Sterling Alternator no output

[regginald]

WotEver

 

Do you know how i can check if it has an internal regulator and if not which one i would need? I am happy with the a to b and it has served me well for a year now even though my lucas alternator keep trying to F*** me in the A*** by going to over volts eventually even with temp sensors on connected to A to B which i can see on remote as being about 78 degrees C max after 3 hrs running.

I really like the a to b as it shows me battery temps and alternator temps and current of both banks and volts of both banks and time running on the remote in my living space while engine and charger and batteries are all at the other end in my engine room.

 

[GUMPY]

Normally when alternators have the field wire added it is in addition to the internal regulators. The PDAR requires the original regulator to be working in order to function correctly.

Have a look at the PDAR fitting instructions in the link I posted yesterday.

So if you have voltage on your excite wire and B+ I would think your alternator is goosed.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Loddon

[regginald]

I will look now, but this is what i thought originally but when i s[poke to charles sterling this morning when he finally rolled up to work he said it would not work without the PDAR as they modified it by taking out the regulator but i get the feelinhg they just bypassed it or something

 

thanks

 

[GUMPY]

PDAR.pdf

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

PDAR.pdf

See step 8 on page 7. 

 

If you have batt+ on B+, batt- to the case/engine, excitation to D+, it should work. If it doesn’t then it’s faulty. 

 

Looking at the instructions all you should have have to do with the white wire is tape it up out of the way. 

[regginald]

I have read through the instructions for different products a few timed think the regulator has been taken out of my alternator as suggested by charles sterling as it was supposed to be sold with the PDAR external regulator as a bundle and they modified the alternator so it would be easy to install and nobody would have to take the alternator apart or do any soldering just connect to the wire they soldered on.

[Tony Brooks]

47 minutes ago, regginald said:

Tony Brooks

 

I isolated the A to B and just wired up the alternator to starter battery and connected the field to the white wire which is the field wire on alternator but it doesnt fire up even at full rpm and with another field wire onto D+, i have tried everything but the alternator has been modified by sterling to be part of a bundle containing the external PDAR regulator, i am wondering how to convert it back to its original state so it will run.

 

Thanks for all your input on the alternator threads here i have learned a lot from you despite reading lots elsewhere where it gets too confusing

The white wire is almost certainly for connecting an external regulator that will override the internal one at times. Unless Sterling have done something unconventional the white wire needs insulating and leaving disconnected. The A to B is not an external regulator - its a lets try clever (or not so clever) electronics box that tries to force the alternator to maximum output and then messes with charging voltages.

 

As I have no access to Sterling technical diagrams I have no certain idea of what they have done to the alternator save put their sticker on it and add the white wire. Your comment about negative regulator very strongly implies it is just an ordinary machine sensed alternator with added white wire so with the white wire disconnecte4d and insulated the alternator should act as any other 9 diode machine sensed alternator and run with its own internal voltage regulator. You need to nothing to convert it back. Just do not connect the white wire.

 

A lesson on external regulators for you like the PDAR. Once the voltage regulator of an alternator starts working the charging voltage is locked at a pre-set level. This means that as the batteries charge up the charging current falls to a low level after a hour or two. The batteries will be nowhere near fully charged. The only way to get more current into the batteries is to boost the voltage but if you overdo this you will destroy the batteries. The alternator's own regulator is set to be safe for many hours of running where as a boosted voltage will not be. During the first stage of charging that we will loosely call bulk charging the charging current will be close to maximum and the voltage will be low. This sill go one for half an hour or so (typically). Neither the PDAR nor the internal regulator can do anything at this stage but BOTH will be turned on and trying to boost the charging voltage. they can not succeed. Both regulators are wired in parallel. Once the regulated voltage is reached the internal regulator starts to limit voltage BUT the external one is still trying to boost the voltage so the voltage is boosted causing the internal regulator to shut down. After a period of time the charging voltage will reach the setting for the PDAR so the PDAR regulates the voltage at a higher level than the internal regulator setting. This goes on for a period of time until the PDAR's  firmware says its not safe to continue with the higher voltage so typically the PDAR would shut down and leave the alternators own regulator to do its job. Now there is one got-you in that Sterling just might have severed the connection between the rotor and the regulator so the white wire plus PDAR is the only thing that can regulate the voltage. If they have done this then the alternator needs opening up and the connection reinstated UNLESS they also removed the internal regulator. This is one reason I have asked, twice, for a photo of the back of the alternator. It is also why you have been advised to ask Sterling.

