CaneyJ
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Posts posted by CaneyJ
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I bought my LEC fridge almost brand new second hand for £35. The thermostat was £8 on eBay.
New they are £100 as are most basic domestic freezers.
Alternatively, buy a Waeco B40 hybrid chest freezer and run it on its mains compresser rather than its crap 12v mode peltier with the same mods I've done so you don't lose all your cold air when opening.
2nd hand B40 hybrid fridges also go on ebay for cheap.
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Google MH1210A. They come in 2 versions. One requires a 220V AC supply and there is the one I use that uses a 12V DC supply. Both switch a 10-Amp rated source which can be either AC or DC voltage.
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I’ve got an unmodified domestic mains freezer running as a fridge using an external temperature controller [which is easy to setup] to consume just 12-13AH per day including the Inverter and factoring inefficiencies.
Compared to my current Waeco CF-50, it uses around half its power in a day. Here’s how.
I took a LEC 32L counter-top freezer with thicker wall insulation than its fridge counterpart and hooked it up to a digital temperature control relay with a 10-Amp switch rating that runs off a separate 12v supply.
The temperature controller can cut the mains feed to the freezer via an inline AC socket and plug which goes between the Inverter’s output and the freezers AC cord.
It was setup to cut the delivered AC to the freezer every time the thermal probe [slipped through the door seal on a thin wire] dropped back to 4°C.
Observations showed it switched on the AC power feed when the temperature reached a steady 6°C.
The freezer would run for about 5 mins only around once per hour and cut the compressor at 4°C before the temperature bottomed-out at around 3°C.
I plan to combine this freezer with a TBS Powersine PS600-12 Inverter which has a standby mode that only draws 0.4W when there is a zero-watt power demand [therefor using only 1AH in 24 hours!].
Initial power consumption results using the converted freezer on a mains watt-meter
When running; the freezer’s compressor draws around 52-watts average [with a 659W max peak].
Over 24-hours it consumed only 0.123KwH!
This worked out that the converted freezer was on only 10% of the time or around 5 - 6 mins for every hour.
This was with the freezer [now acting fridge] half-full of food, pre-run down to temperature before readings began, the door never being opened and within a 21° environment all day
The quoted yearly consumption on the standard LEC freezer is 146KwH per year. As a converted fridge with the external thermostat set to 4°C it now only uses 45KwH in a year!
As a comparison on efficiency; I hooked up the watt-meter to our old and large Hotpoint fridge / freezer combi at home and reported a daily draw of around 1.4KwH over 24 hours or 511KwH in a year.
The mains watt-meter must also be factored-in as that itself had a constant power draw of 2 Watts.
I also measured the 12V power consumption of the digital control relay [which was running off a separate 12V power supply] separately using a multi-meter and found it drew around 0.1 Amps or 1-watt constantly.
When you also factor-in the 0.4-Watt hourly draw of the inverter in its standby mode I could count the 0.123KwH reading as including both the temperature relay controller and the Inverter by subtracting the watt-meter’s 2-watt constant consumption.
This means the total setup on a warm day uses around 11AH in 24 Horus!
Even when factoring in that the Inverter might only be 80% efficient when running, that is still a total battery consumption of no more than 12-13AH in a day. Suck-it 12V fridges.
Making the setup even more efficient using a simpler [& cheaper] inverter using a 2nd heavy-duty [high-amp] relay and an optional bypass switch or a third [remote-controlled] relay.
Instead of using an expensive Inverter with a low-standby current like the TBS [or a Victron Phoenix 800]; another method I’ve thought of is using the digital temperature controller to instead switch on & off another high-amp relay connected in-line to the Inverter’s DC power input cable instead of the fridges AC power.
This means that instead of the inverter being on all the time with its parasitic standby current, the temperature controller can send a command to the heavy-duty relay to switch on the inverter on-demand.
All this would leave is the focus on getting something that is reasonably efficient at its DC-AC conversion but without the worry that it has a high standby current .
