Bathroom again aghhhh

[WotEver]

48 minutes ago, jddevel said:

if you settle for second best you will forever regret it in my opinion.

Wise words. 

[Peter009]

16 minutes ago, Joe Bourke said:

Looking at your photos surely you have ample room for a shower, basin and toilet, without going over your porthole.  Could you show us a drawing with measurements of the space you are struggling with?

Hi the length of the bathroom is fine 2200 but the problem is from the wall to the porthole we only have 600 mm the total width of the bathroom is 1200 so we are limited in what we can put in there,  I have decided I am going to move the partition wall to the second bedroom back about 2 foot to have a bigger bathroom to me that makes sense, the second bedroom is really only for when people stay and we can still put a decent sized bed in there if we wanted to as there will only be 2 of us in the main bedroom, I think the bathroom is way too small for the size of the boat and we dont need 2 massive bedrooms we just want a reasonable sized bathroom as well so that is what we are going to do.  Also to buy smaller baths, etc costs more money than an average sized bath or shower hundreds more for the fact that they are smaller which I think is a rip off so making it bigger will save us money in the long term and also allow us to put a compact washing machine in there and a bit more storage for all of my wifes perfume bottles !!!!! - she collects them.....

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

20 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Hi the length of the bathroom is fine 2200 but the problem is from the wall to the porthole we only have 600 mm the total width of the bathroom is 1200 so we are limited in what we can put in there,  I have decided I am going to move the partition wall to the second bedroom back about 2 foot to have a bigger bathroom to me that makes sense, the second bedroom is really only for when people stay and we can still put a decent sized bed in there if we wanted to as there will only be 2 of us in the main bedroom, I think the bathroom is way too small for the size of the boat and we dont need 2 massive bedrooms we just want a reasonable sized bathroom as well so that is what we are going to do.  Also to buy smaller baths, etc costs more money than an average sized bath or shower hundreds more for the fact that they are smaller which I think is a rip off so making it bigger will save us money in the long term and also allow us to put a compact washing machine in there and a bit more storage for all of my wifes perfume bottles !!!!! - she collects them.....

 

 

I know the IEE regs dont cover boats but I think you should consider them if you are putting a washing machine in the bathroom. Don't ask me what thr regs say about it because I have been retired too long to be up to date, but just think about it

[cuthound]

55 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I know the IEE regs dont cover boats but I think you should consider them if you are putting a washing machine in the bathroom. Don't ask me what thr regs say about it because I have been retired too long to be up to date, but just think about it

 

This article covers the bathroom zones and electrical equipment IP ratings and  loactions.

 

https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/issues/53/section-701-locations-containing-a-bath-or-shower/

 

Best not to deviate from it if you dont want to electrocute someone.

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

This article covers the bathroom zones and electrical equipment IP ratings and  loactions.

 

https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/issues/53/section-701-locations-containing-a-bath-or-shower/

 

Best not to deviate from it if you dont want to electrocute someone.

I seem to recall reading that the 18th edition makes some changes to zones. I could well be wrong and I don’t know what the changes are anyway but it’s maybe something to research. 

 

A washing machine would ideally have the mains cable exiting the bathroom and be plugged in elsewhere. There’s no way you could fit a mains socket in accordance with the guidelines on a boat. 

[cuthound]

14 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I seem to recall reading that the 18th edition makes some changes to zones. I could well be wrong and I don’t know what the changes are anyway but it’s maybe something to research. 

 

A washing machine would ideally have the mains cable exiting the bathroom and be plugged in elsewhere. There’s no way you could fit a mains socket in accordance with the guidelines on a boat. 

 

Nothing affecting zoning that I can see in this summary of changes.

 

https://electrical.theiet.org/bs-7671/18th-edition-changes/

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Nothing affecting zoning that I can see in this summary of changes.

 

https://electrical.theiet.org/bs-7671/18th-edition-changes/

I’m probably mixing up changes between 16th and 17th then... or perhaps it was a dream...

[Detling]

7 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I think the OP is finding out what many of us knows to be true with the word " B O A T "

Peter why not ask someone round for a second/third opinion on your best course of action?

Totally agree.

IMO any plaster type boarding is eventually going to collapse internally due to vibration, it is not designed for use in a vehicle/boat anywhere.  The OP needs to read up on BSS regulations and RCD requirements or he is going to finish up with a project boat that he can't legally sell for several years, can't license for rivers or canals and is just a white elephant.  Rockwool is not the best insulation for a boat either as it holds damp.

[cuthound]

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I’m probably mixing up changes between 16th and 17th then... or perhaps it was a dream...

 

According my next door neighbour, an electrical industrial contractor, the AFDD's (arc fault detection devices, required on breakers including those serving final circuits) will be a problem as currently there is no way of testing them other than the trip button. Many breakers will be replaced unnecessarily because of faulty detectors.

Edited January 3, 2019 by cuthound
Spillung

[ditchcrawler]

10 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I’m probably mixing up changes between 16th and 17th then... or perhaps it was a dream...