 

If the regulator has been removed or the internal connection cut then if the PDAR fails you would get no output but with the internal regulator in place and connected the internal regulator would take over and do its job.

 

I have no way of knowing what Sterling have done but I would be a little concerned if they have cut the internal connection and removed the regulator.

1 hour ago, regginald said:

Dr Bob

 

i purchased the A to B to go with the 2 A127s which were not doing what i needed, i purchased the remote later so i could then check amps and do the other things that the remote does. the a127s still kept breaking and were just not reliable and they killed my last battery bank of 4 80Ah batteries as they ran at 30Volts for 2 hours and i swore never to use them again without the a to b and remote that shut down and protect the batteries, i spent 2000 on 8 240 Ah AGM batteries and need to take care of them so i purchased the 200Amp alternator to put on it as i have had enough of those crappy lucas things.

 

Do you know why English men prefer warm beer??? Its because Lucas make fridges too )))

NO the A127 when used correctly are not particularly unreliable but any alternator but can be when misused. I submit you misused them by trying to force them to run at maximum output for hours on end. When your new alternator keeps snapping and wearing belts are you going to blame it or blame yourself for overloading the belts?

 

You have a lot to learn about the use of electricity when away from the mains, battery changing & alternators. If your monitor give percentage of charge or Amp hours remaining those readings will almost certainly be ever increasingly whopping great lies that will encourage you to destroy your very expensive battery bank by undercharging.

 

12 minutes ago, regginald said:

I have read through the instructions for different products a few timed think the regulator has been taken out of my alternator as suggested by charles sterling as it was supposed to be sold with the PDAR external regulator as a bundle and they modified the alternator so it would be easy to install and nobody would have to take the alternator apart or do any soldering just connect to the wire they soldered on.

So you now need a regulator and undo Sterling's butchery but without knowing the make and model of the basic alternator no one can help.

[GUMPY]

34 minutes ago, WotEver said:

See step 8 on page 7. 

 

If you have batt+ on B+, batt- to the case/engine, excitation to D+, it should work. If it doesn’t then it’s faulty. 

 

Looking at the instructions all you should have have to do with the white wire is tape it up out of the way. 

Indeed

Unless CS has butchered the alternator in some odd way

Its Broken with a capital F

 

[WotEver]

41 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Indeed

Unless CS has butchered the alternator in some odd way...

Well, one would assume that Charles knows his own products and according to OP he said

... 

that his alternators will work with nothing connected to D+ as long as there is a b+ and field wire it will run but said my field wire coming out of alternator needs to beconnected to PDAR field to make it run.

 

So my guess is that the internal reg is either removed completely or the link is cut to connect the field wire. If the latter, then it should be an easy fix. If the former then I think shelling out £138 for the PDAR is the easiest way forward. 

[GUMPY]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Well, one would assume that Charles knows his own products and according to OP he said

 

 

So my guess is that the internal reg is either removed completely or the link is cut to connect the field wire. If the latter, then it should be an easy fix. If the former then I think shelling out £138 for the PDAR is the easiest way forward. 

However unless CS  has changed the way it works the PDAR raises the charging voltage to 14.8v  then after a preset time ceases to do that and drops back to the internal regulator. No internal regulator no "float" voltage.

[WotEver]

Just now, Loddon said:

However unless CS  has changed the way it works the PDAR raises the charging voltage to 14.8v  then after a preset time ceases to do that and drops back to the internal regulator. No internal regulator no "float" voltage.

Hmmm... good point. I guess it’s take the back off the alternator and have a look time...

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

As I have no access to Sterling technical diagrams I have no certain idea of what they have done to the alternator save put their sticker on it and add the white wire. Your comment about

NO the A127 when used correctly are not particularly unreliable but any alternator but can be when misused. I submit you misused them by trying to force them to run at maximum output for hours on end. When your new alternator keeps snapping and wearing belts are you going to blame it or blame yourself for overloading the belts?

 

 

Mmmmm. Interesting. 2 A127 alternators being fed into the Sterling AtoB.

I was a big supporter of the AtoB from my previous boat and got one for the nb when I found the domestic 90A alternator only giving me 13.9v max. The engine 50A alternator was fine for charging the start battery at 14.2V.

