Tony Dunkley
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Posts posted by Tony Dunkley
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I may be completely wrong here but I am sure our SLs had a light "idle" spring inside the stronger main control spring and the idle stop adjusted this spring teension. If your SR has a similar setup is that light spring in place? Tony, Biz?
Yes, there were many additions and variations to the governor linkage and speed controls on the Lister ranges, and not only from type to type, but between the 1, 2, 3 and 4 cylinder variants in the same range.
I can recall one memorable afternoon of fun some years ago changing the pumps on an SR4 in a small skid-steer loader which had been run with the fuel filters by-passed because they were constantly blocking up !! The engine was sandwiched tightly in between the bucket arms and rams and everything had to be done at full arm stretch through a mirror.
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.... ..... ..... The steel mount is heavy engineering style, and does not budge at all, the gearbox fits like a hand in a medical glove.
The central shaft also has been carefully balanced with a small plate welded on one side.
A fabricated steel structure which doesn't flex or move to some degree under applied load has yet to be made, and being statically or dynamically balanced won't prevent run-out on a rotating shaft and coupling assembly, or guarantee that the engine flywheel is in perfect axial and angular alignment with the gearbox input shaft.
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Those two photo's may be exhibiting a possible cause for the knackered driveplate.
Unless the gearbox is in perfect angular and axial alignment with the tailshaft, and/or the plummer block doesn't permit even the slightest [fore and aft] axial movement in the tailshaft, the end thrust on that intermediate shaft [with the Hooke joints on each end] when in gear will be exerting a mis-aligning force on the free-standing gearbox.
If the gearbox mounting is sufficiently rigid to prevent even the slightest sideways displacement of the box, then there's no problem, but in practice, even the most substantial and strong looking pieces of steel fabrication will flex to a surprising degree when put under load.
It would also be well worthwhile to check the half coupling that carries the driveplate for run-out.
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Never was over keen on it, but the Technodrive box on our Vetus has started doing strange things. It (twindisk TMC60 mechanical box) normally goes into forward with a hefty clunk. These last two or three days it has been jumping in and out of forward two or three times when engaged, though reverse is perfect. After an hour when things have warmed up, it is fine again. It sounds no different than normal and drives the boat along just fine. I have checked the oil, which was slightly overfilled (musn't have had my readers on when I last changed it), so I changed it for good measure (ATF as per spec.)
I checked the prop and it is clear and happy, free to rotate etc. It is a standard type single lever remote, which seems to be doing what it should.
Can anybody think of things I might need to check/adjust etc?
If it does snuff it, I will be getting a PRM hydraulic box.
Many thanks.
ps coming up to 4000 hrs and over 12 years old.
Try operating it [from cold] with the control cable disconnected, and see if it still does the same thing.
As far as I know they're very similar to the PRM mechanical boxes with cone clutches, and there's no adjustments that can be made to the box itself to take up wear.
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I think this just helps to reinforce that you should investigate unusual noises as soon as they appear.
A friends boat had an unusual rattle that appeared only when in gear and moving at about 3mph (so not a convenient time to lift deck boards) until about a week ago when the engine pitch suddenly changed and smoke / steam came through the boards.
the unusual rattle was the engine mounts letting go, and the smoke / steam was the stern gland being cooked as the engine went out of line (BMC), apparently bmc's are quite impressive when they are not being held down at all.
it was bodged to get them back home to the north oxford canal from the thames in london (I didn't ask how) but now with new engine mounts they have horrific vibration (in time with the prop) and a stern gland that smokes so we suspect they have bent the prop shaft.
it comes out of the water next week to go over everything
Unless the boat is being docked for any other reason it would be well worth disconnecting the tailshaft at the half coupling and checking for run-out on that and the gearbox half coupling before doing so.
Some makes of gearbox can suffer bent output shafts or distorted output half couplings, and some types of flexible/resilient couplings can be permanently distorted following major engine mounting failures.
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I'm kind of surprised that gate lines don't seem to be in use to open the bottom gates whilst running downhill.
I kind of remember this practice as almost universal.
Mind you it looks like the line on the mast of the butty is in use for something else. Possibly as a washing line, although there is no washing.
There is a line on the motor's topmast [ it hasn't been used at that lock, . . it's laying across the middle beam], but if you look at how far the motor's counter is out, it wouldn't hold back well enough to pull both gates open, so whoever was off the boats on the lockside would be opening the butty's gate and getting back on as the boats came out of the lock.
