Tony1

I'm not ready to go widebeam, not for a few years I think... But I can live with rubbish solar yield for maybe 3 months of the year. I've seen some boats that were almost covered in panels, and I bet in in winter they can get by with very little engine/genny running, but I'm not attracted to the idea of hanging panels down the side of the boat. I'm not going down the route of chasing a couple of extra kWh as the top priority, or storing food outdoors to save energy. Well not unless I have to! Thanks for that, a really good summary. I dont have an Alde, but I could potentially use the Eberspacher to create hot water, with just one rad left on... I'll give that another trial run. Mine is a 4kw unit, not the normal 5kw, and when all the rads are in use, the water doesnt usually get above 35 degrees or so, even after a hour's running. But even with only one rad on, the snag with using the Eber is that I'd using at least 0.5L of diesel to heat the water, as well as using 0.5L of petrol to run the genny, right? So no real fuel savings, although it would certainly work to get water up to washing temp. For me, after hearing all of the ideas and advice so far, I think maybe the first tipping point issue might be the hot water that you get as a 'free' by product of running the engine. I tend to alternate how I use it, meaning that on one day I'll use the hot water to wash myself or my lustrous locks, and on the next day I'll use it to wash a couple of items of clothing - so its seldom wasted and it comes in really handy. One counter to that approach (and in support of a genny) is that I can also get free hot water from the SF stove. If the tank water is not hot, I often heat up the odd pan of water on the stove as needed for dishwashing etc. But they are pans, and I know this sounds wimpish, but I dont really fancy the idea of washing myself in water from a pan that was recently used to cook soup. I could buy a dedicated large pot just to heat washing water on the stove, in fact I might do that anyway as a contingency thing. So the genny could work, I could live with the hassle of fetching petrol etc, and I could get my hot water for washing from the stove. But the final snag is that my mains charger only gives a max of 30 amps, and so I would need to add a second charger (at about £150) to charge fast enough that I could replace a day's charge in about 2 hours. I've realised I might also have a couple of other expenses on the horizon, not sure yet- and so at the moment I'm becoming more inclined to reluctantly let the Honda go, and reconsider buying a genny (plus a charger, jerrycans, chain, padlock, etc) next autumn. Its something I think is a good idea even if it involves extra hassle, but maybe not right now. Thanks for the heads up Brian, I'll check that out.

I couldn't agree more, and especially from a liveaboard perspective. Fitting my extra set of panels was the best thing I've done on the boat, in tandem with the lithium batteries. They are a match made in Heaven! I have seen some liveaboards with quite small panels, but in fairness they are usually the type who prefer to cruise every other day, so they do lots of engine charging. For some boaters, I think 1000watts is good, as it offers solar hot water in summer, and plenty of energy for other things. But for year-round liveaboards, or those doing extended winter cruises, I would get as many panels as you can fit. Your 2.1kw is very impressive, I must say. Usually its me that does the solar bragging, but I wont be doing it if I ever meet you on the cut! 🤣 ETA - I think tilting will give more benefits- and more often- when we have mounts that can swivel 360 degrees, as well as tilting. I've only ever seen maybe half a dozen boats with that.

Thanks Ian, I think that is a very useful guide for someone in the planning stages, but I've been living with my panels for 3 years now, so I have a good feel for how they will perform in almost any weather and any foliage situation. In summer the solar power is not even an issue - even in a green tunnel I only need a couple of hours sun as it passes overhead, and I'm good for the day. But as you say, in late autumn and winter I do give at least some thought to the solar potential. But - as I bet you do also - I consider the human factors more highly - do I like the place? Is the towpath dry or muddy? Is there someone nearby with a loud genny running for many hours? How close am I to the local shops and amenities etc? There are so many factors that come to mind when you are about to moor somewhere, and solar is not top of my own list most of the time.

