brich
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Posts posted by brich
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Thanks for the reply and the PM Alnwick. I'll certainly follow up.
I've talked to a trusted valuer today, he looked at a boat we were going to buy some years ago, and helped us out. Basically I think it's a case of tarting it up rather than renovating it from what he said.
Out comes the paint pot!
We are in the process of upgrading from a 34' narrowboat to somethng big enough to live aboard (50 - 55') so have looked at a lot of boats this year with a view to buying.
As a guideline, I woud consider that your boat would fetch between £20k and £25k if it is in good condition. This doesn't mean that everything has to be shiny and new, rather that it works as expected and looks like it has been looked after. (We came across a boat at a brokerage last week that was £10K less that our budget and about 10 years older that we were considering, but it was so well looked after and full of character that we were going to put an offer in on it - unfortunately someone else got there first!)
I'd recommend that you give it a good 'valet' inside and out, and fix all the obvious rattles and missing bits that you can. Don't spend any large sums of money on it, let the buyer decide what they want to do with it - your ideas are unlikely to be the same as theirs anyway. They will base their offer price on what they think it will cost them to 'fix' the boat to their satisfaction.
Put it onto Apollo Duck or Boats and Outboards and price it at (say) 5 percent over what you hope to get and see who comes to visit. Gives you some haggling room. You'll know if you're in the right price range depending on the number of enquiries and viewers that you get, and you'll get responses in days rather than in weeks. Do put a full description and plenty of photos on your advert.
Boats in this price range will probably take 1 - 2 months to sell in the present market IMHO.
HTH
Brian
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Anyone know anything about this boatbuilder? http://www.soutwestboatbuilders.co.uk
Just started advertising new build boats on Apollo Duck. The prices seem very low - e.g. a fully fitted 50 foot cruiser stern narrowboat for £35,000. Seems like they are building to a standard layouts (several choices) much like EastWest boats, but I think the boats must be being built here in the UK, possibly Totnes. Very new as they say I can visit their fabrication shop but don't have any completed boats yet.
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I'm sorry I asked about the alternator controller - didn't mean to stir up an argument!
Brian
I'm rapidly losing confidence in the whole idea of installing an alternator controller at all, as I might be buying the 'wrong one' or using it with the wrong batteries, or perhaps I'm merely being stupid enough not to understand which is 'best'. If the science of alternator controllers is good science, then surely there is a right and a wrong way to do it?
If we have to resort to e-mailing the manufacturers to support our position, then I'm just beginning to wonder if this is all about who produces the best snake oil and I'm going to get fleeced whichever one I choose.
I wonder if I fitted gas mantles, a gas fridge, gas water heating and get a soss stick I can chuck all this electrical rubbish out except for the starter battery ... then perhaps Vetus offer starting handles and I could get rid of the engine battery too. Now where did I leave that canal mag that talked about horse-drawn boats....?
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As regards the alternator controller it depends on what voltage your alternator charges at. Modern ones run at a higher voltage than the older ones and in that case the external controller will do nothing or next to nothing.
How do you determine the charging voltage - from the manufacturers spec sheets or do you need to measure it directly under some specific conditions? Also, do you need to be aware of the type of batteries you have when choosing a controller (e.g. open vs sealed lead acid batteries)?
Thanks
Brian
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Sorry to be pedantic but, just for future reference, a device of 19W power isn't 19W per hour........ it's just 19W. The ENERGY used over an hour is 19 watt.hours (19WH).
Chris
Sorry, I copied the detail of the RoadPro website spec where it said the average hourly consumption was 19W (1.6A at 12V) and forgot to put the H afterwards.
I'm sorry I asked about the alternator controller - didn't mean to stir up an argument!
Brian
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A 2KW inverter may also be slightly marginal to run a 1500W washing machine. It may not allow the motor to start up when the heater is also on. A 3KW inverter would solve that problem.
Your 700W microwave will consume about 1400W of power when it is ON. The 700W figure is only the microwave power but microwave ovens are only around 50% efficient in terms of the power they draw from the 240v supply.
