CO Warning. Be careful out there

[Dyertribe]

It was my simplified description following a long shopping day and a few glasses of wine!

What I was trying to get across was that CO2 easily dissociates from haemoglobin whilst CO doesn’t 

And that it is the oxygen transport in the body which is compromised in CO poisoning. 

It was not meant to be a dissertation on haemoglobin!

[MtB]

38 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

It was my simplified description following a long shopping day and a few glasses of wine!

What I was trying to get across was that CO2 easily dissociates from haemoglobin whilst CO doesn’t 

And that it is the oxygen transport in the body which is compromised in CO poisoning. 

It was not meant to be a dissertation on haemoglobin!

 

Fanx tribey. I knew the broad picture about the CO taking the place of the O molecule and refusing to be dislodged, but only recently heard about the bright and ruddy skin complexion of victims, from a nurse customer I was chatting with it about. 

 

Now, I wonder what the finer points are that Horace42 might be kind enough to tell us about.

 

[alan_fincher]

On 15/12/2018 at 06:26, LadyG said:

Those were the days, no H&S, no MOT, no VAT.

The simple life.

Errm Roland is talking abut 1978.

 

The MOT test dates back to 1960.

 

Oh, and VAT started in 1973.

Nice try, though!

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

Eh???  Oxyhemoglobin carries an O2 molecule from the lungs to the cell where it swaps it for a CO2 molecule to take away from the cell to the lungs for exhalation. I wouldn’t describe the CO2 as an oxygen carrier.

Indeed. Haemoglobin is the carrier for O2. It binds with it in the lungs and releases it in the body’s other tissues. Unfortunately haemoglobin’s affinity to CO is about 230 times stronger than its affinity to O2 and hence it’s reluctant to release it. Haemoglobin saturated with CO leaves none to carry any O2, so the body effectively suffocates. 

 

As far as I’m aware CO2 has nothing to do with it. 

[BruceinSanity]

2 hours ago, Dyertribe said:

It was my simplified description following a long shopping day and a few glasses of wine!

What I was trying to get across was that CO2 easily dissociates from haemoglobin whilst CO doesn’t 

And that it is the oxygen transport in the body which is compromised in CO poisoning. 

It was not meant to be a dissertation on haemoglobin!

Fair enough: you’ve not been partnered with a biochemist for the last 50 years! 

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

As far as I’m aware CO2 has nothing to do with it. 

Except presumably the compromised haemoglobin isn’t available to return the CO2 to the lungs, but I agree the lack of oxygen transport is the killer, literally.

 

Anyhoo, we are all agreed that CO poisoning is not a good diagnosis and often a terminal one.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Anyhoo, we are all agreed that CO poisoning is not a good diagnosis and often a terminal one.

But so easily avoidable.

[Horace42]

16 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That includes me. Could you outline some of the physiology please? Even just the coarse points would be interesting and helpful. You're right, we get NO training on the physiology, just the processes creating CO. 

 

Many thanks.

 

 

Mini disaster .... in starting to prepare an answer here last night,  I spent a couple of  hours going over old notes buried in the office (they go back 60 years) hoping to translate into everyday language masses of complex medical terms, that I find hard to remember because I do not move in medical circles (I'm and engineer) but regretfully all my comments in the 'reply' box have disappeared - and I have run out of spare time at the moment to start again.  I will try again if I can.

Meanwhile comments have come in from others that largely give a fairly simple explanation of what happens in the body when we breathe CO - from which is is reasonable to conclude that we should avoid it where possible.

[system 4-50]

CO2 is not good for us.  CO is much worse.  But don't forget C. It is also bad for us.  If C falls on your head it can be very very bad for you, particularly in ton quantities.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Horace42 said:

Mini disaster .... in starting to prepare an answer here last night,  I spent a couple of  hours going over old notes buried in the office (they go back 60 years) hoping to translate into everyday language masses of complex medical terms, that I find hard to remember because I do not move in medical circles (I'm and engineer) but regretfully all my comments in the 'reply' box have disappeared - and I have run out of spare time at the moment to start again.  I will try again if I can.

Meanwhile comments have come in from others that largely give a fairly simple explanation of what happens in the body when we breathe CO - from which is is reasonable to conclude that we should avoid it where possible.

