Gas pigtail outlet sizes?

[jetzi]

I noticed a faint smell of gas from our bow gas locker last week and so bought a replacement pigtail (the flexible hose that connects whichever is the active bottle to the regulator). I tried the trick where you smear fairy liquid over the assembly to look for bubbles and I think I saw some from the hose - very slight though. I understand that the pigtails do require replacement every so often.

 

I naively thought the only difference was in the connection to the gas bottle - propane or butane - I bought this butane pigtail since I have red butane gas bottles. Unfortunately when it arrived, it turned out that the nut that attaches the hose to the regulator is 24mm, while on my old one the nut is 14mm.

 

I took a look at gasproducts.co.uk which sell pigtails with four different outlet sizes -

• 1/4" Bspm T
• 1/4" Inverted Flair
• POL
• W20

 

I think the one I bought (with the 24mm nut outlet) is the W20. Can anyone explain the others and which one I need to fit on my regulator?

[philjw]

7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I bought this butane pigtail since I have red butane gas bottles.

I don't know what make of bottle you have but blue is usually butane and red propane. At least this is true for Calor. If you have a left hand threaded male connector that screws onto the bottle that should be propane if it is or is like Calor.

Edited January 22, 2019 by philjw
addition

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

POL

This is the left handed thread that screws directly into a (RED) propane cylinder

 

https://gasproducts.co.uk/20-148-propane-gas-pigtail-pol-x-w20.html?currency=GBP&gclid=Cj0KCQiAm5viBRD4ARIsADGUT24zJxICaQId-urjliy7QBkTThuJuIdJUh-UO3nrqTjzSrR7eFObb38aAoQ9EALw_wcB

 

The W20 is the end that (should) thread onto your regulator.

 

What size (Kgs/hour) regulator do you have ?

This may affect which size of hose fits to it. (big regulator = big fitting)

Edited January 22, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[jetzi]

42 minutes ago, philjw said:

I don't know what make of bottle you have but blue is usually butane and red propane. At least this is true for Calor. If you have a left hand threaded male connector that screws onto the bottle that should be propane if it is or is like Calor.

 

36 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is the left handed thread that screws directly into a (RED) propane cylinder

 

https://gasproducts.co.uk/20-148-propane-gas-pigtail-pol-x-w20.html?currency=GBP&gclid=Cj0KCQiAm5viBRD4ARIsADGUT24zJxICaQId-urjliy7QBkTThuJuIdJUh-UO3nrqTjzSrR7eFObb38aAoQ9EALw_wcB

 

The W20 is the end that (should) thread onto your regulator.

 

What size (Kgs/hour) regulator do you have ?

This may affect which size of hose fits to it. (big regulator = big fitting)

Thanks for clarifying that - I need a POL (left hand male) connector to attach to my red propane gas bottles. I don't know where I got confused thinking that red = butane.

 

The outlet side of my current pigtail that screws onto my regulator has a 14mm nut but it appears that the outlet fitting isn't specified in mm but with a code (W20, for example).

 

I don't know the size of my regulator and it doesn't appear to be written on the device. How can I determine this? It's 10cm in diameter, if that helps.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

 

Thanks for clarifying that - I need a POL (left hand male) connector to attach to my red propane gas bottles. I don't know where I got confused thinking that red = butane.

 

The outlet side of my current pigtail that screws onto my regulator has a 14mm nut but it appears that the outlet fitting isn't specified in mm but with a code (W20, for example).

 

I don't know the size of my regulator and it doesn't appear to be written on the device. How can I determine this? It's 10cm in diameter, if that helps.

The 'size' is normally on the adhesive label attached to the top.

10cm would be a 'fair sized one' but I don't know how many Kgs/Hr

 

Example of a 'smallish' one (1.5kg/hr) but you have a pigtail; between the regulator and the cylinder - the pic shows a 'direct' connected regulator.

 

[Boater Sam]

I prefer the regulator on the bottle then standard low pressure orange hose to the boat nipple. Its cheaper to replace, leaks less due to lower pressure and its only a hose clips job to change every 4 years or so.