Here's a rough power audit: (ignoring the washing machine for the moment)
2 TV's for 4 hours each and 40W each = 320WH per day (WH = watt.hours)
Microwave for say 15 minutes per day @ 1400W = 350Wh per day
Fridge @ 120W @ 50% duty cycle for 24 hours = 1440WH per day
Total WH's = 2110 WH. We'll divide this by 10v rather than 12v to allow for the inefficiencies of the inverter. This gives 211AH (Ampere.Hours) per day which is about double what a "typical" narrow boater would use. It's a very high consumption.
You would need about 600AH of batteries to cope with this for one day. This is because you mustn't discharge below 50% to avoid damaging the batteries and are unlikely to have the time to charge above 80%, so only 30% of the battery is accessible. Thus, 211/0.3 is approximately 600AH.
The other problem is that you need to replace almost 50% more than you take out owing to battery physics charging inefficiencies. So you will need DAILY to replace around 300AH. This will take about 15 hours!!!!! See why this is not going to work. It's usually always the recharging that is the problem.
We have also not taken into account the washing machine yet nor indeed pumps and lighting. The pumps will add around 5AH per day and the lights around 20-30AH per day. Although the alternator will be supplying current all the time you are cruising, it will be mainly used by the fridge because TV will be in the evening or early morning and likewise the microwave. So the alternator will keep the fridge going during the day but will not add much to the depleted batteries from the night before.
In my opinion, this is not a workable solution. You need to get a 50W fridge and consider dumping the microwave. This would cut your daily consumption by about 100AH per day - a huge amount of saving.
Chris
Thanks Chris and Gibbo - you've confirmed my thoughts that this was not really workable. So for Plan B...
A 1500W pure sine inverter - perhaps one that autoswitches betweeen shore and inverted power automatically
Two TVs as before - 320 Wh per day
I'll dump the microwave - not a problem.
I'll dump the domestic fridge freezer and replace with something like the 12V INDEL fridge from Roadpro (rated at 19W per hour, lets say 500 Wh per day) unless I should be looking for a small mains fridge? http://tinyurl.com/q9h9hq
To replace the Candy I'll get a Thompson X-11-1 twintub which is rated at 350W wash-motor and 165W spin motor, and hot filled from the calorfier or Morco gas heater. I'm told that these are simple 'traditional' washing machines. 30 minutes washing and 5 minutes spin is 175Wh plus 14Wh, say 200Wh: http://tinyurl.com/qdbjx3
That gives a budget of about 1000 Wh which is about 100Ah - this would almost be within the capacity of the existing batteries. Does this sound right?
I think I should still fit the extra engine battery, and extra 110Ah leisure battery and the alternator controller.
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That's a very good question, I can't find anything relating to what type of socket it is...
I'll keep looking though...
Might not be necessary:
The Boaters Phone Company provide stick-on velcro aerial connections I believe (http://www.boatersphone.co.uk/adapters.htm#usb_adapters) - no socket required
or you can get a long USB lead and attach your USB modem to the outside TV aerial in a sealed plastic box
HTH
Brian
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I've found a nice 50' narrowboat which I'm considering purchasing.
It seems to have been used mainly as a live-aboard, spending almost all of it's life (about 12 years) moored up and attched to shore power to run a couple of TVs (at 40W each) , a Microwave at 700W, a small Candy Washing machine about 1500W and a slimline fridge freezer, say 120W. The 12V circuits are completely separate. The engine is a Vetus 3 with a standard 12V 75A alternator. It has two 110Ah batteries which appear to be used to provide power for both leisure and engine start (a bit unusual but probably soluble). I'm intending to cruise rather than moor, so most of the time we would be without shore power.
I'm thinking about installing a 2Kw pure sine inverter, with the idea of being able to run the fridge freezer all the time, the TV and Microwave on demand, and the washing machine occasionally (when there are no flat stones about) with the engine running so that the alternator assists when needed. However, I think I need to add some more batteries into the system - I was thinking 4 x 110Ah and a separate 80Ah or similar for engine start. But now I'm not sure that the 75A alternator will be enough to keep this battery load topped up, even if I drop in a battery management system.
Can anybody suggest if this set-up is likely to work, or suggest what might be feasible?
