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washing machine on board


Poppin

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

If you run off the hot feed, how do you control the washing temperature.  Most modern washing liquids work through enzyme action, too hot and you 'kill' the enzymes and you won't clean your clothes.

The hot water is provided via a Morco geyser, so that's adjusted to give lukewarm water.  At some point, the roundtuit will fit a thermostatic mixer to the feed....

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2 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

I could yes.

I would be grateful if you would.

I have looked thru' every MAIB report I can find on the subject of CO poisoning and have yet to find a single one that lists the cause as a SF stove.

Primary causes have been petrol generators, and secondly 'gas hobs/ovens' used to heat the cabin.

 

I think it is such a poorly known subject that we should do everything possible to highlight the problems when, in the UK,30 people over the last few years have lost their lives on boats due to CO.

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34 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would be grateful if you would.

I have looked thru' every MAIB report I can find on the subject of CO poisoning and have yet to find a single one that lists the cause as a SF stove.

Primary causes have been petrol generators, and secondly 'gas hobs/ovens' used to heat the cabin.

 

I think it is such a poorly known subject that we should do everything possible to highlight the problems when, in the UK,30 people over the last few years have lost their lives on boats due to CO.

And yet we still go on boats fairly often that dont have a couple of peanuts cost co alarms fitted :banghead:

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6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

And yet we still go on boats fairly often that dont have a couple of peanuts cost co alarms fitted :banghead:

I have searched the costco website. I can only see smoke alarms and burgliar alarms. Did you get your peanut alarm in store? 

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14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

And yet we still go on boats fairly often that dont have a couple of peanuts cost co alarms fitted :banghead:

One sad tale (generator incident) from the MAIB report :

 

To heat the boat’s accommodation the portable generator was started remotely using a fob, in order to power a fan heater. The fan heater had recently been purchased and could be set to either 1kW or 2kW. On this occasion it was on the 1kW setting.

Shortly after the group ate their lunch, the owner fell asleep at the table.

When he awoke, he felt very unwell; his fingers were numb and he had pains in his chest. The owner was extremely disorientated and was not fully conscious.

He struggled onto the upper deck and laid down on the seating area to recover. After an unknown period of time the owner started to feel better and he made his way back down below.

The door to the aft cabin was ajar, Kelly and Lauren were both inside and appeared to be unconscious. Neither Kelly nor her daughter responded to the owner’s attempts to wake them.

 

And another - using the cooker as a heater, from the MAIB report:

 

Before going to bed, the skipper (aged 26) and the crewman (aged 21) had lit the grill of a butane gas cooker fitted in the wheelhouse in order to warm both the wheelhouse and the adjacent sleeping area.

When they were not seen as expected the following morning, crewmen from fishing vessels tied up close by forced open the wheelhouse door.

The gas grill was still lit and the wheelhouse was full of fumes; the two men were dead in their bunks.

Eshcol was not fitted with a carbon monoxide alarm.


The last line is very relevant !!

 

Couple die on the Norfolk Broads :

 

A Marine Accident Investigation Branch (MAIB) report has since suggested the couple were overcome by exhaust fumes from the boat’s engine, which may have been running to charge the batteries.

Thursday’s inquest heard that Mr Frost had bought the boat in 2016, and it was their first holiday on board.

A pre-purchase check noted that the boat did not have a carbon monoxide alarm, but installing one was not a recommendation.

The inquest heard how the cabin was not ventilated property, and that carbon monoxide levels reached 2,000 parts per million (PPM) in the helm in 39 seconds.

Thirty-five PPM is considered a permissible exposure level.

 

Line 4 is very relevant !!

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Yes similar to propane ....but we handle propane properly ie under pressure in a system that stops it escaping as defined by the BSS

A can of petrol is different. If the can is not 100% full ....which is always the case....the air space above the petrol will be saturated with Butane (often under pressure). When you take the can lid off, the butane (gas) rushes out and flows along the floor and finds the lowest way off the boat....which is often down the stairs into the boat.....unseen. When you pour the petrol into the generator, the butane in the petrol will evaporate and flow to the lowest point as well. Never a good idea to do this on the deck of the boat. The risk of problems with petrol on a boat are far far higher than the risks with propane as the propane risks are mitigated to a large extent by the requirements of the BSS. The safest way of handling petrol on a boat is to not have it on the boat.