My brain is still in the 13th edition which I basically knew off by heart back in the day

[Peter009]

6 minutes ago, Detling said:

Totally agree.

IMO any plaster type boarding is eventually going to collapse internally due to vibration, it is not designed for use in a vehicle/boat anywhere.  The OP needs to read up on BSS regulations and RCD requirements or he is going to finish up with a project boat that he can't legally sell for several years, can't license for rivers or canals and is just a white elephant.  Rockwool is not the best insulation for a boat either as it holds damp.

I have read up on the regulations and there is nothing in there saying that you cannot use plasterboard on a boat I think your comment is a bit drastic we will not end up with a boat that we cannot legally sell that is ridiculous, sorry this is not helpful at all there is a reason I am asking questions and that is to get it right !

Just now, Peter009 said:

I have read up on the regulations and there is nothing in there saying that you cannot use plasterboard on a boat I think your comment is a bit drastic we will not end up with a boat that we cannot legally sell that is ridiculous, sorry this is not helpful at all there is a reason I am asking questions and that is to get it right !

 

Just now, Peter009 said:

I have read up on the regulations and there is nothing in there saying that you cannot use plasterboard on a boat I think your comment is a bit drastic we will not end up with a boat that we cannot legally sell that is ridiculous, sorry this is not helpful at all there is a reason I am asking questions and that is to get it right !

 

32 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I seem to recall reading that the 18th edition makes some changes to zones. I could well be wrong and I don’t know what the changes are anyway but it’s maybe something to research. 

 

A washing machine would ideally have the mains cable exiting the bathroom and be plugged in elsewhere. There’s no way you could fit a mains socket in accordance with the guidelines on a boat. 

We have a qualified fully certified marine electrician who deals with all of the electrics we are not putting them in ourselves therefore it will be done as per the standards 

[Peter009]

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice but the panic because it is all going to go wrong comments are not helpful at all I just want constructive advice without the over the top comments that are unnecessary this is a very stressful build for me and my partner and we are doing it right first time and are taking bits of advice from people that clearly know on this forum what is the best way to go about it and thank you for that we appreciate it but please we are not entirely stupid we are fully aware of the regulations and have read them assuming we have not is not true.  I have also been speaking to structural surveyors of boats as well as safety inspectors that inspect canalboats who are giving me advice elsewhere I am merely asking questions from people that live on these boats so I know the pros and cons of the issues we are facing.  The washing machine in the bathroom is not a problem at all and I have confirmed that with a safety inspector it is only a problem if the electrics are not installed correctly which they will be so am not panicking about that.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

29 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

 

 

 

We have a qualified fully certified marine electrician who deals with all of the electrics we are not putting them in ourselves therefore it will be done as per the standards 

You are very lucky to find such a person on the inland waterways

24 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

  The washing machine in the bathroom is not a problem at all and I have confirmed that with a safety inspector 

 

 

And he is conversant with the IEE regulations I take it.

[WotEver]

37 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

I have read up on the regulations and there is nothing in there saying that you cannot use plasterboard on a boat...

I don’t believe that’s what Detling was suggesting. The BSS couldn’t care less what you build your boat out of so long as it doesn’t endanger anyone else. I believe he was making two separate points:

 

1. Plasterboard is likely to shake itself to pieces over time. 

2. If you don’t comply with the RCD regs you won’t be able to legally sell the boat for 5 years. 

[Mike Tee]

Going back to the original question, if you are moving walls, I would suggest you build the new ones the same as every other boat I've been on - not with plasterboard of any kind, but use marine ply and seal it with PVA then tiles or preferably  with a product called 'WetWall' or similar.

[Peter009]

14 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I don’t believe that’s what Detling was suggesting. The BSS couldn’t care less what you build your boat out of so long as it doesn’t endanger anyone else. I believe he was making two separate points:

 

1. Plasterboard is likely to shake itself to pieces over time. 

2. If you don’t comply with the RCD regs you won’t be able to legally sell the boat for 5 years. 

 

2 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Going back to the original question, if you are moving walls, I would suggest you build the new ones the same as every other boat I've been on - not with plasterboard of any kind, but use marine ply and seal it with PVA then tiles or preferably  with a product called 'WetWall' or similar.

As mentioned before we are not entirely sure what the board is yet so once I find out will update this post did not get to the boat today unfortunately as something else came up.  With regards to the plasterboard there are quite a few different opinions on it, some who have it have had no problems at all and others have but I guess it depends on what was used in the first place,  my preference is to use marine ply and PVA for the bathroom and also that will give us more space as the plasterboard is 12mm thick so not entirely sure what the point was of putting it there in the first place really.  With regards to the RCD regs there was and never will be a question about non complying with the regulations we have our life savings in this boat and are not going to make stupid mistakes.  I have emailed a BSS examiner that I am in contact with who has confirmed there is no issue whatsoever with having a washing machine in the bathroom as long as it is properly installed, away from running water and is installed in a safe way with the electrics at a good distance from the machine.  This is what we was going to do and I do know there are quite a lot of people with canalboats who have washing machines in their bathrooms as well as homes as well, in fact we have one in our bathroom now and it will be a similar set up above all safe.  I am asking this forum for advice and getting a lot of really sound advice here and do appreciate it a lot but I have to say some of the advice on here is not quite correct in terms of the BSS standard guidelines and not complying and whilst that may be their view it is very confusing when a BSS examiner says otherwise.  thanks

 

 

10 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Going back to the original question, if you are moving walls, I would suggest you build the new ones the same as every other boat I've been on - not with plasterboard of any kind, but use marine ply and seal it with PVA then tiles or preferably  with a product called 'WetWall' or similar.