Something like a cheaper Sterling 800W Quasi Inverter or a Chinese Pure-Sine Inverter that is rated to at least 700W+ for around £120 should do the job here for much less than a 12V fridge.
As a final bonus to this setup; a 12V remote control activated bypass relay could be fitted between the temperature controllers 12V switched input and the heavy-duty relays switched input to allow the inverter to be switched on independently of the temperature controllers demand so it can be briefly used for other short-term uses such as running a small twin-tub washing machine, a travel Iron or hair straighteners.
It would have to be brief use items as eventually the inverter will have to go back on fridge duty.
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Found something that almost looks professional and will fit across a roof width-ways. Not as good value as the mat but probably more durable and still only about the same price as a cheap 100W solar panel. Can be laid flat and also be daisy-chained!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400947286493?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
or for ultimate simplicity there is this self-contained plastic dome with spiraled garden hose inside and standard hose connections so less pipework and plumbing involved. Just connect a small low-flowing submersible pond pump in the sink and extend the return hose back down!
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Since getting solar panels; in summer I’ve found I don’t need to run my engine often for power except when moving to new spots.
My issue is that I don’t have an instant gas water heater so my main hot water source either comes from the engine’s heat-exchanger inside a small calorifier tank, a kettle on the hob or pans on the multi-fuel in winter.
In summer I also sometimes break out a portable rocket stove and boil up a large pan of water whilst operating my generator on the towpath.
I then decant this into a couple of 5-Litre pump dispensing vacuum flasks for 24-hour storage for on-demand use later-on such as sponge-baths, washing-up or to quickly re-boil on the hob saving gas.
However; recently with the good weather, I’ve thought of another idea of getting hot water relatively frugally and that is using solar to provide the hot water as well as my electricity.
It’s been proved they work well on houses but it seems over-complicated and expensive installing a similar system on a boat but perhaps my idea is only suitable since my hot-water demands are low since I take sponge-baths due to taking most showers at my local gym.
The first idea was simply using 1 or 2 black PVC solar shower bags placed on the roof in the morning and heating during the day whilst at work.
In the evening [if the day was sunny] in theory you should come back to having 20-30 Litres of hot water heated for free which can then be used straight away or stored in the 5L insulated flasks mentioned before.
I then thought about keeping the spout on the shower bag and running it through the window in front of my kitchen sink to run hot water from the roof via gravity to supply the galley.
I did some further digging and found this pool heating mat on amazon:
Being just over a meter square I realised that with a couple of 32mm silicone reducing elbows going to some rubber radiator hose passing through the kitchen window into the sink I could make something even better for not much extra cost over the shower bag idea.
I’d could circulate the water with some sort of low-flow central-heating pump sat on the draining board drawing from the sink as a reservoir or maybe try a 12V submersible pump.
Worth trying out?
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I run my 12V TV and aerial booster energy free, separate from the boats battery systems via a 28-Amp lithium battery pack. It will easily last the weekend and the joy is you can run it fully flat without worrying and take it to the office next day to charge back up whilst working. Good if you are hunting for amps in the winter and can also keep a small laptop and mobile phone going as it can output 19V and USB too.
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I use seperates with an emphasis on a proper domestic spin dryer like a white knight or indesit that can go to the very high rpms.
I have a gravity drain indesit for simplicity as I can just drain into a washing up bowl and tip it down the sink.
Your inverter needs to handle the 1000watt initial surge though as that's what they put on the system when starting up but drying clothes quickly is always more important to me especially when its wet outside but too warm to light the stove.
Since I use separates, they can also be stacked saving floor space. I've had no issue long term with my agitator bucket style washer like the top example and smaller 3kg loads means I can separate them out into categories. Though small, they can do everything apart from a duvet or large jumper but they tend to use more water than automatics.
I've now switched to doing the washing manually in a pressurised spun vessel called a presawash which uses much less water to do 2kg loads at a time in a few mins before I empty it down the sink.