Thanks
Brian
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Our narrowboat is a 35' 1970 build steel hull with GRP roof. The previous owner had lined out the roof by sticking approx 8mm polystyrene tiles or sheet to the roof and sides. These sheets have deteriorated over time and I want to replace them, preferably with something that is relatively easy to apply, and won't produce large quantities of toxic fumes in a fire. I've contemplated fixing wood battens to the roof and adding a lining of 6mm faced ply, but this is expensive, will take a lot of time to plan and fit, and may add additional stress to what is an aging plastic material which I can't at the moment afford to replace with steel.
I've come across Thermilate paint -, http://www.thermilate.com - which claims to have thermal insulating properties which reduce heat transfer by approx 10% for two coats and 15% for three coats. At £25 per 2.5 litre tin, I reckon I could easily get three coats onto the GRP roof and sides for the price of 4 tins and a bit of DIY preparation and application, which sounds like a bargain if you compare it with relining with ply, or applying Thinsulate fibre cloth, or messing around with sprayfoam.
My question is does Thermilate do what it says on the tin? Lots of claims for it, but I can't find anything obviously independent to say yes or no, nor any 'professional' application sheets or instructions.
Does anyone have experience of this paint, or can they point to any independent reviews to say how good or bad it is?
Thanks
Brian
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<snip> I have the deposit on my ditch crawler </snip>
<snip> So i'm left no other choice (and don't suggest patience, i am about to embark on my dream!) </snip>
Boats can't be rushed, and I don't think they take kindly to being termed a "ditch crawler".
Call it by it's name and it will come when it is ready.
Brian
NB Otter
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If you have a rod around the internet you might find the accepted "standards" that are used for specifying fridges. You measured your consumption with it empty. Filling it up will reduce this. The "standards" also specify the ventilation requirements, ambient temperature, how many times the door is open etc. They are *supposed* to duplicate real life use. It's debatable whether they do.
Why the plate says 68W and you measurements show 85W is anyone's guess. There are several possibilities, inaccurate meter, faulty (or tired) fridge, a meter that assumes 240 volts when in actual fact you have a lower voltage (compressor motors draw *more* current as the voltage falls believe it or not). Sevral other possibilities.
Having said that, an error of 20%ish on power measurements from a cheap meter isn't actually all that bad. It's a *very* difficult measurement to make accurately. The one I use at work cost several thousand pounds to get an accurancy of 2%
Gibbo
That sounds like the motor run capacitor (if it has one) is faulty. The power factor should be closer to 0.85
Gibbo
This was a brand new fridge, purchased less than two weeks ago, so I think I have a right to expect that it should work in a way that the specification claims. How is the average member of the public going to check this out? If we are saying that it is difficult to measure power to 20% of the actual without expensive industrial equipment, then why do we allow a point value rather than a range for the input power when both input voltage and frequency are stated as a range - viz 220/240V and 50/60Hz?
The thing that alarms me is that it seems we can't rely on the information provided by the manufacturer about the fridge as a guideline for it's power consumption, Is all this plating, labeling and CE standards just a load of junk?
Brian
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Re the power measurement differences, the plate of the fridge says 68W. Your power measuring device is probably measuring KVA not Watts. The difference is due to the Power Factor of the fridge.
No, the meter is measuring watts. It also has a VA setting. I've just checked it again and it is presently showing 92W or 193VA. The power factor is 0.48.
I'm just astonished at the significant difference between the plated values and actual measurements. These don't seem like manufacturing tolerances to me.
The neutral AND the earth of your inverter should be bonded together and bonded to the hull. In addition, you would be wise, from a safety viewpoint, to install an RCD and a circuit breaker on the mains output. You can buy a combined miniature circuit breaker (MCB) and RCD as one single switch unit known as an RCBO. This saves space.If you already have a shore ring circuit on the boat you will (should) already have an RCD and MCB. The best way then is to buy a multipole AC switch (Sterling et al) so that you can switch the mains input from shore to the inverter output.
Chris
Otter has never had mains power on board before, and I don't plan to install a shore ring circuit. I just need the minimum required to connect the inverter safely to the fridge, so it looks like an RCBO.
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I need some advice on running a 240V AC fridge from an inverter (like is it possible...)
I've picked up a small tabletop fridge from B&Q for £49 which - if I can get it powered up and running - may well be just the thing to replace the Halfords coolbox with the broken catch which had previously replaced the non-flued gas fridge... OK, so NB Otter was built in 1970 and is getting a bit long in the tooth, but in no way short on pleasure!