I ran the AtoB for around 3 months with both alternators wired through the AtoB as Sterling advise before I found that the 50A alt was putting out the 'first 50A' of charge and then the 90A providing the rest ....ie on start up, with the domestic bank at 75% SoC, the 50A put out 50A and the 90A put out 10A ....60A total. After a few mins as the current reduced, it was only the 90A that reduced until the total current was less than 50A then the 50A which was still working flat out, then started to reduce. I called Sterling and they said yes, that will happen, you  cant run 2 alternators if they have voltages of 14.2V and 13.9V. WHAT!!!!!!!!

Sounds like the OP has had a similar problem with one of his alternators at a higher voltage and taking all the load, therefore burning out.

My solution is to just have the 50A on the start batteries and the 90A to the AtoB to the domestic. No problems now with good charging except the AtoB skips into float too soon.

My advice, dont use an AtoB with 2 alternators like Sterling say you can (in the literature) and cant (on the phone) do.

[regginald]

I think its ok if you use a relay and if both are the  same alternator

[Dr Bob]

2 minutes ago, regginald said:

I think its ok if you use a relay and if both are the  same alternator

Were you wiring both your A127 alternators into the AtoB to the centre stud with then two separate wires going from the AtoB (the outputs) to the starter battery and domestic bank as per the Sterling instructions?

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

dont use an AtoB with 2 alternators like Sterling say you can (in the literature) and cant (on the phone) do.

Well, you can, but it’s not simple.

 

Forgetting the A to B for the moment, if you parallel two alternators then they will both output their maximum power if the load demands it. At only 25% DoD your batteries weren’t calling for that much, so the two alternators shared the charging current between them. It just so happened in your case that because the two alternators had such differing characteristics that the smaller of the two carried most of the burden. Adding the AtoB doesn’t change what happens but will exaggerate it somewhat. Had your two alternators been identical (or at least much closer, electrically speaking) then they would have shared the load more evenly. 

 

For your setup, having the AtoB on the larger alternator feeding the domestic bank is the best setup. Particularly as you never discharge very deeply. 

8 minutes ago, regginald said:

I think its ok if you use a relay and if both are the  same alternator

You don’t really need a relay except to keep the engine and domestic bank separate when they’re not on charge. It’s not to help share the load. 

[Dr Bob]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Well, you can, but it’s not simple.

 

Forgetting the A to B for the moment, if you parallel two alternators then they will both output their maximum power if the load demands it. At only 25% DoD your batteries weren’t calling for that much, so the two alternators shared the charging current between them. It just so happened in your case that because the two alternators had such differing characteristics that the smaller of the two carried most of the burden. Adding the AtoB doesn’t change what happens but will exaggerate it somewhat. Had your two alternators been identical (or at least much closer, electrically speaking) then they would have shared the load more evenly. 

 

For your setup, having the AtoB on the larger alternator feeding the domestic bank is the best setup. Particularly as you never discharge very deeply. 

Yes, but Sterling dont say that in their bumf. If I had not had a infrequent red thermometer, I wouldnt have noticed and burnt out my 50A alternator as it would have done 95% of my charging duties with the 90A doing virtually nothing. Intstructions for operating kit that costs £300 to replace needs to be muppet proof.

You can only use two alternators to feed a Sterling AtoB if their output voltages are similar. I dont know what similar means but it doesnt mean a difference of 0.3V. I needed to know that when I bought the AtoB. I'm reasonably au fait with 12v electrics but no wonder people with 2 alternators into the AtoB have problems.

They are great pieces of kit for a single alternator. Sterling need to tell people what they are buying.

[dccruiser]

I also have a sterling alternator (145amp) but i bought it together with a PDAR pro reg DW and also a remote panel along with 2 temperature sensors which were supplied with the PDAR , one to my alternator and one to my batteries, I also have my original A127 70amp engine alternator running in parallel ... I wired it all in a couple of years ago , but do remember and have just double checked on Sterlings site he expressly says check the alternator for an output before connecting the PDAR ... from what i could gather all he had done was added the white field wire to make it easier for a non electrical bod to fit a PDAR as if you fit one to any other alternator you have to find the "live" brush and connect a wire to it as i had done on a previous boat I fitted a PDAR to .... one of the selling points of the PDAR is that if it fails it reverts your alternator back to the standard regulator so i cant see any reason why Sterling would sell an alternator PDAR package where if the PDAR fails you have no charging so I suggest you either strip the alternator to confirm there is a regulator built in and wired and remove the field wire or take the alternator to one of the alternator and starter motor repairers and get it checked ... I did have one with no output a few years back I stripped and found one of the carbon brushes had seized in its housing! .... long shot but worth checking.