I gather the genny's been in storage for at least 8 months, so residual petrol could be a potential issue. Re the solar - yes, I can only tilt my rear panels to 45 degrees, and the front ones not at all, so I'm not getting maximum possible solar. But I don't prioritise the boat angle during winter, in order to get a benefit from tilting. Or at least, its not a top priority. I like a nice open mooring generally without too much high tree cover, but thats more because my boat has smallish windows, and it can get a bit gloomy inside when there are high hedges or trees lining the towpath. The boat is a home, and so I need to enjoy being in it. For me its not a matter of only doing the things that give maximal energy in order to save a few quid in diesel costs. The human factors and personal comfort are big issues for me when choosing a mooring spot. So if there's a more open spot available I'll take it in preference to one that's overshadowed by trees. And of course, quite often you dont have a choice of moorings in the more popular places anyway, and you are simply glad to get any mooring spot at all. Often the only spot you find free has a a high hedge on your south side, or a straggly tree, and that can greatly reduce your solar. Sometimes you might find a spot where the panels can face south and there are no trees- but maybe there is no armco there, and you have the hassle of using mooring pins- whereas a few hundred yards further you might have poor solar, but there might be mooring rings available , so you can moor there very quickly and easily - and if its a cold rainy, windy day, that's pretty much what you want to do. So in reality, each time I moor up I will juggle half a dozen priorities as I approach - it's very situational. Its not always easy to find spots where the side of the boat is facing roughly south, and you can benefit from tilting, AND that you will enjoy staying at. And even if you find a spot that fits those criteria, you might find that the next day is overcast- so its not worth tilting the panels anyway, and you might as well have ignored the boat angle issue, and just moored in a spot that perhaps had an even nicer view, or perhaps was closer to the local shops/pubs. One spot might might have great solar potential, but it might also have a guy running an open frame genny until 10pm or later - especially in winter. Or it might be very busy with passers by, which I'm not that keen on. Or there might be a long, deep stretch of mud, so you have mud caked on your boots every time you step off the boat. Sometimes there'll be a stretch that is facing due north so you cant tilt the panels, but it will have a much drier towpath, and I would pick that spot given the option. Over time, you will learn your own preferences as you gain experience of mooring, and you will probably find there will be several other factors that you prioritise just as highly as gaining some extra solar energy due to the angle of the boat. The snag is that the gains from tilting, at least in my view, are not always worth the cons of the spots where the boat is correctly positioned. And the other thing is that in winter its overcast on many days, which means the panels are best laid flat anyway. Any theoretical yields you might expect to make from panels in the planning stages will almost certainly not be realised when you are out there cruising, for the reasons above and probably a dozen others. Solar is one example of an issue that a new boater might focus on very strongly in the planning stage, and later find that they take a more nuanced approach when they are living the reality. I had a few such issues that I thought would be significant before I got the boat - on some issues I was right, but on several I was way off.

I see what you did there Mr M 🤣

Thanks for the heads up. That's the beauty of this place really- you get a variety of real-life experiences to learn from, and you hear stuff you will never hear from a YT video or a manual. I think to be fair, most of the cons you mention there apply to any similar genny, not just the honda. Plenty of people say that fetching the petrol is no real hassle, so feelings about that issue clearly vary a lot, and you've given me pause for thought. The obvious snag with hondas is they are reputedly thief magnets. One gets the impression that as soon as a honda genny appears, everyone within sight instantly turns into a generator-stealing zombie, or goes feral and jealous like when they argued over the gold in that scene from the Treasure of the Sierra Madre. I dont mind chaining it to the boat when its on the towpath, but storing the petrol is more of a challenge with my lack of space. Convenience is a big plus for using the engine, to the extent that I am starting to have some doubts about how worthwhile a genny would be for the limited time I need it, and especially given I need to spend another £150 on a charger to get the real benefit from it. Thanks David, I'll take a look. There are a few places that sell it cheaper than marinas (as you would imagine), but the ones I've asked will not use a courier service that offer the option of a pickup point, such as DPD and others. Most only seem to deliver to a home address, and I'm currently well over 100 miles from that location, meaning significant travel costs.