 

If only there was somewhere to pour petrol into the generator, other than on the boat...

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would be grateful if you would.

I have looked thru' every MAIB report I can find on the subject of CO poisoning and have yet to find a single one that lists the cause as a SF stove.

Primary causes have been petrol generators, and secondly 'gas hobs/ovens' used to heat the cabin.

 

I think it is such a poorly known subject that we should do everything possible to highlight the problems when, in the UK,30 people over the last few years have lost their lives on boats due to CO.

Not through CO, through pyrolysis causing fires.  MAIB doesn't investigate everything and they tend to be particularly keen on CO related issues.

 

Where generators have caused CO deaths, it's almost always as a result of a dodgy diy installation or running the generator partially inside the boat, combined with no CO detector.  In fact, has anyone ever died on a boat with a functioning CO detector?  You can buy them for peanuts!  If I were of the mean-spirited persuation I'd suggest that anyone on a boat with no CO detector is a candidate for a Darwin Award.  Many do though.  In my other current thread I've mentioned that my stove is cracked.  I've balanced with issue with a complete overkill on CO detectors.

Edited by doratheexplorer
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17 hours ago, DaveP said:

I had a Candy Aquamatic 100F (the little 3.5kg load one) which lasted for 14 years.  Fabulously small and would run off a 1kw Genny (just) or the engine and inverter.  It chewed up the bearings last year and I replaced it with the Aquamatic 104D1.  Only has a cold-water inlet - which I've connected to the hot water line.  The heater was more powerful than the 100F so wouldnt run off the Genny - it needs about 1.5kw.  But with the Morco supplying hot water, it only uses about 10ah for a 1hour wash.  It also uses about half the water of the old machine (20 litres-ish).  Wouldn't be without a washing machine onboard as a cc'ing liveaboard....

This is exactly the scanerio I was thinking of getting. How much did you pay for the new candy? I'm seeing around £450. I was going to plumb this directly into the hot water as well. Do you just tell the machine to do a cold wash and it has no issues with the hot being fed in? I was concerned it would sense the hot and refuse to work or something. 

I'm guessing it doesn't need that 1.5kw when plumbed into the hot water? That's only when it's heating element engages right? 

Also our inverter is an old sterling modified sine wave, I'm guessing you have a pure sine wave?

 

 

17 hours ago, DaveP said:

I had a Candy Aquamatic 100F (the little 3.5kg load one) which lasted for 14 years.  Fabulously small and would run off a 1kw Genny (just) or the engine and inverter.  It chewed up the bearings last year and I replaced it with the Aquamatic 104D1.  Only has a cold-water inlet - which I've connected to the hot water line.  The heater was more powerful than the 100F so wouldnt run off the Genny - it needs about 1.5kw.  But with the Morco supplying hot water, it only uses about 10ah for a 1hour wash.  It also uses about half the water of the old machine (20 litres-ish).  Wouldn't be without a washing machine onboard as a cc'ing liveaboard....

This is exactly the scanerio I was thinking of getting. How much did you pay for the new candy? I'm seeing around £450. I was going to plumb this directly into the hot water as well. Do you just tell the machine to do a cold wash and it has no issues with the hot being fed in? I was concerned it would sense the hot and refuse to work or something. 

I'm guessing it doesn't need that 1.5kw when plumbed into the hot water? That's only when it's heating element engages right? 

Also our inverter is an old sterling modified sine wave, I'm guessing you have a pure sine wave?

