Tony1

Please tell me you don't weigh your feces Alan. Wales must be going downhill if that's how people spend their evenings. Why not just date a sheep like the other lads?

EDIT: PLEASE IGNORE THIS POST- THERE IS ALREADY A THREAD ON THE TOPIC OF AIR QUALITY!! I'M LEAVING IT HERE TO AVOID POTENTIAL CONFUSION) May I ask your opinion on a semi-related matter (related in the sense that it may impact London boaters)? The London mayor apparently guested on LBC very recently, and a caller complained about the very poor air quality around London's canals, caused by the large number of boats burning solid fuels and running diesel engines. I've no idea how bad things actually are- and if they are bad, where the hot spots are. And its possible that this was just a person who loves to complain. But the worrying thing for me personally was that Sadiq's response seemed to be quite strongly worded. IIRC he agreed with the caller, saying he was aware of this problem. He also spoke of already being at work with the relevant canal authorities and others to improve the situation (this is not verbatim). The thing is, there has been legislation in the last few years to improve solid fuel stoves, although there is no serious enforcement of that on boats, and as far as I know, it only applies to new installations anyway. A lot depends on whether the London authorities and CRT try to impose some drastic requirements (or make other changes) in an attempt to solve this perceived problem. I feel that banning solid fuel stoves in London would make it quite expensive to live on boats there, at least without electric hookup. Gas heaters would work, but heating using bottled gas can be quite expensive through the really cold months. But would CRT/the mayor have the power to ban SF stoves on boats, if they concluded that it was the only way to properly address the issue of air quality near to the canals?

The question might be more suefully posed to one of our experts, rather than to me. I haven't seen enough examples to have much of a clue how most modern boats are set up, so I cant comment sensibly on that. Hence why I asked the question. But I can say that mine is a budget fitout, and when I saw an A2B charger in there (which cost around £500 bought brand new), I assumed that the fitout people would never spend that kind of money on the charging system without a good reason. So I assumed that direct charging from an alternator to a lead acid battery wasn't as good as using an A2B, in some way or other. Hence my asking the question.

And probably the second water too. Shocking that they ever let me captain a vessel on His Majesty's canals of the realm.

Alas, my dear fellow, nothing could be further from the truth. I am nothing more than a charlatan sir. A scoundrel of the worst sort- and what's worse, a self-confessed slubberdegullion. The sooner they hoik my miserable carcass off the waterways and into a luxury motorhome, the happier everyone will be. Let's see if the French will put up with my nonsense, by God.

I would never doubt your wisdom for a moment sir, but if I might don my canal investigator hat for just a moment, I would pose this question: why is it that my original domestic alternator was regulated to 13.9v, and the new one (installed in December) is also regulated to 13.9v? For it to happen once could be a mistake. Twice smacks of carelessness. Or perhaps there is foul play afoot? I'm just asking the questions.

Apologies Tony, I didnt do enough detailed testing of the original A2B setup to know how the voltage changed as the charging progressed. What I can say is that when charging my lithium batteries via the B2B system, I can monitor the voltage on the input of each B2B. And that voltage doesnt change very much, until the batteries start getting over 80%, and then the current starts dropping a bit, and the voltage starts to creep up. I'm terrible at explaining electrics - I dont even understand half of the terminology- but I can say that for most of the charging cycle (regardless of how many hours it takes), both alternators seem to work at their normal voltages (and current outputs). Why did they never teach me boat electrics in school, instead of literature? I dont need big words these days, I just need to know what on earth I do with a 50mm sq battery charging cable. The one thing we must avoid at all costs is going on a popular internet forum and saying anything about how boat prices might fall. Its like the stock market innit? An ignorant pleb like me makes a worried posts on a forum, and 20,000 narrowboats are up for sale the next day. Actually, if I'm being honest I dont think CRT will succeed in making any drastic changes to the rules, as Allan and others have explained there are major hurdles and delays in the way. So the commission is unlikely to have a majori effect on prices. I'll probably sell anyway this year, but I'm just paranoid. Everyone else will be fine, honest. We're definitely not doomed. To paraphrase Roosevelt, the only thing we have to fear is the fishermen.