 

As for Charles Sterling , I have spoke to him on several occasions over the years and have always found him most helpful, as for his equipment , i have a sterling PSW 3kw inverter, a 60amp ultra charger with remote a 32amp auto changeover switch on the boat and a B2B and 2.5Kw Pure sine combi in my motorhome oh and a A2B in my van/mobile workshop and never had an issue with any of it, used sterling for years on my boats and always will as in my experience its no less reliable than victron or mastervolt and a damn sight cheaper ...  but each to their own!

 

Rick

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, dccruiser said:

I also have a sterling alternator (145amp) but i bought it together with a PDAR pro reg DW and also a remote panel along with 2 temperature sensors which were supplied with the PDAR , one to my alternator and one to my batteries, I also have my original A127 70amp engine alternator running in parallel ... I wired it all in a couple of years ago , but do remember and have just double checked on Sterlings site he expressly says check the alternator for an output before connecting the PDAR ... from what i could gather all he had done was added the white field wire to make it easier for a non electrical bod to fit a PDAR as if you fit one to any other alternator you have to find the "live" brush and connect a wire to it as i had done on a previous boat I fitted a PDAR to .... one of the selling points of the PDAR is that if it fails it reverts your alternator back to the standard regulator so i cant see any reason why Sterling would sell an alternator PDAR package where if the PDAR fails you have no charging so I suggest you either strip the alternator to confirm there is a regulator built in and wired and remove the field wire or take the alternator to one of the alternator and starter motor repairers and get it checked ... I did have one with no output a few years back I stripped and found one of the carbon brushes had seized in its housing! .... long shot but worth checking.

 

As for Charles Sterling , I have spoke to him on several occasions over the years and have always found him most helpful, as for his equipment , i have a sterling PSW 3kw inverter, a 60amp ultra charger with remote a 32amp auto changeover switch on the boat and a B2B and 2.5Kw Pure sine combi in my motorhome oh and a A2B in my van/mobile workshop and never had an issue with any of it, used sterling for years on my boats and always will as in my experience its no less reliable than victron or mastervolt and a damn sight cheaper ...  but each to their own!

 

Rick

 

One reason is that removing the inbuilt regulator would allow the PDAR to set a true float voltage  if Sterling felt that was required. With the internal regulator the PDAR may try to set 13.6V or some such but in inbuilt regulator would simply override that setting. I agree the OP needs to get a look inside the alternator because his reluctance to produce a photo I doubt we can be much more help.

 

 

On the point of the A127s

 

My guess is that the OP was running them  at maximum output for long periods without adequate cooling. If so he may hit the same problem with his new alternator. Was he running the engine fast enough to allow the alternator fans to work adequately, is the engine area adequately ventilated to keep the ambient temperature down with forced ventilation if required and so on.

 

I am still wondering how an A to B that sits between alternator and batteries on the B+ line can allow 30 volts from an alternator to get to the batteries without showing a warning and hopefully shutting the charge down. Could this be a faulty A to B?

[dccruiser]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

One reason is that removing the inbuilt regulator would allow the PDAR to set a true float voltage  if Sterling felt that was required. With the internal regulator the PDAR may try to set 13.6V or some such but in inbuilt regulator would simply override that setting. I agree the OP needs to get a look inside the alternator because his reluctance to produce a photo I doubt we can be much more help.

I see your point Tony, but i am sure when i installed mine the alternator showed an output before i did the final connections to the PDAR and as the PDAR is designed to work on any alternator with the addition of a field wire I couldnt see a valid reason to remove the charging capability if the PDAR fails or cuts out , especially as he sells it based on the fact if it goes faulty it will revert back to the standard regulator charging ... the only other reason to interfere with the regulator is possibly to change it for one that is more in tune with the PDAR as modern alternators negate the need for an external regulator.

Quote

On the point of the A127s

 

My guess is that the OP was running them  at maximum output for long periods without adequate cooling. If so he may hit the same problem with his new alternator. Was he running the engine fast enough to allow the alternator fans to work adequately, is the engine area adequately ventilated to keep the ambient temperature down with forced ventilation if required and so on.

 

I am still wondering how an A to B that sits between alternator and batteries on the B+ line can allow 30 volts from an alternator to get to the batteries without showing a warning and hopefully shutting the charge down. Could this be a faulty A to B?