That reminds me mine is 6 years old now, must check it.

[jetzi]

38 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

I prefer the regulator on the bottle then standard low pressure orange hose to the boat nipple. Its cheaper to replace, leaks less due to lower pressure and its only a hose clips job to change every 4 years or so.

That reminds me mine is 6 years old now, must check it.

Hmm, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'll look into replacing the pigtail/regulator assembly with a regulator/low pressure hose assembly.

What are the advantages of a high pressure pigtail? Simply that the regulator is positioned more out of the way?

[Boater Sam]

I think it is common when 2 bottles are connected to one regulator, it was a hire boat thing so the hirers didn't have to play with bottles. And some had auto changeover valves.

[jetzi]

I can't see any easy way to replace the regulator assembly. There is a copper pipe that is connected with nuts, so I figure I would need a connector to convert a screw fitting to a hose clamp fitting. I can't find such a thing online.

 

So I am back to looking for a replacement pigtail.

 

The POL propane pigtails usually terminate in a W20 outlet fitting. The pictures look a little larger than mine and I'm guessing W20 means a 20mm nut.

The only other POL pigtail I've found that looks likely is one that terminates in a N2 outlet fitting. This looks like a smaller nut, perhaps 14mm, but it has a little tube in the centre.
 

I can't find any specifications on what these connectors actually mean or which one would replace mine that has a POL connector to the gas bottle and an outlet with a 14mm nut that connects to my regulator. Does anyone have any advice?

[TheBiscuits]

48 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Does anyone have any advice?

Yep.  Gas systems on a liveaboard boat fall under the GSIUR gas safety regulations.

 

Get a GasSafe registered engineer with the extra certificates for LPG on boats to fix it for you.

 

You can either ask around for a local one or find one online by using the appropriate search filters (location + LPG + boats) on https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by TheBiscuits

[jetzi]

Alright, I'll admit defeat on this one. Thanks @TheBiscuits I will find an engineer on the site you linked ?

[alan_fincher]

Some Googling seems to reeal that W20 is baically the same major diameter as M20, but with a different angle on the cut threads.

 

An M20 thread is metric, with the major diameter being 20mm, (2 cm). 

 

You say that the nut on your current pigtail is 14mm?  Do you mean the major diameter of the thread in that nut, or the size across the external flats?

 

Either way it is clearlr far smaller than it sounds like W20 would be, as 14mm is less than 20mm.

 

Maybe post some pictures of both your current pigtail, and of the regulator, and someone may be able to suggest what's going on, although Mike the Boilerman would have been my best shot at answering this, and we seem to have lost him permanently.

 

Post pictures of the whoe of the regulator, including exactly how it is connected to the low pressure pipework at its output end.  If it is none standard at the high pressure end, but standard at the low pressure end, it may be easiest to replace both the regulator and the high pressure pigtail.

 

Good practice is to replace regulators that are aging anyway, and certainly if around 10 years old or more.

[jetzi]

28 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

You say that the nut on your current pigtail is 14mm?  Do you mean the major diameter of the thread in that nut, or the size across the external flats

Yes, the nut is 14mm across the external flats.

 

I'll take some pics and post them later today. In the meantime getting a quote from the gas engineer. Very afraid.

 

The tricky thing is that my gas equipment is all very much fixed down, with rigid copper piping connected with nuts. So anything I do is going to require converting from the current system I have, and I can't work out what is the current system.

 

30 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

W20 is baically the same major diameter as M20, but with a different angle on the cut threads.

I also saw that M and W represented different thread angle. I have no idea how to measure this on my own screw though, and as my fitting appears to be so much smaller than 20mm I don't think either of these are what I need.

[Boater Sam]

Chuck the reg and hose, saw off the connection on the copper pipe, fit a hose tail union to the copper pipe (get correct size compression fitting ) and fit new reg on bottle with orange low pressure hose between, double jubilee hose clips or better, clench rings.

Job done.

[jetzi]

8 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

hose tail union

This is the part I'm struggling to find. I've looked on Amazon, eBay and https://gasproducts.co.uk. I'll see if I can find a brick and mortar store near me to find this. Thanks for your help.

