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Alternator .Controller Recommendatons Please


alan_fincher

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"Flamingo" has an old AC5 alternator, driven from a Lister HA2, (it's probably not spun as fast as would be ideal - I really must measure the pulley ratios!). The alternator was pulled apart a while back by Sir Nibble of this parish, and with the exception of an internal short on the rotor, (now fixed), it was declared to be in excellent order.  I would therefore like to stick with it, because it is well matched to the engine, and seems fairly bullet proof, but it is only believed to be a 60 Amp unit.

Flamingo came to us with a fairly suspect and ancient Kestrel alternator controller, since removed and scrapped.  I would now like to try to improve charging performance with the current alternator by introducing a modern alternator controller.  As I say maximum output is possibly only 60 Amps, (Might be 70 Amps).  The battery bank is currently 5 x 110 AH domestic, plus a starter battery.

 

Do people have recommendations about a suitable unit to use, please?

Anything to specifically avoid?

The chap who supplied the HA2 now in Sickle did boat electrical installations professionally, and was strongly in favour of Sterling units, but as Sickle has minimal power demands and an unnecessarily large modern alternator, there was no need to fit anything to that engine.  But he did reckon Sterling were the best, despite some peoples doubts about products from that supplier.

What do the team think ,please?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

In what way are you hoping to improve charging performance? I’m not convinced it can be, given it’s the batteries that control the rate of charge. 

Even with the crappy Kestrel controller now removed, (when it was prepared to kick in!) there was evidence that more current was put into the batteries when the alternator was being pun relatively slowly, (which if you do lots of locks, is quite a large proportion of any overall cruising time).

Are you saying they can never increase the rate of charge at lower alternator speeds?

If so why do people ever fit them, (to any narrow boat)?  Purely marketing?

I'm not convinced one way or the other by the way, so happy to have this thread include logical reasoning about why its not worth even trying!

Changing the pulley ratios on the HA2 would, I suspect, be far from trivial, though I admit it might be the sounder option.

 

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10 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

"Flamingo" has an old AC5 alternator, driven from a Lister HA2, (it's probably not spun as fast as would be ideal - I really must measure the pulley ratios!). The alternator was pulled apart a while back by Sir Nibble of this parish, and with the exception of an internal short on the rotor, (now fixed), it was declared to be in excellent order.  I would therefore like to stick with it, because it is well matched to the engine, and seems fairly bullet proof, but it is only believed to be a 60 Amp unit.

Flamingo came to us with a fairly suspect and ancient Kestrel alternator controller, since removed and scrapped.  I would now like to try to improve charging performance with the current alternator by introducing a modern alternator controller.  As I say maximum output is possibly only 60 Amps, (Might be 70 Amps).  The battery bank is currently 5 x 110 AH domestic, plus a starter battery.

 

Do people have recommendations about a suitable unit to use, please?

Anything to specifically avoid?

The chap who supplied the HA2 now in Sickle did boat electrical installations professionally, and was strongly in favour of Sterling units, but as Sickle has minimal power demands and an unnecessarily large modern alternator, there was no need to fit anything to that engine.  But he did reckon Sterling were the best, despite some peoples doubts about products from that supplier.

What do the team think ,please?

 

 

I have 2 Sterling Alt. Controllers ,one on the Boats Engine Controlling both it's Alternators and one on the D.C. Generator .they do reduce the Time Taken for Bulk charging and they do elevate the Voltage enough to cause mild Gassing which helps prevent Stratification.would not be without them.All 3 Alternators are A127 clones.

 

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Charles (Sterling) senior is a very 'forthright' personality - and that has not earnt him great popularity, Charles Junior is much more approachable. Regardless they do have a lot of knowledge and their products are good because they research the requirements so that their controllers ar just that little bit better than the competition. However they can't get a silk purse out of a sow's ear...

 

In this case you have a small not very efficient alternator turning - I guess a less than optimum speed. Adequate mebe for automotive use but hopeless for boat use.

I'd go for a larger capacity Leece Nevile type unit that gives more output  and  at lower rotational speeds - then the addition of a decent controller gives a bit more edge. Hence the Sterling as it tries to optimise the charge rate to match the actual conditions at the time.

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1 minute ago, cereal tiller said:

I have 2 Sterling Alt. Controllers ,one on the Boats Engine Controlling both it's Alternators and one on the D.C. Generator .they do reduce the Time Taken for Bulk charging and they do elevate the Voltage enough to cause mild Gassing which helps prevent Stratification.would not be without them.All 3 Alternators are A127 clones.

 

The Stirlings have a different charge curve than standard ,they go for 14 Volts and do not commence Tapering off before that Number ,standard Reg.will taper off at 13.6 .

Once 14 volts is achieved  a  Timer Starts which will cut out the Sterling after one Hour and hand back to standard Regulator.

 

3 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Charles (Sterling) senior is a very 'forthright' personality - and that has not earnt him great popularity, Charles Junior is much more approachable. Regardless they do have a lot of knowledge and their products are good because they research the requirements so that their controllers ar just that little bit better than the competition. However they can't get a silk purse out of a sow's ear...

 

In this case you have a small not very efficient alternator turning - I guess a less than optimum speed. Adequate mebe for automotive use but hopeless for boat use.

