent standard unlike many "auto" cables.
I'd also like to avoid cutting the 16mm where possible.
At the risk of sounding facetious Should I be worried about vibration with copper gas piping, or indeed in my alternator?
Hopefully I can find multi strand at a good price, though (call me stubborn) I would be very surprised if the cable broke within the lifetime of the boat.
Has anyone experienced this happening with heavy gauge cable, which has been frequently secured (say every 10cm or so) throughout its length?
As I mentioned earlier, my boat was wired fairly extensively with solid strand wire, some of it poorly secured. None of it had broken, or even appeared brittle.
Some of the multi strand wire had, however turned black inside the insulation and become very brittle - almost dusty. Presumably due to moisture/oxygen getting under the insulation, which is what the better marine tinned cable should avoid.
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Q: Why is it a recommendation?
A: Because solid (or even 6 strand) cable isn't flexible and therefore will eventually suffer from vibration-induced fracture. That might take decades or it might take a month but it will (not might) happen.
Tony
The tinned copper wire you linked to above is great for the salty types (and superior to un-tinned in any situation) but that's not what folk are saying here. They're simply saying that boats should be wired with flexible cable just like cars are.
Ok, thanks. I checked and the wire is 7 strand, BS EN 50525-2-31 which I believe replaces BS6004.
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The OP is seems set on doing it "his way" with unsuitable cable and a dodgey connection methods.
Yet another rank amateur bodging boat electrics..........
Hmm. . .
I think there are a lot of people on here who like to throw regulations at a problem (often without referencing them) perhaps to prove they know better etc. . .
First of all, the cable type is a recommendation. There was a lot of solid strand cable in the boat already, and it got through a BSS, no problem. Does that mean the BSS inspector/surveyor is a "rank amateur" ?
Maybe we coukd have a constructive conversation about why the recommendation is in place?
From what I have read, and please correct me, the problem with solid strand wire is mainly due to stress fracturing, and I certainly would not use solid strand 1.5mm twin mains wire for 230v, due to this, even though plenty was fitted in my boat when it passed BSS, and i have subsequently replaced it.
I cant imagine 16mm fracturing under stress though.
But are there any other reasons is this recommendation is in place?
http://www.clevelandcable.com/products/658tq-marine-cable-offshore-cable-bs6883-ukooa-6mm300mm-p/
How many of you can honestly say your 30 year old boats are fully wired with bs6883 cable?
I'm not trying to say that just because other people flout regulations means that its ok, but lets have a constructive argument about why its a recommendation.
If people know why they shouldn't break rules, then they will more likely follow them.
As to the connection methods, whats so dodgy about them?
I will be running several sockets, and a couple of 12v applicances directly from this 16mm2 circuit, each socket is fused, and each appliance will be fused as well. I plan to use 6mm or 4mm cable for the spurs.
Max current draw from any one socket will be 10a (occasional use of powerful laptop)
The appliances will be a small tv/monitor, 12v stereo, and maybe a couple of 5v usb devices via a buck converter.
I'm not set on doing it "my way", otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with the post,
If you were to wire 16mm2 12v to "best practice" standards how would you do it? -
Can anybody point me towards the documentation?Agree ....sounds like BS6004 conduit cable. not recommended for marine use
16mm2 tri rate has 126 strands has 1.55mm insulation and an external diameter of 9.05mm
Is this a recommendation or a requirement for BSS
"marine" gets a lot more extreme than interior under gunwhale wiring on inland waterways.
The cable won't be going inside the engine room, 12v distribution is on engine room bulkhead in rear cabin.
Yes this is a rewire, its not a new boat.
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I think it has 6 strands, will have to check. But it would be hard to cut through one with a stanley knife.How many strands has it got?
Richard
I know i could probably have gotten away with using smaller cable, but using this method I would still have the same problem, unless the cable was small enough to solder, and in my experience getting larger cables hot enough to flow solder is impractical and melts insulation.
