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Sparx

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I'm on the look out for some opinions. 

A year ago an organisation that we all know gave me a quote for an engine replacement. I accepted the quote for a pre-owned engine of the same model. 

After months of procrastination the work was finally carried out. 

When I came to start the engine I discovered that the engine temp gauge had not been connected and nor had the sender been transfered from the previous engine.the oil pressure gauge that I had supplied along with matching sender had not been installed. 

I immediately conveyed my dissatisfaction and they - not too promptly - came and made right.

To my surprise I received an extra invoice for extra work to the tune of £350 (or thereabouts). 

I argued that they should have done all this at the same time as the engine replacement or, during the "bench testing". An engine should surely Always have basic instruments. 

They even claimed that They had bought new instruments. I argued each instance they threw at me. Never did they offer any compromise. Eventually the emails stopped. I assumed that they had seen the error of their ways and were going to leave it at that. 

Now a year later I have a demand for payment and the threat of debt collection. 

My premise has been that any engine, anywhere, should have temp and oil pressure indicators, if fitted by professionals. 

Am I being unreasonable? 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sparx said:

Am I being unreasonable? 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but unless you had a detailed quotation / contract you could both argue that you are correct.

 

If they didn't say they would do X, Y & Z then you don't have a leg to stand on.

If they said they would remove the old engine and install a new one (but no mention of ancillaries) I doubt you have a case.

 

Sorry.

 

Just for the benefit of others, Over the years I have found it better for both parties to have a detailed written record of any work to be undertaken. It avoids any nastiness and threats of debt collectors, court action etc from either party.

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22 minutes ago, Sparx said:

I'm on the look out for some opinions. 

A year ago an organisation that we all know gave me a quote for an engine replacement. I accepted the quote for a pre-owned engine of the same model. 

After months of procrastination the work was finally carried out. 

When I came to start the engine I discovered that the engine temp gauge had not been connected and nor had the sender been transfered from the previous engine.the oil pressure gauge that I had supplied along with matching sender had not been installed. 

I immediately conveyed my dissatisfaction and they - not too promptly - came and made right.

To my surprise I received an extra invoice for extra work to the tune of £350 (or thereabouts). 

I argued that they should have done all this at the same time as the engine replacement or, during the "bench testing". An engine should surely Always have basic instruments. 

They even claimed that They had bought new instruments. I argued each instance they threw at me. Never did they offer any compromise. Eventually the emails stopped. I assumed that they had seen the error of their ways and were going to leave it at that. 

Now a year later I have a demand for payment and the threat of debt collection. 

My premise has been that any engine, anywhere, should have temp and oil pressure indicators, if fitted by professionals. 

Am I being unreasonable? 

 

I suggest you get some legal advice from your local Citizens Advice  https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/ .   Paying in full for work you have not checked is a big mistake. You could try threatening them with the small claims court but I would get advice first.

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Not all engines are fitted with oil pressure gauge nor temperature gauge. Our boat has neither and therefore I would not expect them to be fitted unless specified by myself at the time of ordering the engine replacement. Did you specifically request replacements  and/or re-instatements ? Apologies if this is nor the support you were looking for.

 

Edited by Boatingbiker
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When I had my Lister rebuilt (never had a temp gauge) he fitted a new oil pressure gauge which has never worked.  As the old one never had either I didn't bother to complain.  I was more annoyed that he was supposed to give me a detailed breakdown of the work done (promised at the outset), which he never did.  He also took six months or thereabouts over a job quoted at three weeks, and only got finished then because I rang him up every other day, and called in twice a week to see how he was getting on.  He came extremely highly recommended and probably did a good job, whatever it was he actually did...

I'd like to know what the organisation that we all know was, though!

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I would argue that it should have either a warning light or a gauge for both temp and pressure, this being either left to them to choose or for you to specify.  If they left you without either a warning light or a gauge then I would argue it was not adequately installed and reasonable for you to require rectification.

 

If they came and fitted the gauge(s) without making it clear there would be a charge or giving you an estimate before hand then they have a weak case as you can argue that they agreed to fit foc to complete the job as they have no evidence to the contrary.

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3 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

If they came and fitted the gauge(s) without making it clear there would be a charge or giving you an estimate before hand then they have a weak case as you can argue that they agreed to fit foc to complete the job as they have no evidence to the contrary.