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Interesting to see the woman steering the motor and the man the butty.
Frequently done with empty two-handed pairs South of the Cowroast, and elsewhere on the Junction where you wouldn't single-out empty boats.
In fact, nobody's steering the butty because they running abreast, and they'll stay abreast all the way to Cowley Lock where they'll single out for the Cowley Pound.
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.I do have access to pullers/sledgehammers etc and the like tommorow.
Not sure I have the time to remove the gearbox . . . . . . . . .
I wouldn't go near it with a puller, or anything else with the intention of disturbing the half coupling fit on the shaft. If it's tight on the shaft and doesn't want to move, then it's best left that way.
If you did manage to move it along the shaft towards the engine flywheel, it's not likely to get you anywhere because, if the half coupling has been fitted as it should be, there probably won't be enough room between the end of the shaft and the gearbox splines to withdraw and re-fit the drive plate anyway.
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The first of the three photo's of the empty Willow Wren's at Croxley isn't the same pair that's in the second and third photo's, . . . the motor in the first photo looks like a 'Northwich', so it's almost certainly either 'Mallard' or 'Warbler'.
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Well, not now anyway. It would have been able to slide once upon a time
Richard
Not necessarily, . . . the half coupling may be, and really should be, a shrunk-on interference fit.
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Having an unusual free day, I have had a good day in the engine bay, refurbished alternator back in (with a momentous fight), engine serviced and other jobs. Kathy and I are both off on holiday next week for a long cruise so everything needed to be checked (That round Tuit list was brushed off.)
I thought I would try to find the source of an unusual scraping noise which is still there - (I thought it was the alternator fault which has been there several months)
I finally stuck my head far enough down below the brass flywheel housing to see something rattling round where it shouldnt be.
Off with the housing to reveal the back of the drive plate spinning freely on the gear box splines - has been doing it for a while looking at the groove.
two springs left in the remains of the plate and 3 others in the engine bilge (one missing) . there were also two rivets which I presume held the back plate to the rest of the plate.
I have managed to source a new drive plate from ASAP for £58 next day delivery.
My problem is getting the drive plate out - I havnt seen this set up before and was wondering if anyone can advise
The flywheel is to the left in the top picture and the drive plate sits inside the metal flange centre of picture which itself sits on the shaft. There was an allen-keyed grub screw on one side(now removed) but on the other, there is a hole which does not go all the was down to the shaft., looking along the metal flange from the flywheel end, there is an indent, and the shaft also has a channel.....in line with the hole.
no movement of the flange along the shaft is possible...........
You'll have to either move the gearbox back a few inches [sterngear, thrust bearings etc permitting] , or lift the gearbox out of the way.
The 'channel' in the shaft is a keyway for a feather [straight] key, and the grub screw is to prevent movement of the key in the event of it becoming loose.
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Hi Tony, iv set the govnor up per what the manual has said, iv re timed the engine its had the pumps and injectors overhuald. Ever scince its never idled right. The engine has had new cylinder heads piston rings, crankshaft bearings etc.
What was the reason for having to reset the governor, . . . have you fitted new governor weight springs or speeder spring, and is the engine a factory produced variable speed model with an external speed control lever and adjustable stops, or was it made as a fixed speed engine with the [now variable] speed now being controlled by means of the speeder spring rod where it sticks out of the timing case ?
It's well worth re-checking the pump racks, as Bizz suggests, for anything that may interfere with their free movement, and whilst doing that also make sure that oil feed piping to the valve gear hasn't been bent slightly out of shape and is fouling where it passes close to the pump rack linkage.
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Thanks. No possibility of using a socket here due to the water pump setup. I'd be happier standing on the thing if I could get a socket on it. As it is, I haven't quite gone as far as standing on it, but I wasn't far off. Just felt wrong with the stilsons. I realise a crankshaft ought to be able to handle a fair bit of torque, but I guess I'm just looking for reassurance that I'm not going to break anything if I go to town on it! Can't afford to have my engine out of action (or to replace a crankshaft,if I'm honest!)
Edit: I locked the crankshaft by getting a friend to jam a tooth on the flywheel. Held steady, no problem.
At the risk of asking the obvious, . . . . you have removed the setscrew from the locking plate modification [photo in Post #1] that someone has made to the crank pulley bolt, . . . . haven't you ?
