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RCD Compliance


Peter009

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16 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

... no idea how to calculate the maximum amount of people at all is there any guidelines that anyone knows about for that 

This is where it gets silly expensive because you have to start buying all the requisite standards. I’m sure someone on here has said something like ‘the number of ‘average’ people who can stand on the gunwhale before the boat heels more than 7 degrees’ or something like that. 

 

Again, the British Marine link gives much explanation. 

Edited by WotEver
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5 hours ago, Peter009 said:

That is really good that you managed to get your head around the requirements for this, do you have any templates that you could share I know you say you wont share your documents which is fair enough but it would be really helpful if you had some sort of template that people could start with as it is a minefield understanding the requirements.  I do have technical knowledge albeit in IT not particularly boats so am adverse to technical documents as that was my living but the requirements are not clear at all not just to me but it appears many others in terms of what documentation is required perhaps I am missing somewhere that this is published

there is no such thing as a 'template' for these documents.   unless you can get a copy of a set (which even then may not be appropriate for your vessel). 

 

the owner's manual is a relatively simple document.   the technical file is anything but.

 

when I did my RCD I found that reading through the requirements made it perfectly clear what was required.    if you don't find it to be clear then I politely suggest that you don't have the necessary experience in producing technical (engineering) documents.

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I've built boats before the RCD and after, never bothered with compliance. Some were hire boats, all have now been sold and nobody asked for any paperwork.

The sooner we stop wasting time with all this foreign bureaucracy the better, it has no relation to whether a boat is suitable or safe for our canals and rivers.

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6 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

I've built boats before the RCD and after, never bothered with compliance. Some were hire boats, all have now been sold and nobody asked for any paperwork.

The sooner we stop wasting time with all this foreign bureaucracy the better, it has no relation to whether a boat is suitable or safe for our canals and rivers.

Agree !

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10 hours ago, Murflynn said:

there is no such thing as a 'template' for these documents.   unless you can get a copy of a set (which even then may not be appropriate for your vessel). 

 

the owner's manual is a relatively simple document.   the technical file is anything but.

 

when I did my RCD I found that reading through the requirements made it perfectly clear what was required.    if you don't find it to be clear then I politely suggest that you don't have the necessary experience in producing technical (engineering) documents.

Producing documents is not an issue the issue is understanding what they are talking about that is relevant to our boat and this EU waste of time bureaucracy in my opinion is designed to waste peoples time and make huge amounts of money for those surveyors that like to act as consultants when in fact you have to do it yourself, for those that can be bothered to give up their life and read all the unnecessary XXrap.  I will produce a document which I was going to do anyway for the boat, and then put a CE stamp on my boat sign a certificate of conformity and that is it, I would challenge them to say my boat is unsafe if it ever came to it and risk a 5000 fine or prison as it is a lot of rubbish and I think a lot of people on this forum agree with that.  Thanks for your help.

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12 hours ago, WotEver said:

Yes I have and yes it does. It doesn’t show you how to lay out the manual but that link you showed me already covers that. 

See that British Marine link, starting on P11. 

 

Thanks for your help with this I will do a manual for the boat which is good practice anyway but not bothering with this waste of time rubbish as not worth the effort would rather have a life !! not selling it anyway so no point cheers

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7 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

I've built boats before the RCD and after, never bothered with compliance. Some were hire boats, all have now been sold and nobody asked for any paperwork.

The sooner we stop wasting time with all this foreign bureaucracy the better, it has no relation to whether a boat is suitable or safe for our canals and rivers.

Complete agreement here. 

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12 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

I've built boats before the RCD and after, never bothered with compliance. Some were hire boats, all have now been sold and nobody asked for any paperwork.

The sooner we stop wasting time with all this foreign bureaucracy the better, it has no relation to whether a boat is suitable or safe for our canals and rivers.

Foreign bureaucracy!! foreign bureaucracy indeed!!! How dare you sir!! It is our wonderful parliament of the eu that says we have to comply and we are all europeans apparently innitt!!