[philjw]

3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I'll see if I can find a brick and mortar store near me to find this. Thanks for your help.

If there is a chandlery that you could visit you should be able to recognise what you need.  Last time I changed pigtails I didn't need to think about it, just picked up the standard item off the shelf.

[jetzi]

 

Here's a pic of the regulator and the connection where the pigtail attaches. The nut that I have unattached in the one picture is 14mm between the flats.

 

It screws on and off really easily so if the gas leak is in the pigtail it seems really foolish to pay the 100 GBP I was quoted just for having a professional replace this, when the part is under 10. If that doesn't fix the problem, I feel happier having paid 110 GBP to fix a problem that I couldn't fix myself than having paid 100 GBP for a problem I might have been able to fix myself.

 

I'd be willing to go for @Boater Sam's option, which would remove the current regulator and all fittings so would definitely fix it, but this is quite a bit more invasive and I'd need to find the hose tail compression connector, which so far I've not found online.

[BEngo]

That pigtail has a compression fitting  pipe end, with a nut and olive. Remove the olive, by tapping the pipe through it and save the nut or saw the pigtails off between the nut and the swaged fitting

 Measure the pipe outside diameter ( probably 3/8 inches)  and buy replacement pigtails with a POL connector (for Calor cylinders) at one end and a pipe of the same diameter at the other. Also buy replacement olives to fit the pipe ends.

 The assembly order is pipe end  with  nut then olive.  Push the pipe end with olive and nut into the block with regulator and tighten up hand tight.  Then tighten half a turn with a spanner. Leak test and tighten the nut another half flat if it leaks.  DO NOT OVERTIGHTEN IT or you will cripple the olive and never get a seal.  DO not use any goo on the fitting either- IIRC that is a BSS no no.

If in doubt get someone more competent to look at it. 

I am only suggesting this because the connection is in the gas locker, where a small leak is only wasting gas,  but I am not at all sure you really have the capabilities to do this job.

 

N

 

 

[jonathanA]

It’s a bit hard to tell from the pics but that looks like a standard regulator with a male pol mated onto some sort of t piece, the left hand side capped off and the right connected to your pigtail, via some sort of reducer I would take the reducer out and take it and the pigtail to a plumbing merchants or a calor depot and see if they can match a new pigtail to one or another of your threads. I would imagine they are BSP fittings but don’t know for sure.

 

might be worth looking at the outlet side of the regulator to see how easy it would be attach flex to the fixed pipe. (Can’t see from the pics)

 

You should try searching for barbed hose tail or barbed pipe connector for the hose adapter 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by jonathanA

[jetzi]

11 hours ago, BEngo said:

That pigtail has a compression fitting  pipe end, with a nut and olive. Remove the olive, by tapping the pipe through it and save the nut or saw the pigtails off between the nut and the swaged fitting

 Measure the pipe outside diameter ( probably 3/8 inches)  and buy replacement pigtails with a POL connector (for Calor cylinders) at one end and a pipe of the same diameter at the other. Also buy replacement olives to fit the pipe ends.

 The assembly order is pipe end  with  nut then olive.  Push the pipe end with olive and nut into the block with regulator and tighten up hand tight.  Then tighten half a turn with a spanner. Leak test and tighten the nut another half flat if it leaks.  DO NOT OVERTIGHTEN IT or you will cripple the olive and never get a seal.  DO not use any goo on the fitting either- IIRC that is a BSS no no.

If in doubt get someone more competent to look at it. 

I am only suggesting this because the connection is in the gas locker, where a small leak is only wasting gas,  but I am not at all sure you really have the capabilities to do this job.

 

Alright so if I understand correctly, in summary you are saying make my own pigtail with the fitting I require by modifying one and reusing the nut? This course of action is less appealing to me than @Boater Sam's suggestion of sawing off the low pressure copper pipe and attaching a barbed hose tail, low pressure orange hose, and regulator directly on the gas bottle, for two reasons: a) if I need to replace the pigtail in future I am still left with a non-standard connector, and b) it doesn't replace the regulator and high-pressure section of the system, so I'm less confident in it being leak proof. But thank you very much for the suggestion, it's good to consider all the options.