The fridge is a compressor fridge, plated as 68W at 240V, and is B rated, with an annual consumption of 186KW, or about 0.5KWH per 24 hours. As you might expect, practical measurement shows something a little different - my 'green' power measuring plug gives an actual running power of 85W and a power consumption of about 1.3KWH per 24 hours to keep it running (empty) at +5 degrees C according to my fridge thermometer. Interesting to see just how different the ratings and actuals are!
Two questions - I've tried my 300W soft start 12V inverter (Nikkei - cheap and of Asian manufacture) and as anticipated it won't start the fridge - lots of bleeps and error lights but no action. I have heard it suggested that I need an inverter with about 4 times the running power to start the fridge motor, so I'm thinking about a 600W unit. Is this likely to be enough? Do I need to look at a Quasi-sine or sine inverter for this application? Is one of the cheap unregulated units OK, as I assume that bother output voltage and frequency vary under load on these.
Secondly, if I can get the inverter to start the compressor, how should I wire up the system on the 240V side? The fridge is obviously metal cased and almost certainly gets it's CE safety marking on the basis it is connected to a PME domestic mains protected by circuit breakers. Should I earth the casing of the inverter to the boat (battery negative is connected to the hull) or should I put an RCD on the inverter 240V output. or neither of these?
Any suggestions welcomed
Thanks
Brian
NB Otter
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Im not familur with the exact models, but if its not a ballenced flue model, i think it would be acceptable to cut back the outer pipe where it passed thought the roof, or simply use the existing single skin flu pipe.
But dont quote me on that!
Daniel
Sorry - I did!
OK, so this is what I've done...
I've fixed the Morco so the OUTER tube (110mm x 350mm long) remains inside the roof and butted up against it.
The inner tube (95mm x 400mm long) protrudes through the roof so it will engage with the flue terminal. Unfortunately it won't engage with the existing flue which had an argument with the bridge under the road as you enter the basin at Kingswood junction... so I think a new one is required, a job for next week.
I have ""Silicon Nailed" a rectangle of Aquapanel against the roof to keep any rising heat away from the FRP. I'm also planning to wrap some exhaust pipe insulation material arounf the inner tube where it passes through the roof, just to give the FRP a chance.
I'm still disappointed that Morco don't provide more detailed guideleines for retrofitting their units. Even some baics about ALL the items that are needed would be helpful.
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Sorry Brian
For giving misleading information I stand corrected
Chris
I have to admit that I thought this must be a balanced flue device becuase of the concentric flue - just coudn't work out how the air got into the heater, or how it would work using the old Palomar stack - that's why I asked. Thanks for the input.
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The way it was explained to me is that one pipe is the inlet and the other is the outlet i.e air in fumes out
so both would need fitting and sealing as you wouldn't want exhaust fumes inside your boat. sorry if that all sounds a bit basic but that is the extent of my limited knowlege I am sure someone will give you more detailed info from this great font of boating experience.
Chris
Thanks Chris, that was actually my feeling, that if they gave you a double concentric flue there was a purpose to it, although I have been offered advice to the contrary from a chandlers. I had assumed that one would need a different flue structure on the roof but they said the old Palomar flue (single 95mm outlet) would be OK.
Surely there must be some simple guidelines for this, it can't really be such a black art!
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Last winter our Paloma finally expired so we have decided to replace it with a Morco D61E LPG water heater.
NB Otter (35 years old) has an FRP roof - this appears to be a composite about 15mm think with fibregass inside and out and some sort of insulating material between.
The Paloma heater had a 95mm flue pipe which exited through the roof to a stack mounted on the roof. The Morco D61E uses a double flue pipe with 110mm outer and 95mm inner. Do I need to expand the hole in the roof to accomodate the 110mm outer of the flue pipe, or is it satisfactory to butt this against the roof and feed only the inner tube through the existing hole without resizing it.
Should I fit some kind of heat protection on the inside of the roof to prevent heat damage to the roof and if so what?
Also, should I seal around the flue pipe where it goes through the roof, and what is recommended for this?