 

 

17 hours ago, DaveP said:

I had a Candy Aquamatic 100F (the little 3.5kg load one) which lasted for 14 years.  Fabulously small and would run off a 1kw Genny (just) or the engine and inverter.  It chewed up the bearings last year and I replaced it with the Aquamatic 104D1.  Only has a cold-water inlet - which I've connected to the hot water line.  The heater was more powerful than the 100F so wouldnt run off the Genny - it needs about 1.5kw.  But with the Morco supplying hot water, it only uses about 10ah for a 1hour wash.  It also uses about half the water of the old machine (20 litres-ish).  Wouldn't be without a washing machine onboard as a cc'ing liveaboard....

This is exactly the scanerio I was thinking of getting. How much did you pay for the new candy? I'm seeing around £450. I was going to plumb this directly into the hot water as well. Do you just tell the machine to do a cold wash and it has no issues with the hot being fed in? I was concerned it would sense the hot and refuse to work or something. 

I'm guessing it doesn't need that 1.5kw when plumbed into the hot water? That's only when it's heating element engages right? 

Also our inverter is an old sterling modified sine wave, I'm guessing you have a pure sine wave?

 

 

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53 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Not through CO, through pyrolysis causing fires.  MAIB doesn't investigate everything and they tend to be particularly keen on CO related issues.

OK I'll try and define it a little better.

 

Could you please provide figures / references showing that more people have died as a result of a 'solid fuel stove' than have died as a result of a petrol engine, or gas stove/heater.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

OK I'll try and define it a little better.

 

Could you please provide figures / references showing that more people have died as a result of a 'solid fuel stove' than have died as a result of a petrol engine, or gas stove/heater.

Probably.  It would take weeks to sift and collate the data and then it wouldn't solve or prove anything though.

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30 minutes ago, Poppin said:

Do you just tell the machine to do a cold wash and it has no issues with the hot being fed in?

Yes

30 minutes ago, Poppin said:

I was concerned it would sense the hot and refuse to work or something. 

No need to be concerned, it won’t. 

31 minutes ago, Poppin said:

I'm guessing it doesn't need that 1.5kw when plumbed into the hot water?

Good guess :)

32 minutes ago, Poppin said:

That's only when it's heating element engages right? 

Correct. 

32 minutes ago, Poppin said:

our inverter is an old sterling modified sine wave

That might or might not be an issue. Certainly the motor will run hotter but it’s likely that the circuitry on a Candy won’t care. 

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Having just seen the video posted previously about Cruising the Cut using a new Hotpoint machine, I'm now quite tempted by this idea. Cheaper than the smaller machines and can handle a lot more. I just wish I could find some info on average amount of litres used per average wash

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3 minutes ago, Poppin said:

Having just seen the video posted previously about Cruising the Cut using a new Hotpoint machine, I'm now quite tempted by this idea. Cheaper than the smaller machines and can handle a lot more. I just wish I could find some info on average amount of litres used per average wash

I haven't time to check now but I'm sure he mentions the amount of water it uses - possibly 20l?

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41 minutes ago, Poppin said:

Having just seen the video posted previously about Cruising the Cut using a new Hotpoint machine, I'm now quite tempted by this idea. 

I don’t believe it has any complex electronics either, so might be happy with your MSW inverter. 

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2 hours ago, frahkn said:

I haven't time to check now but I'm sure he mentions the amount of water it uses - possibly 20l?

 

From the data sheet at http://docs.whirlpool.eu/_doc/PFF087755EN.pdf linked from https://www.hotpoint.co.uk/h/laundry/washing-machines/hotpoint-aquarius-wmtf-722-h-washing-machine-white/f087755:

"Water consumption 9200 litres per year, based on 220 standard washing cycles for cotton programmes at 60°C and 40°C at full and partial load. Actual water consumption will depend on how the appliance is used."

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13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Water consumption 9200 litres per year, based on 220 standard washing cycles for cotton programmes at 60°C and 40°C at full and partial load.

So that’s an average of about 42 litres per wash. 

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7 hours ago, Poppin said:

This is exactly the scanerio I was thinking of getting. How much did you pay for the new candy? I'm seeing around £450. I was going to plumb this directly into the hot water as well. Do you just tell the machine to do a cold wash and it has no issues with the hot being fed in? I was concerned it would sense the hot and refuse to work or something. 

