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Canal Boat or Narrowboat


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2 hours ago, Chris Williams said:

I have a relative who is variously described as 'Iron furnace stoker';  'Blast engine fireman'  and  'Boiler feeder', all at Dowlais Ironworks.

Another is a 'Mariner' at a Cotton mill  ??  His father was a 'Speed Tenter'.  I have no idea what these might be.

Transcriptions of old documents can bring up some oddities. My late mother in Law bought a copy of her G.G. Grandmother's marriage certificate in which her surname was spelt "Herrington", with her father's occupation being a "Farrier"  both turned out to be incorrect, because the transcriber had misread the original certificate. Subsequent research with help of the local Family History Society revealed that her surname was actually "Hemington" and that her Father was a "Farmer" except that he had died and the person giving her away was actually her grandfather( also a Farmer), and they transcribed the spelling of his unusual first name incorrectly as well.

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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6 hours ago, Chris Williams said:

I have a relative who is variously described as 'Iron furnace stoker';  'Blast engine fireman'  and  'Boiler feeder', all at Dowlais Ironworks.

Another is a 'Mariner' at a Cotton mill  ??  His father was a 'Speed Tenter'.  I have no idea what these might be.

Tenter frames were erected in tenter fields where woollen cloth was stretched after fulling. This had to be regulated as too much tenter and the cloth would shrink more than was justifiable. The tenter was a vertical wooden frame with tenter hooks along the top horizontal rail. The cloth was fixed to these along one side, and then to tenter hooks along a movable wooden rail at the lower end of the frame. This rail was then forced downwards to stretch the cloth. It took some time for the cloth to dry outside, so machines were developed which did the same thing, though with the cloth horizontal, and it was on one of these machines that a Speed Tenter probably worked. I have not heard of a textile-related Mariner, though job descriptions in any 19th century census would have been based on what the census enumerator thought they heard being said, so there are anomalies. A dictionary of Occupation Terms, based on the 1921 Census, was published by HMSO in 1927, and the only mariners listed are related to marine occupations.

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From the DoOT:

 

 

reamer, reamerer ; rancer (textile machinery), reamering machinist, rhymerer, rimmerer

sets-up and operates machine, such as lathe (see lathe hand), which enlarges holes to required size, by means of a reamering tool; cf. borer, and driller; sometimes specifically designated, e.g., flyer reamer, flyer reamerer.

 

rhymerer, rimmerer

see reamer.

 

Any bets that the chap in question told the census taker "I'm a rimmerer" and he heard it as "A mariner"

 
 
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Thanks for that , Pluto.  There are fields down by the river in Exeter which were used for this purpose.

 

TheBiscuit - quite possible if the enumerator came from Dahn Sarf and he was talking to someone Oop North.

 

My great grandfather was a 'Drowner' - an artisan skilled in the maintenance of Water Meadows.

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15 hours ago, Pluto said:

 I have not heard of a textile-related Mariner, though job descriptions in any 19th century census would have been based on what the census enumerator thought they heard being said, so there are anomalies. A dictionary of Occupation Terms, based on the 1921 Census, was published by HMSO in 1927, and the only mariners listed are related to marine occupations.

Netmaker? 

Sailmaker? 

Edited by carlt
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There has been some very useful information provided, and it would seem that Narrow Boat may well have become more common after campaigns of George Smith. 

 

Yet there is evidence that the origin lies earlier. In the same way the term BLACK COUNTRY became more common after the opening of the South Staffordshire Railway, it was a term that had and earlier origin. And so it may prove to be with Narrowboat. 

 

In his booklet Ten Minutes Reading, 1848, George Beadon refers to a narrow canal boat taking coal from Birch Coppice Colliery to London. 

 

 

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George Smith only used the word 'narrow' in reference to the size of the cabin.

There is a previous thread on here 'Monkey Boat', by Hobbler, 2009, discussing these various terms for 'Narrow Beam Craft'. (Another term to cloud the waters).

 

When I was boating, I was a 'Boatman' as opposed to a 'Bargee'.  I certainly was not a 'Narrow boatman'.   ?

  • Greenie 1
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  • 4 years later...

