Advice Please On Toilets and baths

[Peter009]

Hi everyone

 

Firstly hoping you all had a wonderful Christmas and wishing you all a very happy and peaceful New Year.

 

We are just about to start sorting out the bathroom on our boat, currently there is absolutely nothing in it but plumbing and a toilet waste tank.

We have a toilet waste tank in the bathroom which I believe is for pump out toilets but am not sure what is the best way to go.  I would really appreciate it if anybody could give me some advice about what they consider the best solution for a toilet in the bathroom, also any advice on what equipment is needed to connect the toilet to the waste etc would be really appreciated, have no idea what sort of toilet I need or anything so really hoping some of you can give me some advice here, where we are at the moment there are limited canalboat plumbers so before I get someone to give me a quote I really need to understand what it is that I am asking for and any advice would be really really appreciated.

 

Also need to understand if people do use pump out toilets how they hide the tanks etc. 

 

My wife is still pushing for a bath but I dont think it is practical but am also thinking about a small corner bath with a shower over as a sort of meet in the middle with having a bath.  Midland chandlers do baths I am not sure if anybody can advise on baths if they have one ?

 

We have a 60 x 12 widebeam so the bathroom can fit a bath but it has to be practical in terms of water supply, we have a 1500 litre water tank and a 55 litre calorifier which will be powered by a Webasto Diesel Water Heater.  

 

Also if anybody knows anyone near Chichester that can fit out a bathroom for us please let us know as that is where the boat is at the moment on hard standing until we move it to the Grand Union Canal next year.

Thanks guys 

 

Peter

[blackrose]

Seasons greetings to you too Peter. I think you should start by searching though the toilet threads. The first thing you need to do is decide what sort of toilet suits you best: pump out or cassette (or even composting or incinerating). It depends on your lifestyle and movements ? . There are arguments for and against all systems and there is as yet no perfect solution.

Edited December 28, 2018 by blackrose

[Nut]

experts will be along shortly , hope you too had a great xmas and have a great new year.

[Athy]

We had a four-foot long bath in our last boat - that size fits neatly into a normal n/b bathroom. We liked it, though it was best used while at or approaching a water point! There are also slightly smaller "hip" baths in which you sit on a step whilst abluting. South West Durham used to fit these into their Canal Time boats, but that was 15 to 20 years ago and I'm not sure if this type of bath is still in production. 

[mrsmelly]

As Blackrose says much of it is down to personal taste toilet wise. As for the bath we had a full size one on a new boat I fitted with shower over but were I to do it again I wouldnt bother as we very rarely used it as we now much prefer a shower. Water tank size is fine as if you havnt water at your mooring there is always water nearby when moving the boat. An instant gas water heater produces as much hot water as you tank permits just as an additional thing to consider.

[WotEver]

Toilet: there are pros and cons for all types. Opinions are strongly held in all camps so the only decision can end up being yours alone. A cassette can be used when you’re iced in. A pumpout passes the emptying task to someone else. A composting loo requires storage of several containers of poo for 6 months or more while it composts. 

 

Bath: the biggest drawback on a widebeam will be the amount of water used. A shower uses something like 20% of the water used in a bath. It’s not so much whether you have the storage as it is how much of your life you’ll spend refilling the tank. 

[Dr Bob]

A bath will be ok if you are moored most of the time with water available but if you are cruising for long periods then a bath is going to use  too much water. Ok, your tank is big enough as Mr Smelly says but think of the time you are going to be on a water point refilling your tank. With the low water pressure in a lot of the water point taps last summer, putting 1,000 litres back in is going to take an hour and a half which is a bit antisocial. Think about time to refill the tank.

On pumpout toilets, we have one but have a 'remote' tank. I would hate to have a dump through tank in the bathroom as the smell is bound to be a problem. Having a remote tank plus a method of transporting the effluent (we use a vacuuflush - great) there is no smell at all. Our tank is at the back of the boat between the engine bay and rear accomodation. Ours is a narrowboat so easy to move to get pumped out.

Hope you're aiming at the southern GU. Some of the northern parts are not really wide enough for wide beams.

 

eta...post crossed with wotever.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Dr Bob

[Bee]

Don't know much about bath vs shower except the obvious, baths use a lot of water and that's also quite a lot of water to heat up and therefore fuel. As for toilets, much the same as everything else really - keep it simple, it WILL go wrong at some point and you WILL end up having to fix it. I am now an expert on fixing vacu flush toilets. I never wanted to be and I wish I didn't need to be.. Pump out tanks don't last forever. nor do complicated electrics, nor do seals, gaskets, moving parts and the rest. There is a lot to be said for a simple cassette loo, when I finally fling the vacu flush thing in the skip I will replace it with some variety of cassette loo.