Funny you should say that Mr M, I think salty sailing is probably the best/purest form of boating, for me personally anyway. It will be one of those things that will forever remain on my bucket list, as I just dont see myself being able to afford to buy and maintain a fully ocean-capable sailing vessel in the UK. Everything costs thousands to replace, and not replacing stuff (or having something fail on you) might leave you stranded on the rocks one night, in very bad weather. And the amount of knowledge you have to have in order to captain a sailing vessel around the UK coasts is just ridiculous. I'd have no time left to watch youtube. I suspect ocean sailing is one of those things that is better to try out once or twice on someone else's boat, rather than spend £50k on your own boat and run it aground the following week, as I probably would.

It does make me wonder how a professional boat builder/installer could have knowingly used two alternators running at different voltages, linking them together to an A2B charger, and thus effectively wasting one of them almost completely. And this I think was a standard build configuration, so there'll be a good few boats out there using alternators at different voltages through an A2B charger, and having a very similar issue to my original setup. Did they never bother to put a clamp-meter around the two alternator output cables even once- on any of their boats- to check that both alternators were actually doing some work? Even a moron like me knows to do that! But sorry, yes- even before I got the boat I had also been pondering doing some travelling in a motorhome, at least for a few years, and I didnt want to leave it until I was too old/infirm to be allowed to drive (or safe to drive). My slight worry is that if I dont try it in the next few years, some medical issue may befall me, and prevent me from ever trying it. I had been thinking of maybe selling the boat in about 3 or 4 years from now, but the CRT commission has spurred me into acting sooner, because of my concern that when I come to sell my boat, the prices will have dropped significantly due to thousands of London boaters selling boats at the same time as me. The issue is that the boat sale would have to largely fund the campervan purchase. I do have a house currently being rented, but any sale of that would take many months- and it might be wiser to retain the property anyway as it wont depreciate like boats and motorhomes will. So if boat prices really drop in 2 years because of lots of boats being sold, I'll only be able to afford a quite old and perhaps rather questionable vehicle. But if I sell this year or early next year, I could probably afford a much nicer motorhome, and do some European trips before the cost of medical/travel insurance gets too high. And here's my cunning idea- if boat prices really do fall majorly in 2 or 3 years time, then I'll be able to buy myself a half-decent boat at much less money. Or perhaps sell the house, and have a boat for the summer and a motorhome for the winter. Now that I've tried living on the waterways I really dont want to give it up, at least not forever, so I'll definitely move back to into a boat at some time. I think in the longer term, when I lose some degree of fitness and mobility, I might consider living on the Norfolk Broads, as there are no locks, only thousands of mad and drunk holidaymakers to contend with every summer. Problem is I hear @peterboat is heading that way, and that will really lower the tone of the place.

Thanks very much Alan. It is important to know that no harm will come to the lead acid batteries if I was to cruise for 8 hours, with the engine running and alternators charging at a steady voltage for the whole time. I guess when they got full, the lead acids would just push back and resist being charged? The thing is that the original system was crap anyway, with the domestic alternator hardly doing any charging. So taking out the A2B and wiring the two alternators separately would improve things and get the charging done faster, and it probably would not warrant a full reassessment of the electrical systems, as has been discussed in other threads.. I might look into advertising it as a private sale when I'm in the London area, as there seems to be a lot of demand down there, and higher prices are achieved.