Couldnt agree more Tony ... My A2B also has the temp sensors for batteries and alternator as standard, so if either gets hot it shuts down ... It achieves its increased charging rate by reducing the alternator voltage as i am sure you know, so if it was allowing high voltages to the batteries it may well be the culprit and could well be responsible for the failed alternators along with the previously failed batteries.

 

If the items were bought within the last 12 months then surely they are warranted.

Rick

Edited January 10, 2019 by dccruiser

[GUMPY]

27 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

One reason is that removing the inbuilt regulator would allow the PDAR to set a true float voltage  if Sterling felt that was required. With the internal regulator the PDAR may try to set 13.6V or some such but in inbuilt regulator would simply override that setting. I agree the OP needs to get a look inside the alternator because his reluctance to produce a photo I doubt we can be much more help.

Please read post #60

The PDAR needs the  internal regulator to function correctly as it has no "float" voltage capability.

 

 

[Boater Sam]

3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Please read post #60

The PDAR needs the  internal regulator to function correctly as it has no "float" voltage capability.

 

 

Seconded. A standard PDAR will need the regulator to be inthe alternator and in working order.

If this alternator is connected up as just an alternator without any ancillary bits, it should charge. I would fit it, ignore all the wiring, take a + feed to B+ and a 5w bulb from B+ to D+. If then it fails to charge its faulty.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

Seconded. A standard PDAR will need the regulator to be inthe alternator and in working order.

If this alternator is connected up as just an alternator without any ancillary bits, it should charge. I would fit it, ignore all the wiring, take a + feed to B+ and a 5w bulb from B+ to D+. If then it fails to charge its faulty.

Said several times already. Most recently in post #55. If you didn’t have half the site on ignore you’d know this. 

[Tony Brooks]

14 hours ago, regginald said:

I will look now, but this is what i thought originally but when i s[poke to charles sterling this morning when he finally rolled up to work he said it would not work without the PDAR as they modified it by taking out the regulator but i get the feelinhg they just bypassed it or something

 

thanks

 

The above is about as definitive as we can get at this stage so whatever any of us may think the above is straight from the horses mouth. I think the PDAR is basically software driven so if it is sold in a bundle with an alternator Sterling MIGHT (and might not) reprogram it to provide a true float voltage. There is no way a modern 14.5+V volt internal regulator can give a true float voltage.

 

 

[Boater Sam]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The above is about as definitive as we can get at this stage so whatever any of us may think the above is straight from the horses mouth. I think the PDAR is basically software driven so if it is sold in a bundle with an alternator Sterling MIGHT (and might not) reprogram it to provide a true float voltage. There is no way a modern 14.5+V volt internal regulator can give a true float voltage.

 

 

Possible but then the PDAR would have to be in a distinctly labeled box as it is no longer a PDAR and as they are sold as seperates I can't see that this is the case.

In any case wiring it in with just a bulb and a length of wire will prove it or otherwise.

[Tony Brooks]

If we assume the info from Sterling via the OP is correct then there is a way of checking the alternator but care will be needed. It also relies upon the label saying negative regulator and the warning lamp not being an LED or grain of wheat type bulb.

 

With the white cable connected to battery negative (B- or alternator case) then if it has an internal regulator it will be shorted out (as the PDAR does) so with D+ fed from a warning lamp and B+ properly connected the system should be ready to charge but without any voltage control.

 

Put a  voltmeter across the battery B+ is connected to.

 

Turn on the ignition - the warning lamp should come on. If it does not then the most likely fault is alternator brush contact or incorrect warning lamp wiring.

 

If it does then disconnect the white wire and the warning lamp should go out. If it does then reconnect the white wire.

 

Now start the engine without revving it, keep an eye on the warning lamp and voltage. The lamp will probably dim but if not very gently and slowly start to rev the engine. The lamp should go out and the battery voltage start to rise. If it does then the alternator is fine but in view of what has been said probably does not have an internal regulator. If it does not either the label is wrong or the alternator is faulty.

 

 

back to the A127s

 

I think the OP says there were no warning lamps so the only way to energise an A127 reliably would be by direct feed from the battery or ignition switch. If this is done then it is well known that even the slightest resistance on the main charging circuit will result in charging current being passed through the tidily little  field diodes that the overheat and blow. The result of this is the regulator "sees" zero volts of charge so goes fully on leading to excess charging volatile (sounds familiar?) I thin the A127s have been blamed for a problem basically caused by an idiot alternator installer.