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And the last I heard was that Hampshire Trading standards were the "lead" body charged with enforcing the RCD regulations but when faced with clear breaches seem, to date, washed their hands of it and told boaters to do the legal fight and pay themselves. Typical really, thorw your citizens to the wolves while ensuring thee is no realistic avenue of redress or enforcement.

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15 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Foreign bureaucracy!! foreign bureaucracy indeed!!! How dare you sir!! It is our wonderful parliament of the eu that says we have to comply and we are all europeans apparently innitt!!

 

13 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

And the last I heard was that Hampshire Trading standards were the "lead" body charged with enforcing the RCD regulations but when faced with clear breaches seem, to date, washed their hands of it and told boaters to do the legal fight and pay themselves. Typical really, thorw your citizens to the wolves while ensuring thee is no realistic avenue of redress or enforcement.

 

20 hours ago, WotEver said:

Complete agreement here. 

I agree with all of you what has made me even more in agreement is the fact that a lot of you that have commented on this topic have given me sound advice with the build of the boat in line with safety and the right way to do things with other topics, I take your comments more seriously than EU bureaucracy that have no idea in my opinion what is safe on a boat or what is the right way to build them only canal boat builders and people with knowledge of these sorts of boats really know,  they probably have never even been on a canal boat they are more likely to sit on their million pound yachts at the weekend sipping champagne and laughing at us peasants with their wages !  

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Do I sense some bitterness or resentment in relation to our esteemed law makers on the other side of la Manche? Surely not, we volunteered after all, and our civil service love to enforce the rules as it makes jobs for themselves.

I started to collect documents for my boat with a view to writing a proper manual but in 20 years I've never started and I don't think I'll bother now.

 

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22 hours ago, Peter009 said:

Producing documents is not an issue the issue is understanding what they are talking about that is relevant to our boat and this EU waste of time bureaucracy in my opinion is designed to waste peoples time and make huge amounts of money for those surveyors that like to act as consultants when in fact you have to do it yourself, for those that can be bothered to give up their life and read all the unnecessary XXrap.  I will produce a document which I was going to do anyway for the boat, and then put a CE stamp on my boat sign a certificate of conformity and that is it, I would challenge them to say my boat is unsafe if it ever came to it and risk a 5000 fine or prison as it is a lot of rubbish and I think a lot of people on this forum agree with that.  Thanks for your help.

so you come on a public forum and clearly state that you intend to break the law by putting a CE stamp on the boat.

 

and moreover you do not intend to make any effort to identify what the many Standards actually require.

 

subjective statements about your boat being 'safe' are irrelevant.

 

 

..................   silly billy.

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3 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

so you come on a public forum and clearly state that you intend to break the law by putting a CE stamp on the boat.

 

and moreover you do not intend to make any effort to identify what the many Standards actually require.

 

subjective statements about your boat being 'safe' are irrelevant.

 

 

..................   silly billy.

No condoning, encouraging or decrying.

The Chinese do it all the time..................................................

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8 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

No condoning, encouraging or decrying.

The Chinese do it all the time..................................................

well it's up to them if they want to copy the CE logo, after all they are not subject to UK/EU law.

 

I'm not aware that they put their version of the CE ("China Export") mark on valuable complex products like boats or cars though.

 

 

 

.................  and I would also comment that putting a fraudulous CE plate on a boat undermines the efforts of those individuals and businesses who take the time and trouble to do it properly, which is nothing more than shameful.     By all means ignore the RCD and CE issues at your discretion, but I suggest the OP does not stoop into fraud. 

 

Edited by Murflynn
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On 23/01/2019 at 08:19, Murflynn said:

so you come on a public forum and clearly state that you intend to break the law by putting a CE stamp on the boat.

 

and moreover you do not intend to make any effort to identify what the many Standards actually require.

 

subjective statements about your boat being 'safe' are irrelevant.

 

 

..................   silly billy.