 

I've done a fair bit of plumbing with compression fittings but I should imagine that gas under high pressure is more difficult to make leak proof than water. Like @BEngo says, the leak is just wasting a small amount of gas, it's more the hassle of going outside to turn the gas on and off every time we want to use the cooker.

 

10 hours ago, jonathanA said:

I would take the reducer out and take it and the pigtail to a plumbing merchants or a calor depot and see if they can match a new pigtail to one or another of your threads. I would imagine they are BSP fittings but don’t know for sure.

Looking at the pic again, and I think it's quite possible that the T piece that the regulator is attached to is a standard 20mm fitting! I will try disassemble this and see if it fits a W20 pigtail. If I could just remove the T piece and connect the pigtail hose directly to the regulator, that would be very straightforward.

[BEngo]

NO.   In the present set up he pigtail has a standard pipe end that fits into a standard compression fitting.The nut is part of the compression  fitting.

N

17 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Alright so if I understand correctly, in summary you are saying make my own pigtail with the fitting I require by modifying one and reusing the nut?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

It does look a rather elderly regulator - there will be a date on it somewhere.

 

I'd go the simple route.

 

Remove the existing regulator and get a cylinder-mounted regulator and connect the low pressure piping to the regulator with a length of rubber hose.

 

Is the 'outlet' side of the existing regulator a rubber hose ? - it looks as if it maybe but is tucked in behind the cylinder.

If it is a rubber hose already you may find that it is out of date and needs replacing anyway.

 

 

[Chewbacka]

Looks like originally there were 2 bottles feeding into the tee then down to the regulator.  The regulator also looks old.   Why not get rid of the existing regulator, tee piece and pig tail and buy a new bulkhead regulator and pigtail with a pol termination for the propane bottle.

 

added. Something like this, though you would have to swap the pigtail for a propane pol type.   https://gasproducts.co.uk/gasboat-marine-30mbar-gas-regulator-bulkhead.html

 

while you are in there, if you don’t already have one you could fit a bubble tester.

 

one point I noticed is that a lot of regulators are now suitable for butane and propane with an output pressure of 30mBarr where as propane regulators were formally 37mBarr if my memory is correct.  Current gas cookers etc are probably fine but if you have an old cooker and undersized pipes the cooker burner flame may be a bit smaller.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Chewbacka

[jonathanA]

10 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

 

Looking at the pic again, and I think it's quite possible that the T piece that the regulator is attached to is a standard 20mm fitting! I will try disassemble this and see if it fits a W20 pigtail. If I could just remove the T piece and connect the pigtail hose directly to the regulator, that would be very straightforward.

No I don’t think so as I said I reckon when you take off the T piece you will have a standard POL fitting to go straight into a propane bottle 

A w20 is more likely to connect to your t piece where the current pigtail is, as Alan suggested many posts ago. 

 

For 6 quid I’d give that a go. 

 

I dont believe there is any need to replace the regulator cos it ‘looks bit old’ 

 

 

[alan_fincher]

On 24/01/2019 at 21:13, jonathanA said:

It’s a bit hard to tell from the pics but that looks like a standard regulator with a male pol mated onto some sort of t piece, the left hand side capped off.................

Yes, it looks like there may once have been a second pigtail connected to the other side of the T piece.

 

I'm not totally happy with the look of the "cap" which looks possibly like a galvanised steel part ontothe brass fitting.  This looks unusual in a boat gas setting to be, and maybe a bit of a bodge

 

Technically, I feel a BSS examiner could object that there are more joints than actually necessary to do the job.

 

If it were me, I think I would get a full kit of regulator, chanegover valve and 2 pigtails, and replace everything on to the end of the existing copper.

 

More cost for the bits, but then you can connect to both cylinders, and have a spanner free changeover when the gas runs out at a highly inconvenient time, (which for us seems to be every time the gas runs out!).

 

Change  over valve can either be manual or automatic, threads on here discuss the relative advantages and disadvantages of  each.