I cannot see this discussed before but I've noticed that Rolt refers to Cressy as MB Cressy rather than NB Cressy.     I have understood that at the time the working boatmen just called them boats and I wonder why he did this?     I suppose with most of the boatmen being illiterate someone else injected the adjective narrowboat into the canal system as a descriptive boat designation.

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Greenpen said:

I cannot see this discussed before but I've noticed that Rolt refers to Cressy as MB Cressy rather than NB Cressy.     I have understood that at the time the working boatmen just called them boats and I wonder why he did this?     I suppose with most of the boatmen being illiterate someone else injected the adjective narrowboat into the canal system as a descriptive boat designation.

 

I'm not sure the term 'narrow boat' was in widespread use in Rolt's time. Indeed it was his use of the term as the title for his book that popularised its use. 

'Narrowboat' (as one word) is a more recent form.

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45 minutes ago, Greenpen said:

I cannot see this discussed before but I've noticed that Rolt refers to Cressy as MB Cressy rather than NB Cressy.  

 

From memory some of the motor boats operated by the Severn and Canal Carrying company prefixed the same of the boat where it was painted on the cabin sides with "MB"

 

Example "MB Ash" on Charles Hill built "Severner" motor boat.

I'm not sure if and other carriers did similar.

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11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

I'm not sure the term 'narrow boat' was in widespread use in Rolt's time. Indeed it was his use of the term as the title for his book that popularised its use. 

'Narrowboat' (as one word) is a more recent form.

For general interest, my 1918 edition copy of Bradshaw's "Canals and Navigable Rivers of England and Wales",  written by Henry de Sallis,  has the following extract taken from a longer section describing different types of vessels both narrow and wide beam,  which I hope may be helpful:-

 

quote:-

"Principal types of vessels used in Inland Navigation. 

a) non sailing vessels

"Narrow" boats or "monkey" boats are by far the most numerous class of vessels engaged in inland navigation. They are from 70ft to 72ft long by from 6ft 9in. to 7ft 2in. beam, and draw from 8in. to 11in. of water when empty, loading afterwards about 1in. to 1 ton.

 

The ordinary type of long-distance travelling narrow boat carries from 25 to 30 tons, and is built with rounded bilges. The narrow boats in use on the Severn and in a few other localities for short-distance traffic are built with square bilges, and carry up to 40 tons.This latter class of boat requires more power to haul, as it offers more resistance to the water, and also has the disadvantage of not being able to "carry a top", as the boatmen say, that is they become top heavy in loading sooner than a boat with rounded bilges.

 

A modification of the narrow boat is found in Yorkshire, where is a type of short boat about 58ft. long by 7ft. beam, made for the purpose of passing the short locks of the Huddersfield Broad Canal and Calder and Hebble  Navigation and the narrow locks of the Huddersfield Narrow Canal. Another small type of narrow boat is found on the Shropshire Union Canals, being made to pass the small locks between Wappenshall junction and Trench; these boats measure 70ft. long by 6ft 2ins. wide, and draw, when empty, about 12.5 in., and when loaded with 17.5 tons, about 2ft. 8.5ins.  ..."

 

 

Howard

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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

 

From memory some of the motor boats operated by the Severn and Canal Carrying company prefixed the same of the boat where it was painted on the cabin sides with "MB"

 

Example "MB Ash" on Charles Hill built "Severner" motor boat.

I'm not sure if and other carriers did similar.


I thought they used the terminology MV for motor vessel?

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2 hours ago, Greenpen said:

I cannot see this discussed before but I've noticed that Rolt refers to Cressy as MB Cressy rather than NB Cressy.     I have understood that at the time the working boatmen just called them boats and I wonder why he did this?     I suppose with most of the boatmen being illiterate someone else injected the adjective narrowboat into the canal system as a descriptive boat designation.

 

 

 

Malcolm Braine told me that a 'narrow boat ' was the ordinary original   horse drawn variety.  He always referred to motorised craft as a ' motor boat.'.  I never asked him about steamers! 

I believe 'narrowboat' was coined by Waterways World to describe the modern variant, some of which have little in common with their historic forebears!  