Tony, might I pick your brains about something? A broker recently advised me that I might be best to reinstall lead acid batteries when I come to sell the boat. I dont want to get into the argument about whether that is right or wrong, at the moment. Lets just assume that the broker was correct, and that it has to be done. So if I put in lead acid batteries, then I'll need a way of charging them. I have B2B chargers, but they might also count as a significant change to the boats original electrical system, so I might have to get rid of them too. So lets assume I have to get three brand new lead acids. Next I will need a way to charge them. Now, originally my boat had a Sterling A2B charger as I've said, but is an A2B charger really needed for lead acids? These chargers cost over £500, and even used examples are expensive. I think I recall some folks here not having A2B chargers, but just using their alternator to charge directly. So could I do the same? Would lead acid batteries suffer damage or deterioration if just connect the alternator directly to them, with no A2B charger to manage the charging? As usual, there is a slight complication: My starter alternator seems to charge at 14.3v, and my domestic alternator charges at about 13.9v. When both alternators were connected together to the A2B charger, the one with the lower voltage would seldom get excited enough to put out any more than a few amps, whereas the one working at higher voltage was always doing more than its fair share. This was the result of them operating at different voltages. Both alternators were replaced with new units in December, but the new units also operate at different voltages, so I would still have that issue to address if I went back to using lead acid batteries. I must say that replicating my original system by connecting both alternator outputs together (whether into an A2B charger or not) seems to be a very inefficient way of charging, since it effectively wastes most of the charging potential of the domestic alternator (the one that runs at lower voltage and never gets excited). So if I can connect the alternators directly to the lead acids, a follow up question is: can I keep the alternator outputs separate? Ie connect the starter alternator to the starter battery, and the domestic alternator to the domestic battery bank?

My boat used to have a Sterling A2B charger, and it didnt have a lithium profile. In fact, unless recent models have changed, I dont think the Sterling units are designed to work with lithiums. In my first attempt to install the lithiums, I adjusted the bulk charging voltage of the A2B down to 13.9v, and I connected the lithiums directly to the A2B charger. The A2B charger seemed to do very little to limit the current output. It allowed the lithiums to charge at almost 100 amps, and the alternator quickly rose to well over 100 degrees. With the lead acids the alternator used to throttle back its current output quite soon, as the lead acids started to resist the charging. But lithiums there is no real resistance, so the A2B was not a safe charging option , in my experience. With that said, I am far from being an expert - but I would advise you not to spend any money on an A2B charger until one of our experts has confirmed it can be done safely. They are also quite expensive at around £500 or more. The annoying thing is that I gave my A2B charger away to a boater who was skint and needed one, and it now turns out that if I want to sell my boat at certain brokerages, I will have to undo my lithium install and return the charging system to its original state. And that means I might need to buy some lead acid batteries and an A2B charger. Very annoying.

I will confess I had my doubts about the idea, thinking that the second B2B would be getting switched off and on every ten minutes as the alternator heated up then cooled down - but I should have bowed to your great wisdom! You cant trust a Morlock not to cannibalise you, but you can trust them to install a B2B. ETA - with victron B2Bs you can set a delay after the engine start, before the B2B switches on. So you might not need the manual switch. I used to set my second B2B to come on 5 minutes after the engine start (detected by the voltage rise I think). But I switch it on and off manually nowadays.

I'm no expert, but I'm certain that a lead acid battery will always be needed in a B2B setup. Its extra complexity, but you can use one of your old lead acid house batteries as I did to save a few quid. They dont have to be in stellar condition, I think.

Apologies as I haven't read all the posts, but I do exactly what you are suggesting - I use a B2B to charge lithiums from a 100 amp canaline alternator. First thing to note is that the alternator will get too hot if it puts out too much current, so you'll damage it over time, assuming you dont burn it out very quickly. So with an eye on stopping it overheating, I have two charging modes: 1. When cruising and the revs are close to tickover for longish periods (eg at locks), the alternator has less internal cooling effect, so I found I could only take maybe 35 smps from it continuously 2. When moored and doing a static engine charge, I rev up to about 1300rpm. At that speed the alternator could put out almost 50 amps and still not get too hot (although it was still over 90 degrees, whereas its normal operating temp used to be 55 degrees.) I use a victron 30 amp B2B for charging mode 1, and for charging mode 2, I switch on an additional 18 amp B2B. But victron now sell a 50 amp B2B that allows you to alter the current output from zero to 50, to within 0.1 amps. So I would suggest that you should get a victron B2B, and you can monitor your alternator temp at different levels of current output using an infrared thermometer, and you can see how hot it gets in various conditions and at different rpm speeds. This will allow you to find the exact current level your alternator can safely put out, and you can leave the B2B set at that level. And you have the option to increase the current output when doing a static engine charge, as I do. All that said, my figures and testing were based on my old canaline alternator, which died around xmas (possibly partly due to me working it too hard?). When the new one was fitted (same model), I noticed it seemed capable of putting out more current than the old one, without overheating. So the age and condition of your alternator might also be a factor in how it performs. @Jen-in-Wellies also devised a clever system with two B2Bs like mine, but in her case they are both left on by default, and if/when the alternator goes above 90 degrees, the relay sends a 12v signal to the second B2B that switches it off. To me, that seems like a good idea anyway as a safety measure in any B2B setup, because seasonal temps can vary wildly and in high summer, its possible my alternators were getting hotter than I realised.