[Peter009]

7 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

A bath will be ok if you are moored most of the time with water available but if you are cruising for long periods then a bath is going to use  too much water. Ok, your tank is big enough as Mr Smelly says but think of the time you are going to be on a water point refilling your tank. With the low water pressure in a lot of the water point taps last summer, putting 1,000 litres back in is going to take an hour and a half which is a bit antisocial. Think about time to refill the tank.

On pumpout toilets, we have one but have a 'remote' tank. I would hate to have a dump through tank in the bathroom as the smell is bound to be a problem. Having a remote tank plus a method of transporting the effluent (we use a vacuuflush - great) there is no smell at all. Our tank is at the back of the boat between the engine bay and rear accomodation. Ours is a narrowboat so easy to move to get pumped out.

Hope you're aiming at the southern GU. Some of the northern parts are not really wide enough for wide beams.

 

eta...post crossed with wotever.

Hi Dr Bob, what is a remote tank ? 

8 minutes ago, Bee said:

Don't know much about bath vs shower except the obvious, baths use a lot of water and that's also quite a lot of water to heat up and therefore fuel. As for toilets, much the same as everything else really - keep it simple, it WILL go wrong at some point and you WILL end up having to fix it. I am now an expert on fixing vacu flush toilets. I never wanted to be and I wish I didn't need to be.. Pump out tanks don't last forever. nor do complicated electrics, nor do seals, gaskets, moving parts and the rest. There is a lot to be said for a simple cassette loo, when I finally fling the vacu flush thing in the skip I will replace it with some variety of cassette loo.

Hi Bee

 

Thanks I really want to keep it simple to be honest without unnecessary complications plus the waste tank in the bathroom is huge and think it is a waste of space, I am thinking about the cassette loo as it is simple but am worried about the smell is there a solution to that ?  

[Dr Bob]

5 minutes ago, Bee said:

Don't know much about bath vs shower except the obvious, baths use a lot of water and that's also quite a lot of water to heat up and therefore fuel. As for toilets, much the same as everything else really - keep it simple, it WILL go wrong at some point and you WILL end up having to fix it. I am now an expert on fixing vacu flush toilets. I never wanted to be and I wish I didn't need to be.. Pump out tanks don't last forever. nor do complicated electrics, nor do seals, gaskets, moving parts and the rest. There is a lot to be said for a simple cassette loo, when I finally fling the vacu flush thing in the skip I will replace it with some variety of cassette loo.

Just to support some of the previous points...do read the other threads on which type of toilet. There is a load of info on here.

I would balance Bee's view on vacuflush toilets by saying ours has been great for the 20 months we have had the boat - in use 11 months out of 12. It has stopped working once and a further 'outage' as I put a new pump on 6 months later (keeping the old one as a spare after a strip down and service). That's 2 exposures to the 'effluent' in almost 2 years. Compare that to a couple of 'exposures' per week if we had a cassette. Our preference is to let someone else deal with the pump outs. A couple of instances of 'not too smelly' maintenance in 2 years is not too much of a chore.

However if you tank is in the bathroom, then your options for a pumpout may be very restricted hence a cassette might be the best solution.

[Peter009]

10 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

A bath will be ok if you are moored most of the time with water available but if you are cruising for long periods then a bath is going to use  too much water. Ok, your tank is big enough as Mr Smelly says but think of the time you are going to be on a water point refilling your tank. With the low water pressure in a lot of the water point taps last summer, putting 1,000 litres back in is going to take an hour and a half which is a bit antisocial. Think about time to refill the tank.

On pumpout toilets, we have one but have a 'remote' tank. I would hate to have a dump through tank in the bathroom as the smell is bound to be a problem. Having a remote tank plus a method of transporting the effluent (we use a vacuuflush - great) there is no smell at all. Our tank is at the back of the boat between the engine bay and rear accomodation. Ours is a narrowboat so easy to move to get pumped out.

Hope you're aiming at the southern GU. Some of the northern parts are not really wide enough for wide beams.

 

eta...post crossed with wotever.

 

17 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Toilet: there are pros and cons for all types. Opinions are strongly held in all camps so the only decision can end up being yours alone. A cassette can be used when you’re iced in. A pumpout passes the emptying task to someone else. A composting loo requires storage of several containers of poo for 6 months or more while it composts. 

 

Bath: the biggest drawback on a widebeam will be the amount of water used. A shower uses something like 20% of the water used in a bath. It’s not so much whether you have the storage as it is how much of your life you’ll spend refilling the tank. 

I think it would be more of a case of having an option of a bath occasionally not all the time, my wife has arthritis and having a bath helps her a lot so I understand why she wants the bath it is not so much a luxury more of a way for her to relax when she is in pain.  I am totally confused about how the wastes will work though as clearly the water will have to go out of the boat above the waterline and I really wish there was someone in West Sussex that is reasonable and could do the plumbing for me as I am not a plumber at all, I cant find anyone locally at all that knows about canalboat bathrooms it is a nightmare all they seem to know about is yachts   

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Just to support some of the previous points...do read the other threads on which type of toilet. There is a load of info on here.

