Wondering if this is a good option for newbies?

[Thersil]

So, I've fallen for tve dream about living on a houseboat. In Norway the options are not to my taste, sailboats beeing the best alternative if not buying workingboat shell and diy fixing it up. I'm a little conserned about taking on such a big project, it's costly and I know too little. It feels too overwhelming. I'm also scared of buying the cat in the bag, beeing stuck with a horrible boat.

After seeing a lot of boats I really like the dutch barges done well, they feel spacious,the same with the widebeams too. Stumbled upon something on Ebay, companies that make shells and "sailaway" boats, the interior missing, but insulated and with engine and the mecanics in order..  I think perhaps I could handle building the interior , after doing research and how too's, but I dont know if the engine they provide is a good one, are the shells any good.. ?

My budget is for around 20-30 000 pounds.

In case I opt for something like this, which company do you recommend?  pros/cons to buying a boat in good condition to buying something like this:

In sailaway condition.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAILAWAY-WIDEBEAM-BUILD-SLOT-AVAILABLE-IN-FEBRUARY-nr-London/254054354120?hash=item3b26d1ccc8:g:8CkAAOSwUWtb3bwD

[Boaty Jo]

If you go for 'something like that' you've blown your (upper end) budget by £20k already.

That's before you start on the internals which can easily add another £20k ++.

'Doing the interior' that you mention is not just the woodwork, the expensive bits can be the electrical, gas, heating etc. etc. installations.

 

 

[Thersil]

1 minute ago, Boaty Jo said:

If you go for 'something like that' you've blown your (upper end) budget by £20k already.

That's before you start on the internals which can easily add another £20k ++.

'Doing the interior' that you mention is not just the woodwork, the expensive bits can be the electrical, gas, heating etc. etc. installations.

 

 

Yeah.. The interior, woodwork etc I can manage, but gas and eletrical is an absolute no. With installations what do you mean? Shower and such? 

[LadyG]

What is you total budget?

A narrow boat is really only suited to the canals of E&W imho and you would be advised to stick to those waters, they are Category 4 essentially not "seagoing". A good second hand one is  £40K to £100 K.

 

I had a Kenneth Albinsson 30ft yacht, imho the only type suited to northern waters ie a "blue water" sailing boat, you could buy a good [top spec], like the Albin Ballad one built in the mid seventies for about "£22-25K, a not so "fit" one would be £12-14K and easily cost £10K to bring up to spec. To see how much work a boat involves, see Sail Life on youtube. He has an Albin Ballad, liveaboard, it will be for sale when his other boat is fitted out, it is taking about 5 years and he probably dare not look at his costs. He occasional pays for professional work. His tool budget alone must be well into four figures, several times over.

 

In my eyes, this is a nice little Dutch Barge, a tjalk, suited to river estuaries, big rivers and probably dutch canals [out of my depth here] https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/barges-tjalk/587452. , £24K , ask for 10% cash discount and put 10K aside for the contingency fund. expect to fork out £3-5K in year one to make it habitable all year round, and £1-2/3K pa to keep it maintained.

caveat emptor

Edited January 18, 2019 by LadyG
caveat emptor

[Athy]

Quite apart from budget considerations, I would never trust a company which publishes only mobile phone numbers. You don't know where they are or even whether they really exist.

[Nut]

15 minutes ago, Athy said:

Quite apart from budget considerations, I would never trust a company which publishes only mobile phone numbers. You don't know where they are or even whether they really exist.

exactly this you would have to be stark staring to do business with a firm that has no landline advertised , do they even have premises that have been in situ for many a year? have you managed to

find reviews from other customers etc I would also ask the local trading standards about them. Once your money has gone its usually gone . 

[LadyG]

29 minutes ago, Athy said:

Quite apart from budget considerations, I would never trust a company which publishes only mobile phone numbers. You don't know where they are or even whether they really exist.

Building slots are usually £500, with 6 to 18 months before forecast start date, at which time you will be expected to show good faith with the first [of many] stage payments. Fingers crossed that the firm stays afloat until that glorious day when your appointed surveyor signs it off, you get your paperwork, pay a few more £K, buy a licence turn a key /  press a button, and discover if the prop stays on when the prop shaft turns, assuming the engine has been installed correctly, and is connected to the hull.

If [lol], there are teething problems, best to shelter in the nearest marine til you have run out of cash/patience, then pass it to someone else. Oh Happy Days.

Edited January 18, 2019 by LadyG

[Sea Dog]

Thersil, I wish you well but I don't think you have the budget to achieve what you want with your current level of knowledge.  Your price point means you are looking in an area where there are a lot of bad boats and plenty of shady deals.  You need considerable skill to avoid a bad buy in this area, so you either need a bigger budget so you can buy a good boat with either the right hired help or a friend who knows boats, or delay your dream a while until you've done a lot of research and know exactly what you're looking for.  The Dutch Barge Association website might be a good place to start bearing in mind both the type of craft you seek and the broader European view.  You will get some good advice here too though, so do stay with us too. Welcome aboard.