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I'm using an 11" Francis light and - (there's been a thread on this subject before come to think of it, might be worth searching) - it works well, but you have to adjust the focus to widen the beam otherwise it creates the problem mentioned by Allan. In all honesty it could probably do with being a bit wider still to really illuminate the tunnel roof and wall, but nevertheless it looks 'legend' as my son would say and is often a topic of conversation with passing boaters - 'where did you get that?' rather than 'dip your headlights'!
The idea of a 'dipped' headlight for tunel use seems quite appealing. Would a 'standard' left hand drive car headlamp provide the right beam pattern for tunnel use ('ahead' and 'oncoming traffic') or do we need something specifically for tunnel use?
Brian Rich
NB Otter
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Our walls upto the (high) gunnel are carpeted in beige beaded stuff.
Dainel
Is this some kind of waterproof carpeting, perhaps like you use in bathrooms?
Is this stuck directly to the steel?
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I have managed to get hold of some minibus/car/coach lining upholstery, sort of like the roof ling in your car. Its soft to touch, a very light grey colour maluable and easy to stick on.
Sounds interesting - where can you get this and what do you use to stick it on with?
Thanks
Brian Rich
NB Otter
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I'm contemplating an internal refit of NB Otter, which has a steel hull with a FRP roof. I'm planning to strip out the existing internal cladding which appears to be formica with glass wool behind it on the steel hull, and hardboard with polystyrene foam (yuk) behind it on the roof. The panels are screwed to existing battens which I assume are stuck to the hull or roof. Otter is 35 years old so I am aiming for a realistic rather than gold taps approach.
I am considering thin faced marine ply 3mm(?) as a lining material, which will be screwed or pinned to new wooden battens which are glued using No More Nails (or similar) to the hull and the roof, with a thin roof insulation behind the lining for insulation.
Assuming this is a reasonable approach, can anyone advise on what wood to use for the battens, what glue to use on the steel and FRP, what is a good insulating material and how to pre-treat the wood before using it.
Or point me at some good reading material?
Thanks in advance
Brian Rich
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My boat is 9 yrs old, has a Beta 1903 engine, but has no fuel filter fitted between the tank and the engine, there's no drain tap on the tank either. Can anybody suggest a method / device I could use to syphon arround the bottom of the tank to find out exactly how much water, if any, is in there? I don't fancy the traditional mouth full of diesel method!
If you have reasonable access to the tank via the filler or by removing (temporarily) some of the breather components, you could use an extractor pump like the PELA 6000 to suck out what is right at the bottom of your diesel tank. The Pela comes with a flexible tube intended to go down the dipstick tube on your engine to extract the oil, but it is useful for several other things like getting the last few litres out of the bilge, or just sucking round obscure corners.
If you put a small amount of red diesel in the receiver before you start sucking the fuel tank out and making sure that the suction pipe is on the bottom of the fuel tank, it should become apparent if there is any significant amount of water in the tank, as it will quickly show up as two separate layers in the receiver. If this is significant, you probably need to drain the tank completely using the PELA, (I went to my local home-brew shop and got af plastic 25 litre barrel which I could later empty into the oil sump at my local tip). Once the tank is more or less drained, dose it with Fuelset or something similar and also contemplate fitting an agglomerator in the fuel line if you haven't already got one.
If you only find a small amount of water, then a double dose of Fuelset (or something similar) should ensure that this gets through the engine and - they claim - causes no damage. Said to also fix any bigs that are in the fuel.
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We find the windlass that seems to cause the least wear and tear on us to be:
Two hole, one tapered, one straight.
Having a tubular handle that rotates, so your hand and the windlass handle stay in the same place, rather than sliding past each other which seems to strip the skin off your hands after a while.
Gentlemen like a short crank (which may be contrary to popular opinion) and ladies like a long crank (which probably isn't) but you have to decide if you are talking about winch handles or not...
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Does anyone know whether there is a solvent that can remove the glue that seems to stick cheap masking tape permanently if you leave it too long?
Been repainting Otter over the last three weeks, and the weather hasn't accelerated the process one bit... so the masking tape has decided to make a permanent bond.
Moral - don't buy your masking tape from an office supplies company.
Brian
Floating Homes history
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted
We've recently purchased NB Hermione, a 21 year old 50' cruiser stern narrowboat whose builder is unknown. We're told - based on her design and build - she might have been built by Floating Homes, who I think are no longer trading. Anyone know if any records of boats they built are available?
Thanks
Brian