Really so you know I am making no effort and you and accuse me of breaking the law you have no idea how much effort I am going to for my boat and thankfully I dont know you with your attitude to bother to tell you as it quite frankly is none of your business, not sure what your problem is but I suggest you get your facts straight before making accusations that are not true,  Do you actually want to help others or just write bitter posts time after time  trying to start a problem, shame really it seems to me that you are quite bitter but please find someone else to take your bitterness out on as not interested quite sad really,,,,

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On 23/01/2019 at 16:44, Murflynn said:

well it's up to them if they want to copy the CE logo, after all they are not subject to UK/EU law.

 

I'm not aware that they put their version of the CE ("China Export") mark on valuable complex products like boats or cars though.

 

 

 

.................  and I would also comment that putting a fraudulous CE plate on a boat undermines the efforts of those individuals and businesses who take the time and trouble to do it properly, which is nothing more than shameful.     By all means ignore the RCD and CE issues at your discretion, but I suggest the OP does not stoop into fraud. 

 

Absolutely disgusting accusation are you serious !! I am not normally annoyed but you really have crossed the line here, I have no doubt that my boat is safer than yours in every way as I have taken the time to get it built properly and not just write compliance documents because I want to suck up to EU bureaucracy I care more about the safety of my boat and others safety than a document that means nothing without the correct installations.

 

Do not comment on this post any more as you have nothing valuable to add other than insults please stop harassing this post unless you have anything valuable to assist others cant see the point of what you are doing other than trying to cause trouble for no good reason.  Thankfully I dont know you as I would tell you this in person this is not the way to act towards somebody who may well be able to help you one day but would think again based on your attitude !

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3 hours ago, Peter009 said:

Absolutely disgusting accusation are you serious?

I can't see any "accusation" here: perhaps you could explain.

It looks to me as if Murflynn was indeed serious in advising you not to break the law, as so doing might land you in trouble. This seems like sound advice.

Edited by Athy
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On 23/01/2019 at 16:44, Murflynn said:

well it's up to them if they want to copy the CE logo, after all they are not subject to UK/EU law.

 

I'm not aware that they put their version of the CE ("China Export") mark on valuable complex products like boats or cars though.

 

 

 

.................  and I would also comment that putting a fraudulous CE plate on a boat undermines the efforts of those individuals and businesses who take the time and trouble to do it properly, which is nothing more than shameful.     By all means ignore the RCD and CE issues at your discretion, but I suggest the OP does not stoop into fraud. 

 

I would suggest that Trading Standards abject failure to prosecute several so called inland professional boat builders for their flagrant breaches of the RCD undermines the scheme far more comprehensively than anything an individual can do by ignoring the RCD. Any law or regulation is only as effective as its enforcement and as far as I can see for inland boats with many small volume builders the enforcement is ineffective. The RCD may have the best of intentions but until enforced is a failure. I am afraid that I can put no faith or store in the RCD and if I were to ever buy a post RCD inland boat would have rely upon my own powers of observation and investigation simply because, a  presently constituted and enforced, the RCD is pretty much worthless. The BSS has more value as far as it goes.

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This has to be seen as a standard that really is intended for commercial trading legislation. If I was to buy a mass produced GRP sailboat that was made in Morocco it would have to be made to the same standards , manufacturing checks and accompanying paperwork as a similar boat made in the EU. (This is why anything that is made after Brexit will still have to be CE marked if its sold in the EU)  It is really intended to stop cheap and dodgy stuff competing unfairly within the EU market.  It is not just a list of standards like the BSS that you have to 'pass' otherwise a narrowboat which is a funny sort of boat would struggle to pass a lot if you judged it against a barge. It is difficult and expensive to buy copies of the Standards and not all are relevant. If the stuff that goes in the boat complies, engine, pumps, lightbulbs wires etc then you won't go far wrong. If it has a BSS then you have a perfectly ok boat. This is why there is an escape route for self builds. I built my boat to use abroad and tried to fit it out to the RCD, to do so I would have needed some bloke in an office spending a stack of money to sort out the process. In the end I self certified the thing and that is what most people who try to comply do. It is really meant for companies with a huge admin dept and a team of lawyers. Very little of the RCD is much to do with safety or building standards. I understand how you feel but its not worth the bother unless you want to start a company building boats for sale on the open market.