But do 'you' have the evidence (letter / fax / email) confirming that the additional work would be done FoC ?

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But do 'you' have the evidence (letter / fax / email) confirming that the additional work would be done FoC ?

 Equally do they have any evidence that this wasn’t being done under warranty ? 

 

It it seems to me that the temperature sender should have been transferred and connected as part of the replacement process. 

 

I think your position on the oil pressure gauge is less certain.  Fitting the sender whilst replacing the engine I would assume to be pretty trivial, however fitting a gauge where none was before is a lot more work.  Locating ignition live feed wiring hole  cutting, connecting sender etc.... so do you have something that says this was part of the job, even if it was a verbal agreement? 

 

Frankly i I wouldn’t be intimidated by the threat of debt recovery action.  If you have evidence and/or are certain of your position then tell them to bring it on and your happy to challenge them in court and will be seeking compensation for the poor initial job .

 

 

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I was going to say exactly the same as Alan but he said it first. I would only add that if at all possible it is a really good idea to be as proficient as possible in fixing things yourself. Not everyone has the know how or inclination and I don't want to appear harsh but if an owner can do stuff it saves time, aggro and lots of money.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The owner 'requested' them to do the work.

Sorry Alan I think you have misread  that. no where does the OP say he requested them to do the work. 

 

I agree  he does need to clear about exactly what was said / agreed and preferably in writing.  If it was me I would be writing down what was said by who and when tying in any  emails, texts or whatever to build my ‘evidence’ 

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4 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Sorry Alan I think you have misread  that. no where does the OP say he requested them to do the work. 

 

4 hours ago, Sparx said:

I immediately conveyed my dissatisfaction and they - not too promptly - came and made right.

Translation : "I want you to come and sort this NOW !!!"

 

I have had a similar (boat based) scenario and know how things get twisted around to the benefit of whoever is telling the 'facts'.

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I think that people have got used to getting Engineers and 'engineers' in to do stuff and expect some poor bloke when presented with a tangle of wires and old pipes sitting in 4 inches of oily water to do miracles. Most boats are not  like a bunch of Ford Fiestas, they are all a bit different, there is probably no reliable manual or any manual at all, you often need to arrive with a ton of tools to tackle every eventuality and welding gear as well as woodworking tools and a bucket full of plumbing tools (and a pump) There is a yawning gulf between what both parties believe is a finished job.

  • Greenie 1
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So it’s your opinion that the OP requested the work and therefore only has himself to blame ? (But none of us really knows we need the OP to clarify further)

 

I deal with situations like this daily, and often end up saying yes I’ll send one of my guys to sort whatever it is but if it’s not our equipment faulty I will be charging you or ( often the case) this is your other suppliers issue which I’m happy to resolve but the cost will be x if it is. 

 

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56 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

So it’s your opinion that the OP requested the work and therefore only has himself to blame ?

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm suggesting that the 'supplier, did not clearly state what work they were doing for the price quoted, and the 'customer' did not ask what work was included in the price.

 

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The original engine had a water temp gauge.

Also I supplied the oil pressure gauge with matching sender.

Later they claimed that they had supplied the kit themselves. 

If my car came back from the garage with no water and oil gauge I would be surprised. Ask any mechanic. How do you know if your engine is getting too hot or run out of oil? 

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2 hours ago, Sparx said:

The original engine had a water temp gauge.

Also I supplied the oil pressure gauge with matching sender.

Later they claimed that they had supplied the kit themselves. 

If my car came back from the garage with no water and oil gauge I would be surprised. Ask any mechanic. How do you know if your engine is getting too hot or run out of oil? 

My car (5 years old) has only a light for temp - blue when cold, red if too hot and normally off.  Oil pressure is just a light if too low.  If you wait for the oil pressure light to come on whilst driving before topping up you will have caused a lot of engine damage.

 

Back to boats, mine when I got it had no gauges for temp or pressure, though like you I think they are needed so I fitted them myself.  As I said earlier I think the boatyard will fail to justify not having warning lights and/or gauges, but i don’t think you can expect gauges instead of warning lights unless it was specified or agreed.

 

added - a bit of clarity 

Edited by Chewbacka
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On 27/01/2019 at 15:21, Sparx said:

 

Am I being unreasonable? 

 

You are not being unreasonable . However I suggest you pay up and move on. Never use that company again and tell everyone you can about your experience .

I have heard a lot worse.

 

 

 

 

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