Thanks, and yes I can see your point with Hondas being so popular. But one snag is that for me to use it for charging, I will also need an additional 30 or 40 amp mains charger, which is an extra £150 or so - and that might not be so easy to get a decent amount of the purchase price back if I sell it. The point about the carbs gumming is a concern, but hopefully a solvable one without any extra cost. I'd deffo need to see it running before I take it away. I've attached the last dew days of yields for one set of panels, plus some from a few weeks ago. Both sets perform almost identically unless tilted. This was in a mixture of mooring spots with varying levels of direct access to the sun. . In summer they basically go crazy, but I dont have a maximum figure. And unfortunately I'm not as fluent in kWh as I ought to be. I'm sure I've seen both sets yield well over 2kWh on many days, and I definitely recall each set getting in 40-45 amps (at about 13.8 volts) steadily for much of the day during the summer. On a few days they will reach the MPPTs maximum of 50 amps. The front set is rated at 660w and the rear at about 750w, but the front seem better quality, so in practice the yields are almost the same. In high summer I would estimate they yield at least 40 amps for say 5 hours, plus maybe 20 amps for another 4 hours of the day, and the average voltage is around 13.8v. The voltage at the batteries is not a static value, it climbs as they get more full, and by the time the voltage reaches 14v, its basically time to go into float and stop charging them. Its more than you can use in a day, for sure, and that includes cooking using a 1300 watt air fryer, induction hob, kettle etc. Panel performance varies gradually as the seasons advance, its never a static thing- but certainly there's enough to heat the water tank two or three times over on the sunny days, and I was using electric cooking as described on most days until late September. But that said, I've had solar hot water on the odd day in late March and early April, when its really clear and sunny.

My batteries are 400Ah, and I've used my BMV712 to determine exactly how much power each device uses- the more difficult bit is going on to make the sacrifices and changes needed to reduce the usage of some less critical items. But yes, there is certainly some room for power savings- I would guess perhaps 20% or so, without getting too drastic. But that still leaves me needing maybe 1.6 kWh, which brings me back to the focus of the question, comparing genny with engine as a charging source. I already have 1.4kw of panels arranged in two groups, but only of the of the two groups can be tilted - and it already is, although I could tilt those a bit higher. So there's no practicable option to upgrade the solar much. Its fantastic in summer, but it does very little in winter, and I'm not one of those boaters who chooses their mooring spots based on chasing a bit of extra solar in winter. So for me personally, considerations of solar are a bit of a red herring in terms of this discussion. The thing about the honda is that its a one-off opportunity to get a really quiet and very good quality machine for what seems like a very good price, and that was what brought my previously vague thoughts into sharper focus. I'll be moving on in a few days, and then the chance to buy the honda is effectively gone. That said, I'm sure the hyundai wont be too shabby an alternative, and it is brand new and only £400. I remember that video from back in the day when I was looking to get my boat, and one thing he says is that after LPG conversion, the genny will run on petrol or LPG. That is very useful to know, because the one on offer has been converted to LPG, but I would use petrol with it. So its great to know there's no conversion charge involved in using petrol. Since I only need to generate charge for about 3 months of the year, I'm not 100% convinced that its worth the hassle of using a genny at all- but if I do, the fuel price comparisons between petrol and diesel will be a factor. Thanks very much - clearly the honda deserves its very high reputation! The key difference with my approach is that since I have lithium batteries, I can run any devices (up to 2kw), and I dont use higher-power things such as washing machines - so I'll never need to run the genny for that, and I definitely dont want to have it running for up to 8 hours. I'm envisaging it as a charger only for maybe 2 hours per day in winter, which is why I'd need another mains charger to add to my current Sterling unit. Cheers Iain, I've since found out the 12v output only gives 8 amps, which is useless for my intended purpose- but do you think a second 30 amp charger can be wired in and used in parallel with my existing one? The engine oil is a challenge because ebay and amazon no longer allow it to be delivered to collection points, only to a home address. Mine needs 15w-40 API CC oil, and not even Halfords have anything truly compatible, so my best option is usually Morris 10w-40 marine oil from a marina- and they are currently charging between £44 and £48 for 5L. I havent got the brass neck to ask a marina if I can get my oil delivered to them, since they sell the same stuff in house for more money!

You have a very good point, and the hassle factor of lugging petrol has been in my thoughts....

Indeed I do, and apologies for leaving that key fact out of my essay! Apologies David, I was trying to lay out all of the relevant info, but I left that bit out! I do have lithiums so it is a steady 70 amps for almost all of the charge cycle. Cheers Mrs H, fortunately if I get the honda the noise issue is not too bad. I found out about the genny for sale by walking past a guy running one this morning, and I remarked how quiet it was. It was not really any louder than an engine. And if its not worked hard, its engine note is not as harsh as some others I've heard. To minimise noise nuisance I always do my charging around lunchtime or in the afternoon, and very rarely after 4 or 5pm. It also depends what time I think I'll be needing a tank of hot water. But you can charge lithiums at any time of the day really, they'll hold the charge easily. I did have an older guy at my last mooring spot running his engine for hours, sometimes up to 10 and 11pm, but it wasnt an intrusive or harsh noise. I guess his batteries must have been shot. It seems such a waste of fuel and engine time to spend so many hours charging each day, when if you jsut get new batteries you can cut the charging time right down.

