Boat scam

[Bod]

12 minutes ago, StephenA said:

At least with a car there are things like a V5

V5 has nothing to do with ownership.

Its only a document to tell the DVLA where to send the parking/speeding tickets to.

The name on the invoice is the lawful owner.

Classic case is a car on finance, owned by the finance company, but registered to the driver/ drivers company.

 

bod

[TheBiscuits]

14 minutes ago, Bod said:

V5 has nothing to do with ownership.

Its only a document to tell the DVLA where to send the parking/speeding tickets to.

The name on the invoice is the lawful owner.

Classic case is a car on finance, owned by the finance company, but registered to the driver/ drivers company.

Very true, and in fact it even says that on the V5!

 

"The registered keeper is not necessarily the legal owner." (from memory)

[Phil Ambrose]

On 12/12/2018 at 17:12, MHS said:

A good start might be copies of the licence & insurance renewals, some service bills for the boat showing the licence number and home address of the seller. If they have a photo driving licence with the same address you can certainly be more confident. 

That's the secret, get the seller to provide a paper trail.

When selling my boats that's what I did, provide a paper trail which included original invoice for boat, past mooring invoices etc etc

Phil

[Phil Ambrose]

On 12/12/2018 at 22:30, dor said:

In the days when I was involved with selling boats through a brokerage, we went to a lot of trouble to establish ownership and the right to sell before we took a boat on.  Even so we very nearly got caught out.  One was a new boat from an established well-respected business.  We had actually sold the boat, and sent the cheque to the vendor.  The night before the new owner collected the boat we had an email from another party claiming that the vendor did not have the right to sell the boat.  We managed to stop the cheque but  it took quite a bit of sorting out.  Another case, in fact more than one, resulted where a couple had split up and one party wanted to sell the boat.  They had quite reasonable documentation to show they apparently owned the boat, but didn't let on that their ex-partner was a co-owner.

On EA waters or at least here in the Fens you cannot have joint owners when registering a boat, they will only accept one name. Hence our boat being owned by Chrissy (she's  not daft)

Phil

[StephenA]

On 24/12/2018 at 14:34, Bod said:

V5 has nothing to do with ownership.

Its only a document to tell the DVLA where to send the parking/speeding tickets to.

The name on the invoice is the lawful owner.

Classic case is a car on finance, owned by the finance company, but registered to the driver/ drivers company.

 

bod

 

But if you came to buy a car from me and the V5 said its current registered keeper was Bob Smith you'd probably be suspicious.

 

With a boat unless someone provides C&RT paperwork related to the licence then there is nothing to tie a boat to a person.

[Bod]

4 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

But if you came to buy a car from me and the V5 said its current registered keeper was Bob Smith you'd probably be suspicious.

 

With a boat unless someone provides C&RT paperwork related to the licence then there is nothing to tie a boat to a person.

If you were in the "trade" that would be perfectly normal. 

 

Bod

[Momac]

2 hours ago, StephenA said:

 

With a boat unless someone provides C&RT paperwork related to the licence then there is nothing to tie a boat to a person.

There are quite  a few thousand  boats in this country that are not required to have C&RT paperwork nor any river and canal license.

They are boats based on the coast.

Many of them, probably the majority,  have the bills of sale going back to the original owners .

.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

There are quite  a few thousand  boats in this country that are not required to have C&RT paperwork nor any river and canal license.

They are boats based on the coast.

Many of them, probably the majority,  have the bills of sale going back to the original owners .

.

 

I have mentioned before that it is the minority (inland waterways) of boaters who seem to be 'anti-paperwork'. The 10's of thousands of leisure boats used on salty-water normally all have a full portfolio of 'ships papers'.

Inland waterways boats in other countries also seem to require 'paperwork'.

[StephenA]

4 hours ago, Bod said:

If you were in the "trade" that would be perfectly normal. 

 

Bod

yes but if I was in the trade I wouldn't be basically flogging you a car in a pub car park would I?

[Momac]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have mentioned before that it is the minority (inland waterways) of boaters who seem to be 'anti-paperwork'. 

Has anyone explained why that is?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Has anyone explained why that is?

 

Not so far.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Has anyone explained why that is?

Reading skills I'd say.  Look how many of them can't read "No Mooring" or "Water Point Only" signs ... 

[Mike Hurley]

My boat is on a lake in Macedonia, when i bought it me and the owner had to go to a lawyer guy and do a sales contract putting it in my name. Obtain insurance and take boat to the captain/harbour office and he issues a registration document and number, when i sell it same again. Without the sales document you cannot register it, easy and safe.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

My boat is on a lake in Macedonia, when i bought it me and the owner had to go to a lawyer guy and do a sales contract putting it in my name. Obtain insurance and take boat to the captain/harbour office and he issues a registration document and number, when i sell it same again. Without the sales document you cannot register it, easy and safe.

When we bought out boat in Croatia we had to apply to the Minister Of Maritime Affairs for permission to de-register from the Croatian list of vessels. then the document had to be notorised.

 

 

 

 

We have now registered it on the UK SSR (Small Ships Register) but it is just a voluntary register.

We have retained the registration markings as it gives other vessels something to 'call' rather than boat heading 'XYZ'

 

 

I believe it would be beneficial to buyers and sellers if the SSR was mandatory. 

[Bod]

12 hours ago, StephenA said:

yes but if I was in the trade I wouldn't be basically flogging you a car in a pub car park would I?

Main agent dealer, no.

Arthur Daily, very likely yes.