Edited by fanshaft
spelling/meaning
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2 hours ago, Greenpen said:

I cannot see this discussed before but I've noticed that Rolt refers to Cressy as MB Cressy rather than NB Cressy.     I have understood that at the time the working boatmen just called them boats and I wonder why he did this?     I suppose with most of the boatmen being illiterate someone else injected the adjective narrowboat into the canal system as a descriptive boat designation.

 

 

 


I’m puzzled by your concept of illiteracy. Boat people could talk.

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1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:


I thought they used the terminology MV for motor vessel?

 

Look at the slender "Severn & Canal and Cadburys" volume by Alan Faulkner in the Robert Wilson's Design series.

 

Page 32 shows Severner "Ash" sign-written as follows:-

 

Severn  & Canal Carrying Co Ltd

M B Ash

 

There is also the Severner "Willow" a converted boat owned by enthusiasts James and Amy.
 

Recent pictures of "Willow" show it carrying-

 

Severn  & Canal Carrying Co Ltd

M B Willow

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54 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Look at the slender "Severn & Canal and Cadburys" volume by Alan Faulkner in the Robert Wilson's Design series.

 

Page 32 shows Severner "Ash" sign-written as follows:-

 

Severn  & Canal Carrying Co Ltd

M B Ash

 

There is also the Severner "Willow" a converted boat owned by enthusiasts James and Amy.
 

Recent pictures of "Willow" show it carrying-

 

Severn  & Canal Carrying Co Ltd

M B Willow


I’m sure they had boats in a numbered series with an MV prefix. I think the wooden boat slowly breaking it’s back below Radford Semele bottom lock is one.

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SCCCo did use MV for their numbered vessels, although I think these were mostly either the motors they created from converted wooden horse boats or wooden motors purchased from Cadbury's. The 8 Charles Hill Severners were always known by the MB designation, as far as I can tell from any written and photographic sources. Motor Boat being the common term on the river for anything with an engine, at that time.

 

Here's a picture of our Severner's sign written panel for reference. We researched this as much as we could and are as sure as we can be that this is how they were written from new.

image.jpeg.37b93c6bfc73952fa302f6bc11f32db1.jpeg

  • Greenie 1
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In terms of definitions for different types of boats, the following may be useful. It is an extract from a letter from William Venables of the Transport & General Workers Union to his colleague Miss EM Forcey, dated 18th August 1936. The letter is in the archive of the Modern Records Centre, Warwick University.

 

"With reference to your query as to the difference between 'boats' and 'barges' and 'horse boats' and 'horse barges', I will try and explain. The terms 'boats' and 'barges' are used in a different manner on different canals in different parts of the country. The term 'barge' is generally used for craft with a carrying capacity of over 50 tons and are usually engaged on canal and river trade. The term 'boat' either horse or motor is usually used for craft with a carrying capacity of under 50 tons and also to boats using the smaller Inland Canals. This particularly refers to the boats trading between London, Birmingham, Manchester etc. In this part of the country the type of craft similar to the last mentioned is usually termed a 'Narrow Boat'. The difference between 'horse' and 'motor' boats is that these days with the awakening interest on the part of the Canal Carrying Companies they have realised the value of the internal combustion engine for use on the canals. The 'motor' boat is the one with a motor installed in the boat. The policy of most canal companies is not to install motors in all their boats but to have roughly half of their boats without motors which can proceed either by horse or being towed with a motor boat. Some firms work the boats in pairs that is a motor boat and a boat without a motor. The term generally used in this case is motor boat and butty. 

With regard to your reference to horse barges, it is not very common to use this expression in connection with barges which are horse drawn, they are usually called 'dumb barges'. 

You will notice on page one of the Manchester Ship Canal (Bridgewater Department) rates the heading 'Flatmen'. You may wonder why this term, so I shall explain beforehand. These men are actually employed on dumb barges which use the Bridgewater Canal, Manchester Ship Canal and Rochdale Canal and the River Mersey and the term 'Flatmen' is a local term peculiar to the district. Men similarly employed in Liverpool are termed 'bargemen'."