Maybe im just doing it wrong. . .
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I could google that for you if you want;
http://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/crimp-butt-splice-terminals/0119211/
Ok great, thabks. I guess that was obvious but for some reason didnt think the specs would be out there.
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These used to be commonly used in industrial installations on 3 phase circuits, normally in an insulated box http://www.cablecraft.co.uk/line-taps-for-branch-joints-10mm.html
Any good industrial electrical wholesalers should have them.
Steve
I like the look of these - would solve a few issues. If i fit them side by side - slightly offset, woukd there be space under a 6-7 cm gunwhale?
Only problem then would be insulating them.
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And yes, planning to fuse everything.
If anyone has a measurement for the inside diameter of a 25mm crimp thay would be super useful!
If anyone has a measurement for the inside diameter of a 25mm crimp thay would be super useful!
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Just missed the last few replies re. Crimp size - i havent been able to test but the wire i have has quite thin insulation, much thinner than the thick stuff that is usually found on multi strand cable of that size. The cable is actually a 50m drum of earth wire that i got a good price on.
I was hoping to fit over a 25mm crimp, but havent been able to test. I know that isnt ideal, but the hydraulic crimper does quite a good job of squishing. . .
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Thanks for all the replies, i think i will go with my method, the reason for using large wire, and wanting to t off as close to the socket/appliance as possible is just voltage drop/efficiency in a 60ft narrow where the living area is the opposite end to the batts.
The wiring will be concealed, but accessible under the gunwhales, so i will make sure to slide on extra crimps and heat shrink in case i need to add or alter.
The wire I have is the thick stranded type, this means i can easily remove the insulation with a craft knife without cutting through any of the strands.
If i were to use the spider method some of the legs would have to be pdetty long, which would negate the large wire in the first place, unless i replaced it with much larger cable.
The main worry i had is with the strength of the crimp, but i will be using 6mm2 for the tails so hopefully will be ok.
Is there such a thing as an "open" butt splice crimp that i coukd put on without havjng to silde it over the wire?
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Great, thanks for that information, my manual for the 1600 didnt include that, but i'll check for the connections later today.
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In the manual for my Victron phoenix multiplus inverter there is mention several times of a remote three way switch. I assume this would replicate what the switch on the front of the inverter does, on, off, or charger only.
Does anyone know if i can fit my own three way toggle switch, and how to wire it in - or whether it is only possible fo use one of victrons own and costly remote panels?
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In the manual I see a refernce to distance for smartbank, but how far can i mount the smartgauge from the batteries, with it still giving reliable readings?
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I am about to rewire my boats with 16mm2 cable that will feed a number of 12v sockets and a couple of wired in static/stationary 12v devices.
I plan to run one circuit and tee off smaller tails for the sockets, does anyone have any good suggestions as to how could crimp the cables together?
I don't want to have to cut the 16mm cable, so was thinking of getting butt crimps large enough to slide over the insulation, so that I can remove insulation in the places I want to put a socket, exposing enough wire to make a splice crimp.
I have a pair of hydraulic crimpers for this.
Does anyone have a better idea?
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Yeah, for those of us off grid and needing to equalise in the winter the 16.2 is useful because it's quicker. Running a generator for hours at 10a/h seems like such a waste so the shorter the better. For those of you on shore power, or using solar in the summer it's not such a big deal.
In terms of when to equalise:
"Trojan recommends equalizing every 30 days or when batteries have a low specific gravity reading after fully charging, below 1.235, or have a wide ranging specific gravity of >0.030 points between cells"
is the 16+ volts newer info and should I do it.
I contacted them this week.
Interestingly does anyone know why certain cells end up being less charged than others? manufacturing tolerances? unequal distribution of charge/discharge? uneven levels of electrolyte?
Connecting two skin tanks
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted
Thanks, just checking what you mean by fully vented? Do you mean in order to bleed them when re-filling? (both tanks have bleed points) otherwise, the coolant is vented at the engines' header tanks.