That title is a bit a waffly, so let me explain my situation further: I've been pondering buying a 2kw genny to generate electricity from Nov to March (ish), in order to save adding running hours (and wear and tear) to the engine. These are all very tough estimates, but I probably use about 140Ah per day, and my engine charges the batteries at about 70 amps, so I need to run it for about 2 hours each day once we get into November. The solar adds a bit, but not that much. In total would say I need the engine to be charging on roughly 100 days through the winter. On about 20 of those days I'm moving the boat anyway, but on the other 80 of those days the engine would not have to run at all, were it not for its charging duties. So by using the engine to charge the batteries when I'm moored, I reckon I'm adding about 160 hours engine hours each winter (and there will be the odd day in the other seasons, e.g. if I'm moored in a spot with very little solar). The canaline 38 needs a service every 200 hours (I think they might have upped it to 250 hours), and that costs maybe £120 - £140 depending on where I get the oil and filters. So very very roughly, my 80 days of engine charging in winter (plus other assorted days) are probably costing me about £100, in terms of what it adds to the engine servicing costs. So I've been wondering about buying a genny to do the winter charging, and I was considering the Hyundai 2kw P1P model at about £400. But then I met a bloke with a residential mooring, who is selling off some boat-related gear for an older boater who was forced to pack in boating last year. He has a Honda EU20i, two years old but very little used, for sale at £500. Its been converted to gas, but he says it has some parts with it, probably including anything needed to convert back to petrol. So another question I have is - would you go for a brand new Hyundai or a 2 year old Honda? The final complication is how to do the charging. I have a Sterling charger that uses 'mains' power, but it only charges at 30 amps (I think its more designed for hookup power than genny charging). I need a faster charging rate than that, so is it possible to add a second mains type charger like the Victron IP22, and run it in parallel with my existing one somehow, so that I have a total 'mains' charging rate of 60 amps? https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08Q3ZPNKB/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_9?smid=A2B7AX9OLH47CN&psc=1 Or is there an alternative method, e.g. hook the output power of the Honda directly to the batteries (with a fuse), and rely on the Honda to safely manage the charging? I've no idea how clever or otherwise they are when it comes to the management of the charging process, so please forgive my ignorance. My guess is that a proper charger will be needed. In my mind the main benefit of using a genny would be saving wear and tear on the engine, but I'm not sure if 150-200 hours each year is such a big deal? Also, is it better to run an engine daily in winter anyway, rather than leave it unused in very cold weather for a week at a time in between cruises? Lots of questions there, and apologies for the essay, but I'd be grateful for any info or advice about whether my idea is even worthwhile given its winter charging only, and I'd have the extra cost of a charger, etc etc. Apologies in advance as I wont be able to reply immediately today, but I shall be keeping an eye in things and will reply when possible.

I have a feeling that you may be preaching to the converted here, because I don't think liveaboard boaters are within the segment of the population that 'squanders' energy. Most boaters have a good sense of how much energy we use. Bear in mind that the optimal methods for hot water, cooking and space heating vary with the season. What methods do you have in mind for cooking toast and heating water, when you refer to living a more natural boat life? Are you thinking of propane, or something else? Toasters, kettles and microwaves, and indeed most electrical equipment, are absolutely sensible in summer, when you have lots of free solar energy available. I've been using an electric kettle, toaster, air fryer and induction hob for 6 months of this year, and have thus saved a lot of propane usage. But now that the solar is dropping, they will be packed away until next Spring. I tend to carry on using the kettle in winter, but I'm not sure how much more that electricity is costing me, as compared to using the gas hob. But generally speaking, boaters are very aware of their electricity usage in winter, because it determines how long they have to run an engine or generator to replace the charge they've used, and most would rather run the engine for less time, and spend less on diesel or petrol if that is feasible. We have that direct incentive to reduce usage. There is the oft-discussed question of reducing electricity usage by not using a fridge during winter, but personally I would rather use the fridge, and bear the cost. If our planet and our resources are in such a parlous state that we can't afford to use our fridges (and I accept that may well be the case), then there might also be a case for saying that none of us should be driving boats that burn a litre of diesel every mile.