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On 04/01/2019 at 19:58, Pluto said:

Tenter frames were erected in tenter fields where woollen cloth was stretched after fulling. This had to be regulated as too much tenter and the cloth would shrink more than was justifiable. The tenter was a vertical wooden frame with tenter hooks along the top horizontal rail. The cloth was fixed to these along one side, and then to tenter hooks along a movable wooden rail at the lower end of the frame. This rail was then forced downwards to stretch the cloth. It took some time for the cloth to dry outside, so machines were developed which did the same thing, though with the cloth horizontal, and it was on one of these machines that a Speed Tenter probably worked. I have not heard of a textile-related Mariner, though job descriptions in any 19th century census would have been based on what the census enumerator thought they heard being said, so there are anomalies. A dictionary of Occupation Terms, based on the 1921 Census, was published by HMSO in 1927, and the only mariners listed are related to marine occupations.

Just seen this post but it reminded me that you can still see 'tenter frames' alongside a backstreet in Marsden.Not been used for years of course, but if you cruise the Huddersfield Narrow (if it's ever open) and tie up in Marsden, the tenter frames are in a backstreet parallel to the river.

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15 hours ago, John Brightley said:

In terms of definitions for different types of boats, the following may be useful. It is an extract from a letter from William Venables of the Transport & General Workers Union to his colleague Miss EM Forcey, dated 18th August 1936. The letter is in the archive of the Modern Records Centre, Warwick University.

 

"With reference to your query as to the difference between 'boats' and 'barges' and 'horse boats' and 'horse barges', I will try and explain. The terms 'boats' and 'barges' are used in a different manner on different canals in different parts of the country. The term 'barge' is generally used for craft with a carrying capacity of over 50 tons and are usually engaged on canal and river trade. The term 'boat' either horse or motor is usually used for craft with a carrying capacity of under 50 tons and also to boats using the smaller Inland Canals. This particularly refers to the boats trading between London, Birmingham, Manchester etc. In this part of the country the type of craft similar to the last mentioned is usually termed a 'Narrow Boat'. The difference between 'horse' and 'motor' boats is that these days with the awakening interest on the part of the Canal Carrying Companies they have realised the value of the internal combustion engine for use on the canals. The 'motor' boat is the one with a motor installed in the boat. The policy of most canal companies is not to install motors in all their boats but to have roughly half of their boats without motors which can proceed either by horse or being towed with a motor boat. Some firms work the boats in pairs that is a motor boat and a boat without a motor. The term generally used in this case is motor boat and butty. 

With regard to your reference to horse barges, it is not very common to use this expression in connection with barges which are horse drawn, they are usually called 'dumb barges'. 

You will notice on page one of the Manchester Ship Canal (Bridgewater Department) rates the heading 'Flatmen'. You may wonder why this term, so I shall explain beforehand. These men are actually employed on dumb barges which use the Bridgewater Canal, Manchester Ship Canal and Rochdale Canal and the River Mersey and the term 'Flatmen' is a local term peculiar to the district. Men similarly employed in Liverpool are termed 'bargemen'."

Sam Yates, who was a boatbuilder at Whitebirk, Blackburn, told me that in the north west a boat was under 14ft measured over the outside of the frames, with barges being greater than that. This makes wooden L&LC craft 'boats', as the three inches of rubbing strake on either should be subtracted from the standard 14ft 3in width of L&LC craft to give the width over the frames as 13ft 9in. However, rubbing strakes on the steel boats were only about one inch, so their width over the frames was just over 14 ft, making them barges.

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On 22/11/2023 at 13:31, Greenpen said:

the adjective narrowboat into the canal system as a descriptive boat designation.

 

 

I thought we ascertained years ago that "narrow boat" is the correct description and that "narrowboat" is a recent invention following the arrival of comics like Waterways World, Canal & Riverboat et al.

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On 22/11/2023 at 15:29, fanshaft said:

Malcolm Braine told me that a 'narrow boat ' was the ordinary original   horse drawn variety.  He always referred to motorised craft as a ' motor boat.'.  I never asked him about steamers! 

I believe 'narrowboat' was coined by Waterways World to describe the modern variant, some of which have little in common with their historic forebears!  

Not coined, but popularised. You can find "narrowboat" in various pre-WW publications of the 60s and 70s.

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