Hi Mike that is what we are going to do next week we are planning on starting this Tuesday

[ditchcrawler]

One thing you seem to be doing is confusing the BSS requirements with complying to the RCD. They are not the same. 

[Peter009]

33 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You are very lucky to find such a person on the inland waterways

And he is conversant with the IEE regulations I take it.

 

34 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You are very lucky to find such a person on the inland waterways

And he is conversant with the IEE regulations I take it.

We are not on the inland waterways yet we are in a boat yard down south.  We have been very lucky to get this electrician he is very specialised in marine electrics and has installed all of our electrics for us and he also does safety inspections so knows exactly what he is doing I would not risk anything with the electrics, calor or stove on this boat all of these people that are doing the work are specialised in that area and are following regulations exactly.  My wife is very safety conscious and we have gone overboard with safety on this boat so am confident there will be no issues with the regs

[Peter009]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

One thing you seem to be doing is confusing the BSS requirements with complying to the RCD. They are not the same. 

No I am not confusing them am aware about both of them the electrician that we are using is a fully qualified marine electrician who is well aware of all of the regulations and is doing this correctly ... is there something that we are doing wrong here that I am missing should I use another sort of electrician not sure what the issue is and why there is such a discussion about the regulations we are following them appreciate that people are warning us about this and thank you for that but we know the risks involved if we dont comply not just non compliance on the regulations but danger to us and others if not compliant...

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

some of the advice on here is not quite correct in terms of the BSS standard guidelines and not complying and whilst that may be their view it is very confusing when a BSS examiner says otherwise.  thanks

Can you cite an example of this? And note that a BSS inspector will not necessarily be conversant with the RCD regs. 

 

With regard to to the W/M we’ve already said that the power feed would have to be remote, so no worries on that score. 

[Peter009]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Can you cite an example of this? And note that a BSS inspector will not necessarily be conversant with the RCD regs. 

 

With regard to to the W/M we’ve already said that the power feed would have to be remote, so no worries on that score. 

There have been a few comments on this post regarding washing machines when they are perfectly fine and referring to regulations in that context what I am saying is if someone had no idea about regs at all and read that comment they would not put a washing machine in their bathroom for fear of non compliance, I appreciate the help and advice here but really dont want to get into any sort of over the top discussion on regulations I have said several times it is being taken care of not sure why anybody is still questioning our electricians credibility when he is the most sought after marine electrician in the area and we are lucky to get him at all.  

 

Probably will be off this forum for a while as I have a lot to do but will send some pics of the boat when it is nearer to completion thanks for all your help Peter

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

There have been a few comments on this post regarding washing machines when they are perfectly fine and referring to regulations in that context what I am saying is if someone had no idea about regs at all and read that comment they would not put a washing machine in their bathroom for fear of non compliance, I appreciate the help and advice here but really dont want to get into any sort of over the top discussion on regulations I have said several times it is being taken care of not sure why anybody is still questioning our electricians credibility when he is the most sought after marine electrician in the area and we are lucky to get him at all.  

 

Probably will be off this forum for a while as I have a lot to do but will send some pics of the boat when it is nearer to completion thanks for all your help Peter

This may give you some insight into having a washing machine in the same room as a shower in a house. Now there is probably no regulation to say you can't do this on a boat but I think the RCD is slightly more all encompassing when it comes to standards. All I was suggesting way back was that you should be aware of it. 

 

https://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=105380

[cuthound]

One solution to utilising the space in the bathroom for a washing machine, is to build an enclosed cupboard into the bathroom to house the washing machine, but have the door to the cupboard in the corridor or adjacent room. Obviously the plug mustn't be within 3 metres of the bathroom, unless the washing machine is fed of a fuased spur, in which case it must be 600mm from a zone 1 area.

Edited January 3, 2019 by cuthound

[Alan de Enfield]

42 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Probably will be off this forum for a while as I have a lot to do but will send some pics of the boat when it is nearer to completion thanks for all your help Peter

I think this may be a polite 'goodbye'.

[Peter009]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think this may be a polite 'goodbye'.

No not at all have to go back to work tomorrow so cant concentrate on the boat unfortunately if I could I would be on here all day but unfortunately bills have to be paid but will update you next week with any progress or disasters:) that happen with moving the partition plus some pics thanks everyone have a clear view of moving forward now