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1 hour ago, Bee said:

This has to be seen as a standard that really is intended for commercial trading legislation. If I was to buy a mass produced GRP sailboat that was made in Morocco it would have to be made to the same standards , manufacturing checks and accompanying paperwork as a similar boat made in the EU. (This is why anything that is made after Brexit will still have to be CE marked if its sold in the EU)  It is really intended to stop cheap and dodgy stuff competing unfairly within the EU market.  It is not just a list of standards like the BSS that you have to 'pass' otherwise a narrowboat which is a funny sort of boat would struggle to pass a lot if you judged it against a barge. It is difficult and expensive to buy copies of the Standards and not all are relevant. If the stuff that goes in the boat complies, engine, pumps, lightbulbs wires etc then you won't go far wrong. If it has a BSS then you have a perfectly ok boat. This is why there is an escape route for self builds. I built my boat to use abroad and tried to fit it out to the RCD, to do so I would have needed some bloke in an office spending a stack of money to sort out the process. In the end I self certified the thing and that is what most people who try to comply do. It is really meant for companies with a huge admin dept and a team of lawyers. Very little of the RCD is much to do with safety or building standards. I understand how you feel but its not worth the bother unless you want to start a company building boats for sale on the open market.

But the RCD would be unnecessary in the majority of cases IF the pother consumer protection legislation was properly enforced without expecting individuals to take legal action and the allowing rouges to go bankrupt to avoid their responsibilities. Anyone who knowingly buys direct from abroad is, to a degree, asking for everything they may or may not get. At present sellers in the UK and those who facilitate the sales of nearly anything know they can pretty much ignore consumer legislation with impunity.

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9 hours ago, Peter009 said:

Absolutely disgusting accusation are you serious !! I am not normally annoyed but you really have crossed the line here, I have no doubt that my boat is safer than yours in every way as I have taken the time to get it built properly and not just write compliance documents because I want to suck up to EU bureaucracy I care more about the safety of my boat and others safety than a document that means nothing without the correct installations.

 

Do not comment on this post any more as you have nothing valuable to add other than insults please stop harassing this post unless you have anything valuable to assist others cant see the point of what you are doing other than trying to cause trouble for no good reason.  Thankfully I dont know you as I would tell you this in person this is not the way to act towards somebody who may well be able to help you one day but would think again based on your attitude !

:tired:

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As an engineer who has spent his working life reading, understanding, and designing equipment to standard, for companies who self-certify CE compliance I don't find it burocratic at all. Former companies I've worked for where large enough to sit in on the writing process, the next a very small OEM, the current a reasonable size SME who builds commercial powerboats. 

 

The standards, many of the them British in origin, are typically reasonable written and informative peer reviewed documents which layout sensible measures to ensure the end product is safe. They make designing safe equipment easier and take a lot of the uncertainty and or guess work out of where draw the line, happy days. 

 

I would discourage forging a CE mark, even with reasonable amount of work on ensuring safe and even compliant design, unless use have made every reasonable effort to apply said mark within the spirit of the game. In this particular case, the vessel appear to be exempt anyway, so what would you?

 

 

Daniel

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10 hours ago, DHutch said:

As an engineer who has spent his working life reading, understanding, and designing equipment to standard, for companies who self-certify CE compliance I don't find it burocratic at all. Former companies I've worked for where large enough to sit in on the writing process, the next a very small OEM, the current a reasonable size SME who builds commercial powerboats. 

 

The standards, many of the them British in origin, are typically reasonable written and informative peer reviewed documents which layout sensible measures to ensure the end product is safe. They make designing safe equipment easier and take a lot of the uncertainty and or guess work out of where draw the line, happy days. 

 

I would discourage forging a CE mark, even with reasonable amount of work on ensuring safe and even compliant design, unless use have made every reasonable effort to apply said mark within the spirit of the game. In this particular case, the vessel appear to be exempt anyway, so what would you?

 

 

Daniel

exactly.  

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