I would balance Bee's view on vacuflush toilets by saying ours has been great for the 20 months we have had the boat - in use 11 months out of 12. It has stopped working once and a further 'outage' as I put a new pump on 6 months later (keeping the old one as a spare after a strip down and service). That's 2 exposures to the 'effluent' in almost 2 years. Compare that to a couple of 'exposures' per week if we had a cassette. Our preference is to let someone else deal with the pump outs. A couple of instances of 'not too smelly' maintenance in 2 years is not too much of a chore.

However if you tank is in the bathroom, then your options for a pumpout may be very restricted hence a cassette might be the best solution.

Yes I was wondering about how it would be pumped out from the bathroom, there is only a porthole window in there and quite a distance to the back door.  I too am thinking a cassette toilet would be the best option as we have no space to put the waste tank anywhere else other than the bathroom.  I will have a look at Midland Chandlers again for options as they seem to have a lot of good equipment and also they are really helpful when you speak to them 

[Dr Bob]

5 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Hi Dr Bob, what is a remote tank ? 

 

The tank is remote from the toilet. Toilet in the bathroom. Tank at back of the boat 25' away. Effluent pump runs to back of boat from toilet and into the vacu flush pump which then discharges into the holding tank. Deck level pump out pump at bac of the boat.

Leesan are the place to go if you are looking for a Vacuflush system. They are really good (service & advice). Worth talking to them.

..........but as I said above, not easy to put in a new tank unless you are at the fit out stage of the boat. A cassette then becomes a lot more simple.

[blackrose]

10 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

 

Thanks I really want to keep it simple to be honest without unnecessary complications plus the waste tank in the bathroom is huge and think it is a waste of space, I am thinking about the cassette loo as it is simple but am worried about the smell is there a solution to that ?  

 

If you're on ab 60 x 12 widebeam and you already have a waste tank installed then you probably have enough space for a pump out and cassette. The best and worst of both worlds!

[Dr Bob]

5 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

 

I think it would be more of a case of having an option of a bath occasionally not all the time, my wife has arthritis and having a bath helps her a lot so I understand why she wants the bath it is not so much a luxury more of a way for her to relax when she is in pain.  I am totally confused about how the wastes will work though as clearly the water will have to go out of the boat above the waterline and I really wish there was someone in West Sussex that is reasonable and could do the plumbing for me as I am not a plumber at all, I cant find anyone locally at all that knows about canalboat bathrooms it is a nightmare all they seem to know about is yachts   

Yes I was wondering about how it would be pumped out from the bathroom, there is only a porthole window in there and quite a distance to the back door.  I too am thinking a cassette toilet would be the best option as we have no space to put the waste tank anywhere else other than the bathroom.  I will have a look at Midland Chandlers again for options as they seem to have a lot of good equipment and also they are really helpful when you speak to them 

Peter,

you need to separate the bath and the toilet in your thinking.

The bath will discharge to the canal in the same way a shower will - ie drain out of the bottom into a gulper pump which will then pump the contents out through a skin fitting above the water line - the same as in a yacht.

The toilet discharges into a holding tank (if not cassette) which is then sucked out at a pumpout station. Have a look at the Leesan site for info on pump outs.

https://www.leesan.com/shop

The yacht plumbers should know how to set up a pumpout toilet but likely to offer a macerator type system.

Hope that helps

[blackrose]

20 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Just to support some of the previous points...do read the other threads on which type of toilet. There is a load of info on here.

I would balance Bee's view on vacuflush toilets by saying ours has been great for the 20 months we have had the boat - in use 11 months out of 12. It has stopped working once and a further 'outage' as I put a new pump on 6 months later (keeping the old one as a spare after a strip down and service). That's 2 exposures to the 'effluent' in almost 2 years. Compare that to a couple of 'exposures' per week if we had a cassette. Our preference is to let someone else deal with the pump outs. A couple of instances of 'not too smelly' maintenance in 2 years is not too much of a chore.

However if you tank is in the bathroom, then your options for a pumpout may be very restricted hence a cassette might be the best solution.

It sounds like Bee has the cassette version  of the Vacuflush which I also have, while yours is a pump-out Vacuflush. The cassette version is a bit of a hybrid as it's actually a remote cassette. It's the only remote cassette toilet of any type that I have seen. I installed mine nearly 14 years ago and finally got around to replacing all the seals on the toilet and docking unit and buying two new cassettes for it about 18 months ago. It's working as well as it did when I first bought it and I'm a liveaboard so it's been used everyday all year around. For me it's the best boat toilet I've ever had (and I've had pump outs and other cassette toilets). It's not perfect but I can't think of a better unit. The sad thing is that Dometic/Vacuflush stopped making it a few years ago and spares are becoming more difficult to source.