Don't be afraid of getting brutal with it if necessary. If you can manage to bust the crank in the process of getting the pulley bolt undone, then it would have been on the verge of failure anyway !
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Would the engine run if timing is one shim or two out tho, smoke is minimal starts up straight away etc, but is ticking over way to fast but when looking at rack its virtually all the way shut?? And when pulling the stop over it barley moves rack mms for it to stop engine. All linkage moves freely first thing I checked, Tony.
Injection timing won't have any significant, or even perceptible effect on idling speed, and there isn't much travel on the pump racks from idling off load to the stop position, . . . that's quite normal.
Have you disturbed, or made any adjustments to, the governor arm fulcrum in the timing case, or the external adjustments to the speeder spring and speed control stops ?
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Right, iv set the gov up on my lister st 2, but its still ticking over way to quick when you go to turn engine off the rack is almost fully back as well I mean its mm. But if you open it up and control it on gov by hand it ticks over lovley this is with the morse disconected. You then stop engine and re start and back to square one again. Any ideas and sometimes has a habbit of running away too. Both pump marks are spot on with the sides of the housing so im baffled know.could retarding fuel pump timing move the rack to a diffrent position
Despite whatever you have done with the governor, linkage and injector pumps, there can only be either something preventing the pump racks from operating freely, and / or the governor, and it's linkage, isn't correctly set-up and adjusted.
The scribed marks [on the pump racks] that line up with the sides of the pump bodies are nothing to do with pump timing.
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Hi Tony: ST2 rather than SR2. The "good shove" was needed to get the engine to start. The cable fastens to a lever very close to where the throttle cable connects to the engine - towards the front, left hand side below where the air comes out of the engine. The lever is a right angle crank that rotates clockwise to stop the engine.
While I have flat batteries at the moment, the difficulty in starting the engine is likely to have contributed to this if it isn't charging.
Do you fancy a bit of spannering while you're getting some juice back into the batteries ?
If you do, then unfasten the air-ducting from the engine and get it out of the way. Then take off the pump cover sideplate, . . . it's the upper one of the two sideplates [ the lower one is the crankcase door and gives access to the crank and big-ends] , and the bottom lefthand corner of it is slightly above and to the right of the lever we've just been talking about.
Behind this cover plate [held in place by six cheese-head screws] you'll see both the injector pumps, . . . check [with the end of your finger] that the pump control racks are free to move horizontally in both directions when the stop lever is in the start/run postion.
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Since this arrangement was fitted I've sometimes had the feeling the engine was struggling to start because it was being starved of fuel. The sound was "dry" for want of a better description, and similar to failing to push the knob back. Yesterday when it wouldn't start I went to the engine end of this cable and operated the lever on the engine a couple of times. Then when I tried the engine started, but more importantly as it tried it was burning fuel.
There was no visible difference, the entire arrangement appeared to have returned home before I fiddled and looked no different after, but it clearly made a difference. My guess is something I can't see has a bit of play in it?
From memory [ another topic and posts] I think you've got an SR2, . . . yes ?
You're on the right track re. fuel starvation, and it's going to be something preventing the injector pump racks from operating freely and returning to the start/run position.
Is this 'lever' an extension lever attached to the small 'butterfly' control [near to the bottom corner of the air ducting] that rotates clockwise to stop the engine, and was the 'good shove' needed when stopping, prior to starting, or when checking when it wouldn't start ?
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Hopefully someone is reading this...
Picked her up from Fenny Compton - last trip from Whittington went well, four days good running with a repaied engine courtesy of RLWP, save for needing a new starter battery
This trip slighty reluctant to start at Fenny Compton, and yesterday afternoon wouldn't start. Two seperate problems
1- the ignition key was dead, by passed by using a screwdriver on the starter solenoid terminals
2 - the mechanical engine stop needed a damn good shove
Today it's just not turning fast enough to start, even with the decompressors off,
Is this boat cursed?
River and Canal Rescure can't come for 24 hours (I'm not a member)
1st Ade (my brother) has made a few suggestions, including pondering whether it's flat batteries or something stopping the engine turning, although it should be added that it ran okay yesterday.
Thoughts, and thanks for ideas!
Patrick
Can you elaborate on problem 2) a bit more ? There's a good possibility that it's linked to the reluctant starting.