But what if- like our very own Mr Baj- you are doing both of those things? Also, he/she needs more electricity to cook the squirrels that she/he/they (it?) hunt for food.

The cost of generating power should probably not be a key factor in deciding whether to take a winter mooring with hookup, or to continuously cruise. That decision will be made by your inclinations and your preferences. In my case, I don't like living on the boat in marinas for any longer than I absolutely have to. So bear in mind that even if electricity generation is much more expensive than hookup, living in a marina for a full winter might not suit you. For me personally, it feels a bit like when I stayed over at friends' houses as a child - you are more conscious of there being behaviour rules and constraints. I was in a marina for 4 months during the lockdown winter of 2020/2021, awaiting various repairs and upgrades that were massively delayed. It was a lovely place with lovely staff, but I felt very happy and liberated when I finally cruised out of the place. But personal preferences aside, everything depends on your charging setup. Some folks, like Nick, have powerful alternators that can generate 120 to 150Ah of charge in an hour- so their daily electricity cost is about 1 litre of diesel. Others have alternators that charge at 30 or 40 amps, so they take much longer (and use more fuel) to generate the charge needed for a day's running of the boat systems. If your boat has a low power charging system, your cheapest option might be to buy a 2kw genny for say £400, and live with the hassle of fetching petrol regularly in jerrycans. That will also save wear and tear on the engine, and reduce the frequency of engine services. And the cost of services is not small. Marinas are now charging around £45 for 5L of my engine oil (API CC)- so its maybe £90 a time just for the oil, before you get into the filters etc. If you're running the engine for 3 hours a day in winter, as I've seen many do, that means you might need two extra services each year, and you are also adding hundreds of hours of engine running time. Anyway, enough of my babble - suffice to say there are quite a few related issues to take into account when deciding the best/cheapest way to generate electricity in winter (your solar panels will do the job in summer), and there are many more qualified and experienced folks on here who will explain the issues much better than I can. ETA: One thing to consider with a 2kw genny is how that charge will get into the batteries. For example, I have tried charging with a genny by plugging the genny output into the mains hookup socket of the boat. That will direct the charge from the genny into the the batteries, but the charger involved in that process is only rated at 30 amps, so I would need to run the genny for 4 or 5 hours each day to replace the charge I use. So to get the best out of a 2kw genny, you might need a bigger charger, one that can put 70 to 80 amps into the batteries at 12 or 13v. So your boat's current charging setup (using 240v) is a potential factor.

So, I was suggesting that my MPPTs might in fact be psychic? There you go again with your so-called 'science'. For all you know, Derek Acorah might be working for Victron...

You cant call them corridors - you'll go to boaters hell too! Still, we wont need much insulation down there, so the sliding roof can stay open.

Apologies if I've got this wrong- it would hardly be first time! But last year (ish) I changed over to managing the MPPT chargers via their charging voltage settings. Previously I based it on SoC. So I would set them to be switched off by a BMV712 (using the BMS input on the MPPTs), when the batteries SoC reached my target level (usually 85%). Nowadays I use the more blunt instrument of the bulk charge voltage to manage the MPPTs. And I find that if I set the bulk charge voltage to about 13.9v, the MPPTs will go into float mode when the batteries are about 80-85% full. But its not a precise science. For example, on a scorching July day with each MPPT giving 40 amps or more, I find they go into float sometimes when the batteries are less full- sometimes 75% SoC or less. But if the charging current is only about 15-20 amps, the batteries seem to get more full before they go into float- perhaps over 90%. So the charging current seems to be a variable, as well as the bulk charging voltage. But another thing I've noticed after making this change is that the victron MPPTS history page shows the actual energy delivered to the batteries, and also a second figure, which I think indicates how much power was available, but was not delivered because the MPPTs were in float mode. So if I'm right about that, I can see how much potential solar energy there was on a given day, as well as how much was actually collected in the batteries.

Alas, my dear Mr M, it is me that is atypical. I am a philistine's philistine really- I removed the barometer thingy from the saloon to make it look less boaty. And I painted the interior in a lovely shade I got from B+Q. I believe they call it London White. If there is a hell for boaters, its as sure as eggs I'm heading there. I thought you fatty boaters get a nosebleed if you venture onto a normal canal?