Look up twin-tubs around the 3.5kg category otherwise. Especially ones with both pumped drains. Then you can just put by your sink as most bucket washers are gravity hose drained which can be awkward on a sink drainer and I've also found to be an issue in a boats pumped shower tray as they can be drowned in their own waste water if the shower drain pump can't keep up with the runoff.
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Bought one from this listing here in China http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291131834015?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT.
Fitted it recently to my boat replacing an old 55W Halogen car foglight and tested it and it's an exceptional unit and the right money. Doesn't look bright but trust me at night it's blinding.
Square one here even more powerful if you want one with a more angled style. Seen these ones fitted on the back of tow-trucks. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1PC-4-5-Inch-3600LM-48W-Tractor-Offroad-LED-Work-Light-Spot-Light-Square-12V-24V-/251624199732?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a95f89634
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I use a couple of these http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004VW0Y1S/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00GSS21JQ&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1KKDKSXJG6RGYAE8YYS6 to suspend my bread & bagels above my old gas hobs directly and they are very quick.
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Interesting idea but I think the transient start-up current will still be massive even on 24v and will probably fry an electronic 12v - 24v converter.
1) A local 12v battery by the fridge charged by the too-small fridge supply wires. They'll be plenty big enough to charge a local battery.
Looking at the Danfoss compressor graphs shows that even the more powerful compressor peaks at 18-Amps. The 10-Amp Victron Orion spreadsheet states the 12-24V unit can handle a 20-Amp peak so I’d like the think it can handle the start-up.
I’ve been able to run the compressor fridge ok so far from an old Waeco 12V, 5-Amp mains power supply from a peltier cool-box so the peak start-up can’t be too aggressive or the power supply would surely have tripped-out.
However; I like your proposal of installing a trickle-charged buffer-battery beside the fridge. Is there any major downside to this though? I’ve not heard of this solution before.
I have space for one by the fridge under the front bunk and have an old spare 110AH battery to test with but would this cause an imbalance with my battery bank and charge volts? I have a couple of parallel 88AH leisure batteries at the back of the boat currently though I’m upgrading them this year to a couple of 6V 240AH tractions in series.
I charge the whole system off a CTEK 25A mains charger and a small Victron 15A MPPT Solar charger. During charging; would the battery at the front of the boat draw too much power on the small cables or would it only draw a gradual current? I suppose it doesn't matter as the front socket currently has a 10A fuse anyway and so should save the wires if the surge is too much.
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Hi; I've got a Waeco CF-50 12/24V Fridge but I cannot run it from the boats front 5-Amp round-pin socket due to the internal wall cabling being of inadequate size. I don't want to suffer inverter losses running a mains fridge and want to stick with the DC option.
I have access to the cabling at each end with the rear being linked to a fused 12V switch panel. I can upgrade each end with 6mm² cabling with a beefier Anderson plug connecting the front to the fridge and bypassing the thin cabled switch panel and link directly to the batteries via a Mega-fuse.
However; I don't fancy stripping back all the panels to replace the thinner wiring in-between.
At the moment; the volts drop when the compressor starts to the point of stalling the motor and shutting off the fridge. The thinner internal wall cabling has to run about 3-4 meters.
I know that using higher volts will result in less losses and means I can hopefully get away with the thinner wall wiring so I'm considering buying a Victron Orion 12V-24V 10-Amp rated DC-DC Booster and connecting it to the 6mm² battery cables with the output going to the thin fridge cables before they go into the rear wall.
The Victron will take the engine's wide-range 12V input and convert it to an adjustable output of between 20-30V which I'll set to around 26V which the fridge should still be good with when idle and not drawing a big load.
Is this a wise idea or do DC fridges still suffer high-amp surges when their compressor starts like mains fridges do? Would it cause a 10-Amp 12V-24V [240W] converter to trip and maybe go for the more powerful 20-Amp version?
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I have one of these and it has very good suction with a mechanically driven brush to pick up the loose bits and an extendible hose to pick up the ash around and under the stove. Will run no problem from a 7-800w cheap modified inverter.