 

[Athy]

17 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Building slots are usually £500, with 6 to 18 months before forecast start date, at which time you will be expected to show good faith with the first [of many] stage payments. Fingers crossed that the firm stays afloat until that glorious day when your appointed surveyor signs it off, you get your paperwork, pay a few more £K, buy a licence turn a key /  press a button, and discover if the prop stays on when the prop shaft turns, assuming the engine has been installed correctly, and is connected to the hull.

If [lol], there are teething problems, best to shelter in the nearest marine til you have run out of cash/patience, then pass it to someone else. Oh Happy Days.

Many a true word spoken in jest. When we were taking our last new boat home, its gearbox separated from its engine in Hungerford lock. Luckily it was built by a reputable company, who had used what they thought was a competent fitter to do the engine installation. They sent a bloke along who really was, and the problem was quickly sorted. That company (Devizes Narrowboat Builders) had a proper yard and office - had they been fly-by-nights with only a mobile phone we could have had a longer, and more expensive, stay in that lock.

[Movin' on]

6 hours ago, Thersil said:

So, I've fallen for tve dream about living on a houseboat. In Norway the options are not to my taste, sailboats beeing the best alternative if not buying workingboat shell and diy fixing it up. I'm a little conserned about taking on such a big project, it's costly and I know too little. It feels too overwhelming. I'm also scared of buying the cat in the bag, beeing stuck with a horrible boat.

After seeing a lot of boats I really like the dutch barges done well, they feel spacious,the same with the widebeams too. Stumbled upon something on Ebay, companies that make shells and "sailaway" boats, the interior missing, but insulated and with engine and the mecanics in order..  I think perhaps I could handle building the interior , after doing research and how too's, but I dont know if the engine they provide is a good one, are the shells any good.. ?

My budget is for around 20-30 000 pounds.

In case I opt for something like this, which company do you recommend?  pros/cons to buying a boat in good condition to buying something like this:

In sailaway condition.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAILAWAY-WIDEBEAM-BUILD-SLOT-AVAILABLE-IN-FEBRUARY-nr-London/254054354120?hash=item3b26d1ccc8:g:8CkAAOSwUWtb3bwD

Best advice IMHO is DONT, DONT, DONT.

 

Look for a complete good used tried and tested boat which can be bought for 90% of your maximum budget so you have a reserve for the inevitable issues/upgrades that are needed then you might be getting close to living a dream and not a nightmare   .

Edited January 18, 2019 by Halsey

[Thersil]

10 hours ago, Boaty Jo said:

If you go for 'something like that' you've blown your (upper end) budget by £20k already.

That's before you start on the internals which can easily add another £20k ++.

'Doing the interior' that you mention is not just the woodwork, the expensive bits can be the electrical, gas, heating etc. etc. installations.

 

 

Yeah, I kind of thought about that, but figured I buy stuff used and upcycle stuff I find, get cheap and for free. As long as everything regarding electrics, gas(I will never touch) and other installments  are done by professionals. But you are probably very right. I'm a single gal With a cat and no experiance doing this, but I got so inspired by a girl who bought a Dutch barge for 18 000 pounds and though she got Professionals to help her she ended up doing a beautiful and upcycled boat by her self. But it might be a bit of the romantic dream and not realistic for me.

6 hours ago, Halsey said:

Best advice IMHO is DONT, DONT, DONT.

 

Look for a complete good used tried and tested boat which can be bought for 90% of your maximum budget so you have a reserve for the inevitable issues/upgrades that are needed then you might be getting close to living a dream and not a nightmare   .

Thanks so much for the advice! I don't really know what a good boat is though What are big no no's? I'm imagining that I eventually will learn the basics, but I think that repairs, having the boat looked over I would have to utsource to People With skill and knowledge. 

[Thersil]

7 hours ago, Athy said:

Many a true word spoken in jest. When we were taking our last new boat home, its gearbox separated from its engine in Hungerford lock. Luckily it was built by a reputable company, who had used what they thought was a competent fitter to do the engine installation. They sent a bloke along who really was, and the problem was quickly sorted. That company (Devizes Narrowboat Builders) had a proper yard and office - had they been fly-by-nights with only a mobile phone we could have had a longer, and more expensive, stay in that lock.

Wow, thanks a lot for that advice, as a Norwegian I didn't catch that it was only a cellphone and I have no clue what is considered a respectable firm. An d doing payments along the way and perhaps the Company goes bankrupt in the meantime…. A big no no... That would be a nightmare.. Scratching my head With a shell half finished..