If you re quote the post you followed up on or even just re-start the post you started you may find the forum software has saved your post as a draft from which you can start again. (Though note this doesn't always seem to work)

Edited December 17, 2018 by MJG

[Horace42]

5 hours ago, WotEver said:

Indeed. Haemoglobin is the carrier for O2. It binds with it in the lungs and releases it in the body’s other tissues. Unfortunately haemoglobin’s affinity to CO is about 230 times stronger than its affinity to O2 and hence it’s reluctant to release it. Haemoglobin saturated with CO leaves none to carry any O2, so the body effectively suffocates. 

 

As far as I’m aware CO2 has nothing to do with it. 

CO2 concentration in the blood is monitored by the brain - that sends signals to the heart to beat faster and the lungs to breathe faster and deeper.... I am not sure whether one has priority over the other ... but when neither can keep up ....to also to tell the muscles to slow down.

 

[Horace42]

18 hours ago, Dyertribe said:

Here’s my two penorth as a haematologist:

The body is designed to use carbon dioxide (CO2) as a carrier of oxygen via  haemoglobin as oxyhemoglobin which readily gives up its oxygen to the cells where its needed.

Carbon MONoxide (CO) forms carboxyhaemoglobin when in contact with haemoglobin and it is 200 times more difficult to separate from haemoglobin. 

This means that if you have inhaled lots of CO your cells are deprived of the oxygen they need to work which is why you die. 

Carboxyhaemoglobin is a very bright “cherry red” colour which gives victims of CO poisoning a very healthy complexion. 

If you are found to have CO poisoning and aren’t dead yet, breathing pure oxygen, preferably in a hyperbaric chamber, may save your life, as may exchange transfusion where they remove your cells and replace them with transfused cells. 

MAY is the operative word. 

 

I've got a feeling you will find it is not CO2, but O2 in the blood that is  carried to cells in the body tissues - which contain carbon C (from the food we eat).  The carbon binds to the oxygen (that provides the nergy) and gets carried away as carbon dioxide CO2 back to the lungs, where it is displaced by O2 to start again.

1 hour ago, MJG said:

If you re quote the post you followed up on or even just re-start the post you started you may find the forum software has saved your post as a draft from which you can start again. (Though note this doesn't always seem to work)

Thanks I tried that but it did not reappear.

[Dyertribe]

As I said, I was not planning on writing a dissertation on the oxygen carrying capacity of haemoglobin not the effect on its dissociation curve by the presence of carbaminohaemoglobin and contrasting that with the effect of carboxyhaemoglobin and the resulting tissue hypoxia. 

I was always told to “keep it simple, stupid”

[Fat Bertha]

Please help! My son lives on a boat and his alarm went off so he cleaned his chimney, when he took the back plate off there is a half moon throat plate at least thats what i think its called. Anyway it seems that one of the bolts is missing so the plate is hanging slightly, is this plate necessary? If so does anyone know where we can source a replacement as i have had no joy seaching the internet.

[Boater Sam]

14 minutes ago, Fat Bertha said:

Please help! My son lives on a boat and his alarm went off so he cleaned his chimney, when he took the back plate off there is a half moon throat plate at least thats what i think its called. Anyway it seems that one of the bolts is missing so the plate is hanging slightly, is this plate necessary? If so does anyone know where we can source a replacement as i have had no joy seaching the internet.

Ouija board busted, Make and model please.

Bet its a Morso Squirrel though.

That cup shaped plate was not in the early ones, suspect it can be left out.

[mrsmelly]

13 minutes ago, Fat Bertha said:

Please help! My son lives on a boat and his alarm went off so he cleaned his chimney, when he took the back plate off there is a half moon throat plate at least thats what i think its called. Anyway it seems that one of the bolts is missing so the plate is hanging slightly, is this plate necessary? If so does anyone know where we can source a replacement as i have had no joy seaching the internet.

You need to tell us what make/model the stove is? Some stoves to include the moro squirrel have a baffle plate fitted inside the stove directly under the flue and this should be removed. I dont mean the large full width baffle plate that sits above the fire irself. The hand shaped baffle plate is a modern piece amongst other bits that ruins the draw of the stove on a boat and must be removed. Any plate part of the exterior of the stove must be airtight. More details and a foto will have you on the right track.