Electrolux WorkZone Z61A Stair & Car Cylinder Vacuum Cleaner https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000ND6ZM6/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_Qy8zub0RA60W1
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I have one of these metal cranked "presawashes" and they only need 2 mins of turning but its good to leave them with hot water pressurised for 5 to ten mins before cranking to pre-soak and stains need pretreatment. They use far less water than a twin tub and even a modern washer but people are snobby about doing things manually. Need a spin dryer though that's a must and an inverter than can handle the high startup surge of it. Also ditch the handle, put on a pair of oven gloves to protect hands from the heat of the metal body and turn the drum itself, much easier I find.
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you need one of these bizzard.
Used to have one. Crap.
And you still need to find the water to rinse.
I have a white Presawash like the version above and wouldn't say it's crap.
So long as you pair it with a [200-300W rated] spin-dryer and a 600 watt[ish] Inverter that can handle a 1000 - 1200 watt start-up load I've found it's fine.
I can process a personal weeks worth of laundry including rinse water using just 36 litres [8 gal] of water doing 3x separate loads at 2.5kg of per load.
You just have to remember to use a low amount of liquid laundry soap compared to a full size washing machine like a third of a cap to only need minimal rinsing and to also pre-treat and scrub stains and soak for 15 mins prior to cranking.
I use something called Ecover which is more natural and less harmful I feel when I'm emptying down the sink into the cut.
I first fill it with 3-litres of boiling water and 3 litres of cold. Then stuff in the stain treated clothes before soaking for 15-mins whilst pressurised. Then crank for 2-mins and empty and leave up-turned in the sink to drain for a couple more mins.
Then I fill it with 4-litres of fresh, cold rinse water and some conditioner and crank again for 30 sec and dump out.
The secret to low-effort rinsing is have the spin dryer do it for you. Once done with the first rinse in the Presawash I stick them in the spin dryer for 2-min before stopping it to add a 2-litre jug of cold water back into the drum of semi-spun dry clothes and spin again fully for 5 mins to semi-dry and fling out the last soap.
I can have 7.5kg of laundry done and on the line or in front of the fire within an hour having used much less leccy and water than either a fully blown washing machine or twin tub.
Smaller separate loads are also convenient for controlling things like hot water cottons, bedding and jeans as well as separate loads for colours and whites.
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I thought the only real difference with the red camping mate kipors is that they have no eco throttle which might just save a little noise and 20% less fuel. They are still pure sine and capable of running a 50a charger. 60a might be borderline.
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The boats batteries can be selected using a rotary switch which allows the alternator to charge one or the other, both or cut the 12V system entirely. There is a master Isolation switch as well in the engine bay but I think that just cuts the initial flow from the alternator before it gets beyond but I'll take a closer look; I'm a bit fuzzy on this area of initial boat electrics.
The inverter itself is on the wall just inside the rear door and I'd guess that apart from the rotary switch just below it, there is a 2 metre cable run to the batteries on 35mm cables.
When the rotary is on setting 2 [leisure bank] most of the time, I know the inverter input terminals are live as the multimeter gives a reading but the inverter itself is off anyway as it has it's own on-board power switch.
I felt that when not using it, I could use the cables another way using additional ringed wires coming off the posts. In the same fashion I thought that the rotary switch could direct the solar regulators charge flow from the inverter posts back to either the engine or leisure bank depending on top-up needs.
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I do my laundry with a similar system but realised the a twin tub washer used a lot of water. Having no space or power capability for a automatic machine, I found a better solution both in terms of power saving and energy use. I have a manual cranked washing machined called a "presawash" [example here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-80s-Bamix-Presawash-Switzerland-Laundry-Washing-mashine-Caravan-Camping-/141189013437?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item20df855fbd#ht_701wt_1162] Also known as a wonder wash. It uses about 6 litres of water to initially wash 2-3 kgs of laundry in a 2 min crank cycle plus a further 3 litres for the first rinse.