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, Thersil said:

Wow, thanks a lot for that advice, as a Norwegian I didn't catch that it was only a cellphone and I have no clue what is considered a respectable firm. An d doing payments along the way and perhaps the Company goes bankrupt in the meantime…. A big no no... That would be a nightmare.. Scratching my head With a shell half finished..

Most boatbuilders are, I think, honest artisans. But horror stories HAVE happened: company going broke with the boat unfinished (and sometimes resurfacing with a different name soon afterwards), even at least one case where the builder sold the same boat to several different people.

[Thersil]

7 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Thersil, I wish you well but I don't think you have the budget to achieve what you want with your current level of knowledge.  Your price point means you are looking in an area where there are a lot of bad boats and plenty of shady deals.  You need considerable skill to avoid a bad buy in this area, so you either need a bigger budget so you can buy a good boat with either the right hired help or a friend who knows boats, or delay your dream a while until you've done a lot of research and know exactly what you're looking for.  The Dutch Barge Association website might be a good place to start bearing in mind both the type of craft you seek and the broader European view.  You will get some good advice here too though, so do stay with us too. Welcome aboard.

 

Thank you so much, I don't mind delaying the dream. It's just hard saving up the money on a little disability pension 20 000 Nkr before tax, That is about 2000 pounds a month before tax. I'm considering taking on a loan, but boatloans have 6-7 % interest, so i'm not sure about that either.  I don't own and pay a lot in rent. What is a good Budget for a good boat?
Thank you for the advice, I will seek up the Dutch Barge Association. I'm not leaving you at all, You have all been so Nice and give good advice to a newbie  
 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Thersil

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, Thersil said:

Wow, thanks a lot for that advice, as a Norwegian I didn't catch that it was only a cellphone and I have no clue what is considered a respectable firm. An d doing payments along the way and perhaps the Company goes bankrupt in the meantime…. A big no no... That would be a nightmare.. Scratching my head With a shell half finished..

YOU will have nothing, you will be a creditor, a minor one at that.............

[Thersil]

4 minutes ago, Athy said:

Most boatbuilders are, I think, honest artisans. But horror stories HAVE happened: company going broke with the boat unfinished (and sometimes resurfacing with a different name soon afterwards), even at least one case where the builder sold the same boat to several different people.

Yeah, and I would like to avoid it becoming a horrorstory. A foreign newbie that have no experiance is easily fooled.

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

YOU will have nothing, you will be a creditor, a minor one at that.............

Yeah, better off With a boat that needs a lot of work than having absolutely nothing, but I hope to avoid that too..

[stegra]

8 hours ago, Athy said:

Quite apart from budget considerations, I would never trust a company which publishes only mobile phone numbers. You don't know where they are or even whether they really exist.

Just having a landline number is no guarantee of a business's standing. I have a local (Bristol) landline number and two 0800 numbers. However I don't have a landline, or indeed, an address to have one. They're all directed to my mobile. I've no doubt that having these numbers gives added confidence to prospective customers. 

[Thersil]

8 hours ago, LadyG said:

What is you total budget?

A narrow boat is really only suited to the canals of E&W imho and you would be advised to stick to those waters, they are Category 4 essentially not "seagoing". A good second hand one is  £40K to £100 K.

 

I had a Kenneth Albinsson 30ft yacht, imho the only type suited to northern waters ie a "blue water" sailing boat, you could buy a good [top spec], like the Albin Ballad one built in the mid seventies for about "£22-25K, a not so "fit" one would be £12-14K and easily cost £10K to bring up to spec. To see how much work a boat involves, see Sail Life on youtube. He has an Albin Ballad, liveaboard, it will be for sale when his other boat is fitted out, it is taking about 5 years and he probably dare not look at his costs. He occasional pays for professional work. His tool budget alone must be well into four figures, several times over.

 

In my eyes, this is a nice little Dutch Barge, a tjalk, suited to river estuaries, big rivers and probably dutch canals [out of my depth here] https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/barges-tjalk/587452. , £24K , ask for 10% cash discount and put 10K aside for the contingency fund. expect to fork out £3-5K in year one to make it habitable all year round, and £1-2/3K pa to keep it maintained.

caveat emptor

Per now about 20 000 pounds, but that is why I'm asking. But thanks for the advice. Sail life will be watched, but due to space, lack of headroom and the cramped feeling I would not consider a sailing boat. I have gotten advice from Norwegians that if I want to liveaboard in Norway a sailboat is the best option, but I would not like it, I like to have windows and light and feel like it is a home, that feeling I get when viewing the different canalboats, they feel more like homes and feel more spacious even though they are narrow and small. Besides my cat wouldn't like a sailboat I imagine Felix walking around on a canalboat  