 

Bod

[Arthur Marshall]

19 hours ago, MartynG said:

Has anyone explained why that is?

 

I think it's a legacy thing. I bought mine thirty years ago on a handshake, no licence history and no papers, not even a proper receipt. Another guy on my mooring just handed over a suitcase of fifty pound notes for his. Back then, at least for 2nd hand boats, no one bothered much. With some people, the culture lingers. 

[StephenA]

On 26/12/2018 at 09:30, Bod said:

Main agent dealer, no.

Arthur Daily, very likely yes.

 

Bod

 

And then if someone complained that they'd bough a car off Arthur Daley and things had gone wrong we'd all be saying "Your fault"

[DHutch]

On 24/12/2018 at 14:49, TheBiscuits said:

Very true, and in fact it even says that on the V5!

 

"The registered keeper is not necessarily the legal owner." (from memory)

Even simpler than that, they say 'This document is NOT proof of ownership' at the top. 

 

Only issue then is a lot of people don't have any proof of ownership! I've yet to buy a car new enough that outstanding finance is likely to be an issue, but usually your left relying on a folder of garage bills with the right reg no and asking the seller to supply and handwritten receipt of th exchange. 

 

Daniel

[nbfiresprite]

On 25/12/2018 at 20:57, TheBiscuits said:

Reading skills I'd say.  Look how many of them can't read "No Mooring" or "Water Point Only" signs ... 

Or time limits, Most are members of the NBTA. The two that have refuse leave the visitors moorings in March or pay their overstaying charges. Are in for a nasty shock when Fenland Hall impound their boats in lien of payment of charges.  

[Athy]

5 hours ago, nbfiresprite said:

Or time limits, Most are members of the NBTA. The two that have refuse leave the visitors moorings in March or pay their overstaying charges. Are in for a nasty shock when Fenland Hall impound their boats in lien of payment of charges.  

But will they do so, or will their officials spend weeks attending meetings to decide what should be done, and then fail to make a decision?

[Horace42]

11 hours ago, DHutch said:

Even simpler than that, they say 'This document is NOT proof of ownership' at the top. 

 

Only issue then is a lot of people don't have any proof of ownership! I've yet to buy a car new enough that outstanding finance is likely to be an issue, but usually your left relying on a folder of garage bills with the right reg no and asking the seller to supply and handwritten receipt of th exchange. 

 

Daniel

What is proof of ownership ? - nothing really. In fact, when you think about it, it is quite difficult to prove ownership (...of anything).  In the end it comes down to trusting the evidence (the provenance).  And then if it goes pear-shaped -  what independent law enforcement parties make of the evidence if the buyer seeks redress.

Even if a scam, buying a boat off Arthur Daley, in itself is not an issue, it is only when the real buyer turns up wanting the boat back does the trouble start.

....when they in turn will have to produce evidence they are the real owners............not easy !

 

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Horace42 said:

....when they in turn will have to produce evidence they are the real owners............not easy !

Many years ago I had a small home made PA speaker nicked. It was only the one, leaving its mate unusable, so I had the inconvenience and expense of buying another pair. Some years later I popped into a local shoe shop and saw the stolen speaker blasting out local radio with a display of shoes on top. I found the owner of the shop and explained that the speaker was mine. He denied that and said he’d bought it in a shop but couldn’t remember which shop, nor when, nor how much he paid. I walked to the local cop shop and explained the situation.

 

Had I reported it stolen?

No. (It was on a car roof rack while I was having a drink after hours in the pub.)

 

Can I prove that it’s mine?

Yes, it’s home made and I have its mate. 

 

But do you have any documented proof that it’s yours?

No, of course not. 

 

Sorry, we can’t help you. 

[Jess--]

12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Many years ago I had a small home made PA speaker nicked. It was only the one, leaving its mate unusable, so I had the inconvenience and expense of buying another pair. Some years later I popped into a local shoe shop and saw the stolen speaker blasting out local radio with a display of shoes on top. I found the owner of the shop and explained that the speaker was mine. He denied that and said he’d bought it in a shop but couldn’t remember which shop, nor when, nor how much he paid. I walked to the local cop shop and explained the situation.

 

Had I reported it stolen?

No. (It was on a car roof rack while I was having a drink after hours in the pub.)

 

Can I prove that it’s mine?

Yes, it’s home made and I have its mate. 

 

But do you have any documented proof that it’s yours?

No, of course not. 

 

Sorry, we can’t help you. 

I have some big PA speakers kicking around (some commercial and some home made copies) every single one has my company name and partial address burnt into the inside of the box behind the main driver, there's also a sheet glued in detailing the speakers history, date purchased / built and any work done on the speaker (replacement drivers etc)

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

What is proof of ownership ?

Part 1 SSR is proof of ownership of a boat.

 

From www.Gov.UK website

Part I registration

Register your boat on the Part I register if you want to:

• prove you own the boat
• prove your boat’s nationality
• use the boat as security for a marine mortgage
• register a pleasure vessel
• get ‘transcripts of registry’, which show the boat’s previous owners and whether there are any outstanding mortgages

Your boat must have a unique name to be registered.

It costs £153 to register for 5 years.

[WotEver]

14 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

I have some big PA speakers kicking around (some commercial and some home made copies) every single one has my company name and partial address burnt into the inside of the box behind the main driver, there's also a sheet glued in detailing the speakers history, date purchased / built and any work done on the speaker (replacement drivers etc)

Yup, I should have done that.