1 minute ago, Boater Sam said:

Ouija board busted, Make and model please.

Bet its a Morso Squirrel though.

That cup shaped plate was not in the early ones, suspect it can be left out.

You must be a faster typer than me ?

Just another thought, some stoves have flue dampers that are controlable do you mean that?

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Fat Bertha said:

Please help! My son lives on a boat and his alarm went off so he cleaned his chimney, when he took the back plate off there is a half moon throat plate at least thats what i think its called. Anyway it seems that one of the bolts is missing so the plate is hanging slightly, is this plate necessary? If so does anyone know where we can source a replacement as i have had no joy seaching the internet.

I suspect that the throat plate has absolutely nothing to do with the CO alarm going off.

 

I would be more inclined to look at a gap between the top of the stove and the flue (old cement leaking ?), cracked door glass, over squashed door rope, door not fitting,

 

OR

 

It could be nothing to do with the fire - my alarm went off in the middle of the night when I had a battery problem and it was producing 'bad egg smells' (The battery had an internal short and was getting so hot it was untouchable.

If you have a battery on charge - feel it and see if it is warmer / hotter than the one next to it.

[mrsmelly]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

I suspect that the throat plate has absolutely nothing to do with the CO alarm going off.

 

I would be more inclined to look at a gap between the top of the stove and the flue (old cement leaking ?), cracked door glass, over squashed door rope, door not fitting,

 

OR

 

It could be nothing to do with the fire - my alarm went off in the middle of the night when I had a battery problem and it was producing 'bad egg smells' (The battery had an internal short and was getting so hot it was untouchable.

If you have a battery on charge - feel it and see if it is warmer / hotter than the one next to it.

Further to this post. Its very windy here at present which can cause a significant blow back down through the stove and this alone could set an alarm off depending on its location.

[Fat Bertha]

1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

Ouija board busted, Make and model please.

Bet its a Morso Squirrel though.

That cup shaped plate was not in the early ones, suspect it can be left out.

Hi sorry yes its a Morso Squirrel my son just sent me a pic of plate, are you saying its not needed?

[Alan de Enfield]

That cement is looking decidedly 'iffy' and is that a crack (in the photo its 'above' the plate) ?

Does the hole left by the 'missing screw' go all the way through ?

 

Is this a 'new' to your Son boat ?

Has he had the stove lit before ?

Has the alarm gone off before ?

 

If it has been in use before with no problems then it looks as if 'something' has changed. be it the wind causing a backdraught, or the flue cement falling out or something.

[Boater Sam]

I would leave it out but then its not my boat and I don't sleep in it. What do I know? Flue looks small or partly bunged up with cement. Time for a proper look at that stove methinks.

On your own head, at least you have a working CO alarm

[Fat Bertha]

Thanks for your help, its hard trying to explain when I'm not there another pic for you.

He's been living on the boat and using the fire constantly they did change the flue pipe last year, maybe they didn't do a very good job.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Fat Bertha said:

Thanks for your help, its hard trying to explain when I'm not there another pic for you.

He's been living on the boat and using the fire constantly they did change the flue pipe last year, maybe they didn't do a very good job.

 

That rope seal has slipped and not doing anything.

 

Tell him not to use the fire again until the whole flue has been removed, the area cleaned and the flue re-bedded PROPERLY

[mrsmelly]

27 minutes ago, Fat Bertha said:

Hi sorry yes its a Morso Squirrel my son just sent me a pic of plate, are you saying its not needed?

Thats the one. It is NOT needed, in fact it makes the instalation unsafe on a boat. I have removed three or four when fitting new stoves, this one on this boat included.

[Fat Bertha]

Will do thanks so very much?

[bizzard]

Yes indeed remove that half moon shaped plate thats held with two bolts, dangerous. Morso warn about removing it on installations with short flue pipes like on boats. Twice here I've had to remove them on peoples boats because they had entirely blocked the flue throat with crud, try to always feed perfectly DRY smokeless fuel and wood  onto the fire too which helps-prevents build up of the cement like crud in the flue pipe.