I don't have to live in Norway so it does not need to be seaworthy, but a riverbarge is not a dumb idea. I loved the little barge you linked to. I would need a little work to make it liveable and is somewhat within my budget after saving some more. As a Norwegian, what do you mean by contingency fund? Like a fund for repairs and such? We have as I know of one Canal in Norway, The Telemark Canal, but I think it is deep water/river. So if I were to buy one and work on it and live Close by while doing so that would perhaps be doable with a tjalk of some kind. And I would like to cruise the Canals in the Netherlands, France and Germany too, so if that is possible... Yeah, I could most definetly consider a tjalk. :)

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, stegra said:

Just having a landline number is no guarantee of a business's standing. I have a local (Bristol) landline number and two 0800 numbers. However I don't have a landline, or indeed, an address to have one. They're all directed to my mobile. I've no doubt that having these numbers gives added confidence to prospective customers. 

I see what you mean, but your last sentence is undoubtedly true.

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, Thersil said:

a sailboat is the best option, but I would not like it, I like to have windows and light and feel like it is a home,

I know it is a bit above your budget, but I have a sail boat and its light, airy and quite homely, I am 1mt 85 cm and can easily stand up (even jump in the air).

Don't discount sailing boats there are many options.

have a look at a Motor-sailor they tend to be more like motor boast that can sail, rather than sailing boats than can motor.

 

My boat :

 

 

 

 

 

[Thersil]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know it is a bit above your budget, but I have a sail boat and its light, airy and quite homely, I am 1mt 85 cm and can easily stand up (even jump in the air).

Don't discount sailing boats there are many options.

have a look at a Motor-sailor they tend to be more like motor boast that can sail, rather than sailing boats than can motor.

 

My boat :

 

 

 

 

 

You have a lovely boat! ❤️ And yes it is light and airy and probably way out of my Budget Do you live on it and can you cruise the Canals With it?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just one example of a motor sailor at around your budget.

 

https://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/Sailboats/-custom-built-steel-motor-sailor/244234

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Thersil said:

You have a lovely boat! ❤️ And yes it is light and airy and probably way out of my Budget Do you live on it and can you cruise the Canals With it?

No it will not fit on any of the UK Canals. (it is a Blue-Water, Ocean going vessel)

23 foot wide and 80 feet high mast.

 

You will not find many non-UK designed boats that will work on the UK canals as the depth is generally less than 3 feet and the width on the 'narrow canals' is less than 7 feet.

 

My other boat is a 14 foot wide Motor Cruiser and again that is not something that I can easily take onto the canals (width, height and depth problems)

 

If you look at something like the Dutch Barges, they are fine for our Rivers and SOME of the canals but you could by no means 'explore the whole of the UK'

 

If you decided to go for something like the Motor Sailor I linked to it would open up not only the UK Rivers but the 1000's of miles (English miles - not Norwegian miles) of coastal cruising as well.

[Thersil]

 

 

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No it will not fit on any of the UK Canals. (it is a Blue-Water, Ocean going vessel)

23 foot wide and 80 feet high mast.

 

You will not find many non-UK designed boats that will work on the UK canals as the depth is generally less than 3 feet and the width on the 'narrow canals' is less than 7 feet.

 

My other boat is a 14 foot wide Motor Cruiser and again that is not something that I can easily take onto the canals (width, height and depth problems)

 

If you look at something like the Dutch Barges, they are fine for our Rivers and SOME of the canals but you could by no means 'explore the whole of the UK'

 

If you decided to go for something like the Motor Sailor I linked to it would open up not only the UK Rivers but the 1000's of miles (English miles - not Norwegian miles) of coastal cruising as well.

Hmm, well you have certainly given me food for thought, and perhaps a motorcruiser would fit more with my other longterm ideas as well. Which is buying a property in Portugal and making it my homecountry. Cheap country to live in and no tax for 10 years sounds Sweet when living on a small disability pension.  How are the maintance costs? It says in the advert that it is possible to cruise the French Canals With, are they wider than the English ones? If you know? 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Thersil said:

 

 

Hmm, well you have certainly given me food for thought, and perhaps a motorcruiser would fit more with my other longterm ideas as well. Which is buying a property in Portugal and making it my homecountry. Cheap country to live in and no tax for 10 years sounds Sweet when living on a small disability pension.  How are the maintance costs? It says in the advert that it is possible to cruise the French Canals With, are they wider than the English ones? If you know? 

The French, Dutch & Belgium canals are 'proper' canals designed for big commercial freight and barges (BIG BIG ones)

The English canals are (jokingly) known as 'muddy ditches' (gjørmete grøft)

 

You can maybe get an idea of the size from this photograph (the boat is 7 feet wide - and the tunnel ahead is 9 feet high)

 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Alan de Enfield