I'm guessing it doesn't need that 1.5kw when plumbed into the hot water? That's only when it's heating element engages right? 

Also our inverter is an old sterling modified sine wave, I'm guessing you have a pure sine wave?

 

I think I paid about £430 - Appliances Direct.  Yes, just tell it to do a cold wash, no issues.  Yes, it only takes about 200w peak (spin) w/o the heater.  I am using a pure sine wave inverter(1kw); even the old machine objected to modified sine (one would run it a double speed).

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I'm going with the hotpoint, I managed to pick one up for a bargain price so I'll put the extra money into a pure sine wave inverter I think, I've wanted one for a while anyway as current inverter heats things up!

 

I wan't to be able to switch the water feed from hot to cold, whats the best way to do this? So far the only valves I can find for washing machine input hoses are compression tee valves for 15mm pipe. I guess I could tap into both hot and cold lines near the sink with a couple of simple speedfit tee, but I'd need some kind of tap piece for them both to go into, between those and the washing machine hose. Anyone have this set up? Not sure what to look for.

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27 minutes ago, Poppin said:

I guess I could tap into both hot and cold lines near the sink with a couple of simple speedfit tee, but I'd need some kind of tap piece for them both to go into

Something like this?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DN15-G1-2-304-Stainless-Steel-Female-Lever-Handle-3-Way-L-Port-Ball-Valve-/283251504827

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54 minutes ago, Poppin said:

 

I wan't to be able to switch the water feed from hot to cold,

You will probably need to lower the temperature of the hot water to, say, 40 C to be able to use the lower temperature programmes.  It's likely that an engine heated calorifier will be at a much higher temperature. Some calorifiers e.g. Surecal have built in thermostatic mixers to reduce the delivered water to a safe temperature but if yours does not you may need to fit one.

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1 hour ago, philjw said:

You will probably need to lower the temperature of the hot water to, say, 40 C to be able to use the lower temperature programmes.  It's likely that an engine heated calorifier will be at a much higher temperature. Some calorifiers e.g. Surecal have built in thermostatic mixers to reduce the delivered water to a safe temperature but if yours does not you may need to fit one.

In fact, you should fit one anyway, regardless of a washing machine. It’s safer for you plus you’ll use less hot water. 

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I have decided to install the washing machine in the kitchen area and tap into both hot and cot supplies under the sink. Before the washing machine I will install either a thermostatic mixing valve or a simpler mixer valve. The down sides to the thermostatic valve are, as I see it:

 

1. limits temperature to around 45 degrees max (I cannot find one that goes above this)

2. They act unpredictably regarding flow rate if the calorifier happens to be too cold to reach the set temperature

3. more expensive. 

 

My preference is to use something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07CM6515V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

However I would still like to know the rough temperature of the water going in. I cannot seem to find a valve with a simple thermometer that I could install on the outlet of the mixer. Any suggestions? The closest I can find is this but seems to be the wrong size;

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-UNDERFLOOR-HEATING-MANIFOLD-BALL-VALVE-WITH-THERMOMETER-RED-BLUE-HANDLE-/142571866682

 

and these seems to be unreliable:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Clip-pipe-thermometer-hot-water/dp/B00GYV0L5I/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1549146929&sr=8-5&keywords=pipe+thermometer

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22 minutes ago, Poppin said:

The down sides to the thermostatic valve are, as I see it:

 

1. limits temperature to around 45 degrees max (I cannot find one that goes above this)

2. They act unpredictably regarding flow rate if the calorifier happens to be too cold to reach the set temperature

3. more expensive. 

If you only do a 30 or 40 degree wash and set the valve to this you won't need to heat the water at all.  If you want a hotter wash, you won't need to heat the water as much but can still do so via you inverter/travelpower/shoreline.

 

If you run the engine for an hour before starting a wash you will not have trouble with flow rates, not like the machine will care - it will fill to a set point before proceeding.

Edited by TheBiscuits
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