I would bet that if CRT ever did hand over enforcement to a squad of thugs masquerading as a security company, we would eventually see fines for some of those things. My guess is that it would start with penalties for overstaying on 2 day moorings, water points etc. It could be very easily monitored by a few cheap CCTV cameras, including one placed to record boat ID numbers - or at least enough detail to identify the boat and the crew beyond any reasonable doubt. I turned up four times to use a booked mooring in the basin at Ellesmere Port museum, and on three occasions there were boats moored on the water point. But on two of those occasions, the culprits were gleaming trad-style boats, who thought they could ignore the rules. So its not just the 'usual suspects' with old scruffy boats who behave badly, as I think some people imagine. I'm all for clamping down on rude behaviour, and mooring on waterpoints really winds me up - but bear in mind, there are probably very few of us who haven't at some point broken one of the rules.

On a related note, since I'm heading south anyway and am pondering selling the boat in a year or so, does anyone have any recent knowledge or experience of boat prices in London, compared to the rest of civilisation? When I asked them to to take a look, the Whilton chap thought it best to put my boat up for around 50k. Which seems fair enough, as I paid about that much for it in June 2020, just before the prices went silly. But if there are dozens of boat-hungry folks in London who might be seriously interested in a quick sale, I'm wondering if I ought to advertise it privately on the duck (or perhaps on a local facebook group), and maybe I could save myself the cost and the hassle of a broker sale, and bag an extra few thousand into the bargain. Its not worth going into the details of age, price, spec or whatever (well not yet), because we'll just get into the weeds and sidetrack the thread. But I am very interested in the more general point of whether boats tend to sell for more money if they are physically situated in London? Hopefully with some (recent) real life experiences or examples.

As a CCer myself, I was initially concerned at the thought that the commission's likely recommendations would lead to a mass sell-off of used boats, at around the time I was considering selling mine. But I think some of the more extreme thoughts and suggestions are not very likely to happen at all. NB Allan's post (many pages above, somewhere) suggested that the CRT commission is effectively their second recent attempt to change the rules, after their initial proposals were rejected (I think he said by the DoT?). IIRC, he felt that any rule changes proposed by the commission were likely to be watered down versions of their original proposals to the DoT. To the 'low-movement' CCers, and in fact to anyone planning to sell a boat in a couple of years time, that will be reassuring news. But the key question remains to be answered - will CRT still seek to make 'static' CCing impossible via rule changes? Its possible they may seek the same end result, but will use more subtle means to achieve it. I've no idea what that would look like, although some sort of London mooring surcharge seems likely, as well as an increase in the minimum cruising range each year (although that is easy to get around, as already discussed). Perhaps the static CCers in London who earn higher wages will be able to stay, and the lower earners will be forced out? But that said, using mooring surcharges to drive out some of the static boats seems a very unpredictable approach, and if they get their predictions wrong, they could lose all the boats, or hardly any. There is an element of throwing the baby out but being left with the bath full of water, in that the boaters who are unemployed and on housing benefit will be given enough to pay any feasible increase in mooring charges, whereas the boaters who are working (but in low paid jobs) will probably be forced out (depending on the amount of surcharge that is demanded). So a increased proportion of the static boaters left in London will be the unemployed folks, which I would guess is not an outcome that CRT will be strongly in favour of. Its an absolute minefield of unwanted potential consequences.