Those who've had these filter systems fitted (and at no small expense) will usually swear they are brilliant. And maybe they are, to be fair. And it sounds like a great idea- but I would firstly work out how many hours each day you will need to run the pumps that drive the water through all the filters. I suspect it takes a good quality and fairly powerful pump to make it work reliably, but more importantly you would need to budget for the extra electricity you will need to generate each day, to drive the water filter pump. In summer you could probably drive the pump using solar for much of the time (if you had a decent solar setup), but for up to half the year you would need to burn diesel or petrol to create the charge needed for the water pump. So for me the question is- how much will it cost you in fuel? If you cruise even once a week or so, you will pass water points often enough that you can top up for 'free' (someone will point out that you pay for it as part of the license fee, but you know what I mean). Maybe the filter systems solve a headache in those congested places (like London) where you normally prefer to stay on a mooring for the full 14 days allowed? But for much of the country, these systems feel to me like an expensive solution to a problem that is easier to solve using a hose and a water tap.

Thanks again - I can only imagine that since there are plenty of 12ft wide steel narrowboats on the wide canals (with what - about 6ft air draft?), it must be possible to cruise some type broads cruisers along them. I dont know if this is just overly cautious hire companies, but the blurb on the Richardsons website says this: "Please be aware that when navigating any bridge the sliding/folding canopy and screens must be lowered. Ensure that loose equipment is removed from cabin tops and that the crew remain below." Thanks Tony - I'm sure I've passed by a few broads type cruisers, but cant recall what canals or when tbh. Can I ask- do you know what the typical range is for the air draft of narrowboats? Clearly the broads cruisers are about 6ft 6ins, so if the widebeam narrowboats are close to that height, that would be encouraging.

Thanks very much for all that useful info! There was one thing that struck me about the 'highliner' style (the ones with the raised steering position?) I've gotten the impression you spent much of your cruising time on rivers and estuaries etc, whereas I think I'd be spending at least some time on wide-lock canals such as the L+L. Am I right in thinking that for many canal bridges, you'd have to slide back the roof and lower the windscreen to get the boat under the bridge? If that really is the case, it might rule out that type completely from my thinking. I couldn't get used to the hassle of lowering the roof at, say, every third or fourth bridge. Especially if it was raining.

I think that is a lovely boat- especially that interior- leather seating too! In my case, spending half the time on canals (and solo), I'd probably go for something maybe 7 or 8 feet shorter, to make general cruising easier. Also, as lovely as it is, that is probably 30k above my budget range- but as I say, its more of a germ of an idea at the moment, so I dont have any fixed requirements. I suspect the ideal one would be around 1990, less than 100k, and where someone has already done a lot of the renovation/conversion work for winter living aboard- insulation wherever possible, a stove, floor supports replaced, that kind of thing. But yes, I couldnt agree more- that is a lovely boat.

Thanks Peter, and yes the sliding roofs look problematic for living aboard full time during winter. If I get one I'll fix the roof in place with something semi permanent - maybe with fixings that I could perhaps remove, if it ever came to selling it on. Most of them are made to get under one or two key bridges on the Broads (Ludham and Potter Higham?), so most windscreens can be lowered to below 7ft air draft. But with what I know so far, it seems sensible to aim for one that does not have the higher driving position. Fuel economy isnt one of my reasons for thinking about one, but if future govts start taxing diesel increasingly as an environmental measure, it good to know that they are more economical with fuel. More than anything else, its having a normal width lounge and bedroom that appeals- but as I said, I'm a few years away yet!

It may never happen Ms H tbh. It's just the odd thought that I wonder about sometimes. So I thought I'd see there was any interest in it as a discussion question, and to flag up any major problems. And I'm glad I did. I've already heard of at least half a dozen major issues, that have to be sorted for the boat to even be habitable - so its just as likely not to happen. I do have a preference to live in a bigger-feeling space. And so for me, the narrowboat width of 7ft has always been a big negative, in terms of being comfortable within your living space. Its worth the sacrifice of space now, whilst all of the places are new and interesting. But someday the novelty will reduce, and then the desire for more space might take over as the top priority.

The old ones are the best - sometimes!