 

Some bathroom pictures from my widebeam for you Peter. No bath. That's laminate flooring, not tiles.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by blackrose

[Peter009]

16 minutes ago, blackrose said:

It sounds like Bee has the cassette version  of the Vacuflush which I also have, while yours is a pump-out Vacuflush. The cassette version is a bit of a hybrid as it's actually a remote cassette. It's the only remote cassette toilet of any type that I have seen. I installed mine nearly 14 years ago and finally got around to replacing all the seals on the toilet and docking unit and buying two new cassettes for it about 18 months ago. It's working as well as it did when I first bought it and I'm a liveaboard so it's been used everyday all year around. For me it's the best boat toilet I've ever had (and I've had pump outs and other cassette toilets). It's not perfect but I can't think of a better unit. The sad thing is that Dometic/Vacuflush stopped making it a few years ago and spares are becoming more difficult to source.

 

Some bathroom pictures from my widebeam for you Peter. No bath. That's laminate flooring, not tiles.

 

 

Stunning bathroom love it, did you install this yourself if so do you want some work   

[WotEver]

37 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Yes I was wondering about how it would be pumped out from the bathroom, there is only a porthole window in there and quite a distance to the back door. 

Shower/bath has an outlet which is piped to a Whale Gulper pump. Outlet of pump exits the hull through a skin fitting into the canal. 

 

The outlet can be in any convenient place 10” or more above the waterline. 

[magictime]

We have a small bath with a shower over in our narrowboat, which works for us. One 'up side' compared to a shower cubicle, which we hadn't considered before moving aboard: if we're worried that the water tank is running low, or that there's not enough hot water for two showers, we can make do with one bath's worth of water between us. (Which is also one shower's worth - generally speaking, if we're rationing, my wife just showers and doesn't pump out the water afterwards, which leaves me with an adequately deep bath). You might be too civilised for such things, of course.

[BWM]

A corner bath, possibly with a shower fitted above may be a reasonable compromise. With a 55 litre calorifier you will struggle to fill even a small bath, to give an idea of volume that equates to two and a half jerry cans.

  As others have said, there are so many variables with toilets and pros and cons for all. As you say, plumbers willing to get involved with toilet installations are rare so simplicity is best, bearing in mind you may end up being the 'engineer'.

Edited December 28, 2018 by BWM

[Johny London]

I have a small corner bath (1200x1200) which is big enough for a decent-ish soak once in a while (whenever approaching or at water points) and makes for a nice treat. From an 80l calorifier I can fill it "sufficiently" especially when mixing in a bit of cold to get the temperature just right (say 100-120+ litres in total, at a guestimate).

There is a shower over, so that is my day to day thing, but because it's a corner bath there is plenty of room compared to the usual shower cubicle, and because the bath holds plenty of water (as opposed to a shallow shower tray) I can just pump out when I finish rather than running the gulper mid shower. So it is quieter, and I can tell how much water I've used. No downsides to this set up really. I currently have a shower curtain but intend to get a curved glass screen at some point, just to add a bit more luxury.

[blackrose]

32 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Stunning bathroom love it, did you install this yourself if so do you want some work   

I did but I don't, thanks.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I’ve a small bath and it’s great. Perhaps used once a month as a bath (if by a water tap) otherwise I shower in it. 

If I had a wider and longer boat then I’d have a full size bath for sure. 

 

Toilet choice? It’s got to be cassette. I rarely hear of problems with a cassette but hear of nightmares with pumpouts. 

 

But each to their own. I’ve seen engines where there could be a luxury bathroom. Mad. 

 

 

 

[Boater Sam]

Opinion only.

Baths are great for keeping coal in, take too much water for any other use.

Loo? Do it properly, remote tank pumped out from outside, with Baby Blakes Sea Toilet in the bathroom. It will never wear out, corrode or break but will cost you £4500. No electricity, no mess, no smells ever.

Utterly dependable which is what you need above all else on a boat.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Boater Sam
added more

[Clodi]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

We had a four-foot long bath in our last boat - that size fits neatly into a normal n/b bathroom. We liked it, though it was best used while at or approaching a water point! There are also slightly smaller "hip" baths in which you sit on a step whilst abluting. South West Durham used to fit these into their Canal Time boats, but that was 15 to 20 years ago and I'm not sure if this type of bath is still in production. 

Midland Chandlers Hip bath

[magictime]

20 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Opinion only.

Baths are great for keeping coal in, take too much water for any other use.

Fact only.

As I said above, our small (4ft?) bath has the same amount of water sitting in it after a shower, as I'd run to take a bath. Hence if you don't mind sharing the water, a bath can halve the amount of water a couple would use compared to taking two showers.

A domestic-size bath would be a very different proposition, of course.