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. . . . . . leaking gasket also means you get oil/fuel in the cooling water - you see gungy scum on the dipstick and radiator cap and floating on the cooling water
This form of head gasket failure is comparatively rare, and only occurs if the gasket has failed between the oil feed to the valve gear and a water passage, or if there's a severe enough blow to reduce compression to the point where the affected cylinder virtually ceases to fire at all and unburned fuel get forced into the water jackets.
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Will remember that one.
I think I have seen reasonably priced kits on Ebay that detect combustion products in coolant?
We've got a Combustion Leakage Detector. It fits into the filler neck and passes air from the small space above the coolant inside the Heat Exchanger/Header tank/expansion tank through a coloured liquid which changes colour in the presence of carbon dioxide.
Testing customer's engines with it creates a good impression and gives the appearance of being technically 'up with the times', but truth to tell, I've never yet detected any head or head gasket troubles with it, that I hadn't already diagnosed by watching the coolant surface in the filler neck and sniffing it for exhaust fumes.
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Today I refilled coolant/water and tentatively ran the engine. It took a little while to start with some white smoke that went pretty quickly (clean filters?).
It sounded a little faster than usual and I am nervous to run it for too long in case of overheating.
You do need to establish whether or not the engine is going to overheat again, and a good way for you to start diagnosing what, if anything, is wrong in the cylinder head area, would be to check the coolant level and then warm the engine up to normal running temperature with the pressure cap off.
Whilst it's warming up, adjust the engine revs to minimize the vibration which will be disturbing the surface of the water in the filler neck of the header tank, and watch what's happening to the water, and the level.
Small bubbles and/or a trace of fumes/exhaust smell in the filler neck of the header tank are indicative of cylinder head or head gasket problems.
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . There are 10 pages of this stuff, with only the last 2 paragraphs concerning the actual case management.
Shouldn't they be very firmly slapped down by the Master next Thursday for this blatant time-wasting ? The question of you being permitted to assist Leigh and speak on his behalf got fairly extensive coverage on 23 March last, and I would have thought that this second bite at something that's already been ruled on won't be well received by the Court.
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What I find puzzling [the import will be made clear to me next week I daresay] is their choice of posts to exhibit.
From last December: - http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=76499&page=20#entry1712925
And from last May: - http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=76499&page=23#entry1825130
Does anyone have any ideas on why these in particular are so objectionable?
Far too factual, truthful and revealing for either C&RT's 'in house' or 'in pocket' lawyers to be comfortable with, . . . to raise this at a Directions Hearing, particularly as, effectively, the same gripe was disposed of in March, is one of the best examples of clutching at straws I've ever seen.
The MNC and PRN arguments won't be aired in Court in Nottingham until 17 October, which is when the Directions hearing for C&RT's Claim against me has now been listed for, and I'm sure they will try anything they can, however futile it ultimately proves to be, to bring about the longest possible delay before they're heard in London either.
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Well, looks as though CaRT will be trying yet again, next week, to cut his support out from under Leigh. Our own dear debbifiggi [Hi!] has been emailing some of my contributions on here to Jackie Lewis; Steven Holder and Shoosmiths et al, since at least last December. That is excellent of course; I always post with the understanding that they should have the benefit of keeping track of the debates and criticisms over the legalities of their actions and arguments.
However, it appears obvious that they feel there is something wrong with my discussing the case in this way, because they are exhibiting a couple of my posts in a second witness statement from Shoosmiths, doubtless intending to demonstrate my unsuitability to help Leigh out as he has asked. You would think that they would be glad to be kept appraised of their opposition’s thinking [i would love to be privy to similar correspondence from them], but evidently not; keeping me out of the court room takes precedence over everything else.
I see this as little more than another clear indication of just how desperate and fearful C&RT and their legal thugs have become.
They achieved a sort of minor victory back in March when they succeeded in having the Statement of Case sidelined pro tem, and now, possibly in light of just how weak their Defence is, they are indulging in fairly blatant time-wasting by going back over much the same ground again with old information upon which they chose to remain silent at the time.
If they had anything resembling sound and effective arguments to put to the Court, then they wouldn't be resorting to this sort of piffling nonsense. Let's hope that the Master takes a similar view next week, . . . . I think there's a very real prospect that he will.
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Lister st2 fuel pump timing and idle
in Lister
Posted
The mirror was primarily for admiring myself as I worked, . . . . the main difficulty was that various bits of the machine structure were in the way and I couldn't position it on my 'best side'.