I also have a standalone Indesit spin dryer which consumes 200 watts when running with a 1000 watt peak when spinning up so is good on a 500 watt inverter. I believe the stand alone 2800rpm spin dryers are a lot better than the ones built into the plastic twin tubs. I add another 2 litres of water before I spin the clothes to act a second wash cycle and can get all my laundry [3x 2kg loads] turned around in 1-2 hours using about 35 litres of water including rinse.
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Hi
I've got a higher end laptop where the need will be arising to charge it when on the move.
For background info; the boat itself has a 12V, 176AH [upgrading to 264AH later] leisure battery bank charged off a 60-Amp alternator onto a generic 1000 Watt modified inverter [upgrading later to a Sterling Quasi 1800 Watt unit].
Though I could charge the laptop from the Inverter, feel it would be wasteful going from DC to AC, then back to DC.
The laptop itself already comes with a 19V external power supply brick rated at 180 watts which I guess gives about 87%ish conversion efficiency.
Despite it's max rating, using a watt meter has shown the laptop at it's absolute maximum stress only draws 145 watts from the wall.
On lesser use with browsing & youtube it only draws about 45 watts when fully charged or double that when charging at the same time so shouldn't suck my batteries dry with the engine off.
To avoid the unnecessary use of the Inverter, I've been looking into DC-DC regulators / converters and was after peoples experience with them.
Initially I've only found one from Maplins which claims to be rated at 150Watts output [selector on 19V claims to deliver 8A] but I am sceptical as it only comes with a cigarette plug input which would most likely fry beyond 90 Watts and the body shows no signs of heat dissipation.
Digging further, I came across this wide range input [9-19V] heatsinked version on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251375457679?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_3711wt_1162 and was wondering if this is a solution?
Given it's claimed 90% efficiency, it shouldn't overload as the wattage should be a little less drawn in equivalent amps than the current laptop brick.
The bare ended wires will also allow soldering on a barrel jack of my choice and it can be mounted next to the inverter taking it's power directly from the inverter input terminals.
Would this source be a problem? My assumption was that taking the high amp draw from the thickest cables would minimise any voltage loss.
I also noticed similar 12V wide-input regulators here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-Power-Converter-Wide-Range-Regulator-8V-40V-to-12V-6A-70W-/300950050478?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item46120556ae#ht_3221wt_1162 of a similar design.
I figure I can just rewire the ends on to a standard cigarette socket & plug to act as a pass-through in the final stage of my 12V system. My reasoning is I can then run more voltage sensitive stuff like standard domestic TV's [with external 12V bricks, bypassing them entirely] directly off my 14V alternator. Are there many here who regulate their DC?
On another note, I'm also looking at mounting a small victron 15A MPPT solar regulator next to the inverter and was wondering if I can attach the regulator output wires onto the inverter input terminals as well to allow charge flow down the thicker cabling direct to the batteries and avoid extra wiring.
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I do mine using a hand cranked pressurized barrel called a presawash for a couple of mins and then spin the clothes practically dry in an Indesit spin dryer which uses about 200 watts of juice for 4 mins pausing half way through to add a jug of rinse water and re-spin it out. I then hang the clothes on an airer in the shower or out on deck and they are bone dry in a couple of hours. In winter I currently use a Meaco dd8l dehumidifier to help them along and likewise are dry in a double of hours with minimal space and power used. The presawash stacks on top of the spin dryer when not in use. I can do pretty much most things apart from duvets and pillows and use about 35 litres of water in total to process 3x 2kg wet loads of laundry.
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Running an AC fridge efficiently
in Boat Equipment
Posted
Well here's shorelines option
http://www.shoreline-marine.co.uk/freezers/chest-freezers/mini-chest-freezer-cf35
Basically taken my LEC freezer , flipped it on its back and fitted a danfoss. That'll be £565!
I'll stick with my £200 freezer and inverter combo.