I'd go for a larger capacity Leece Nevile type unit that gives more output  and  at lower rotational speeds - then the addition of a decent controller gives a bit more edge. Hence the Sterling as it tries to optimise the charge rate to match the actual conditions at the time.

Charles Sterling Senior is an OK Guy ,he can be Curt as he is one of life's busy People.I would gues that he is intolerant of Fools .how did you find him? ,Lol

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28 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 I would now like to try to improve charging performance with the current alternator by introducing a modern alternator controller. 

 

 

Alan, it would be useful to know what your current alternator is putting out in voltage (and current).

My Beta 43 90A alternator was only getting to 13.9V out once in the final stages of charges so needed some sort of help. The current out also seemed low, starting off at 30-40A when the batteries were 80% charged and dropping quickly to 20A. This was similar to the performance of the Alternator we had on our Volvo Penta engine (all new when we bought that lumpy water boat).

On both boats, I put a Sterling AtoB. On the Beta 43, I now have 14.4 v (and higher) and twice the current in the early stages of cure. Similar on the Volvo.

I do have some really bad feedback though on the Sterling AtoB in that it doesnt do what it says on the tin if you have 2 alternators which have different output voltages. I only have one alternator connected via the AtoB now. Whilst the Sterling AtoB allows you to get to a higher voltage...and you can set that to a number of preset values .....it is pretty poor that it does not allow you to set the time in absorption and just relies on its own calculation of when it will go to float....which is always too early. You need to turn the engine off and on again to get it to go back to absorbtion for another hour to get the tail current down...and maybe a second time if no solar expected that afternoon. Certainly not the best in class of alternator regulators. Not sure if their 'regulator only' thingies have a better degree of control

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I would suggest the best is probably the Adverc as long as you make sure the alternator regulator is set to about 1.42 volts high voltage is adjusted to around 14.7 volts for open cell batteries and check the levels regularly.

 

Does not the AC5 use a remote CAV regulator with a wander lead to set for low, medium and high charging voltages? If so what happens if you set it to high? No controller can make an alternator exceed its maximum Wattage (and by implication Amperage) output but when the charging current starts to fall it can up the voltage a bit and produce a bit more current flow into the batteries..

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11 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Alan, it would be useful to know what your current alternator is putting out in voltage (and current).

My Beta 43 90A alternator was only getting to 13.9V out once in the final stages of charges so needed some sort of help. The current out also seemed low, starting off at 30-40A when the batteries were 80% charged and dropping quickly to 20A. This was similar to the performance of the Alternator we had on our Volvo Penta engine (all new when we bought that lumpy water boat).

On both boats, I put a Sterling AtoB. On the Beta 43, I now have 14.4 v (and higher) and twice the current in the early stages of cure. Similar on the Volvo.

I do have some really bad feedback though on the Sterling AtoB in that it doesnt do what it says on the tin if you have 2 alternators which have different output voltages. I only have one alternator connected via the AtoB now. Whilst the Sterling AtoB allows you to get to a higher voltage...and you can set that to a number of preset values .....it is pretty poor that it does not allow you to set the time in absorption and just relies on its own calculation of when it will go to float....which is always too early. You need to turn the engine off and on again to get it to go back to absorbtion for another hour to get the tail current down...and maybe a second time if no solar expected that afternoon. Certainly not the best in class of alternator regulators. Not sure if their 'regulator only' thingies have a better degree of control

Have only come across one A to B unit ,it did seem to be effective .sterling say that the A to B is second best to one of their Digital Controllers.

The Dig. Controllers have  Positive and Negative Battery terminal sense wires  which bypass any poor or high resistance connections.and Temperature Sensors for Battery and Alternator Temperature.

They have Evolved over the Years and are likely the best in the Marketplace.  

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24 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Loddon of this patch has a pair of the yellow  Sterling's on eBay. Details in the For Sale section.

N

Thank you for the prompt Nigel. 

One needs to avoid the later blue sterling ones as they had a tendancy to cycle and not drop back to the alternators own regulator when finished.

 

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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

The chap who supplied the HA2 now in Sickle did boat electrical installations professionally, and was strongly in favour of Sterling units, but as Sickle has minimal power demands and an unnecessarily large modern alternator, there was no need to fit anything to that engineBut he did reckon Sterling were the best, despite some peoples doubts about products from that supplier.

 

Sounds to me that the most sensible thing to do would be to swop the alternators around putting the smaller one on Sickle.

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I have a Sterling Advanced Digital Alternator Controller.  It does its job by increasing the bulk charge but with a serious limitation.  It is supposed to calculate from the voltage rise time how long it needs to be in bulk phase, from one to six hours.  However regardless of how flat the batteries are it always stops the bulk charge after one hour. 

I don't have it connected now but have fitted a 14.6V regulator in the alternator to replace the original 14.0V one which does a better job (and costs less than £20!).

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7 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Sounds to me that the most sensible thing to do would be to swop the alternators around putting the smaller one on Sickle.

Yes, that sounds intuitive, and I would have agreed....

 

Except...

 

  • Engine pulleys would need to swap as well.
  • Pulley and shaft arrangements quite different on each HA2
  • Flamingo has a hand start, which Sickle does not, and that is heavily implicated in how all the pulleying is installed.  I want to keep that on Flamingo.
  • Sickle has an expensively constructed and bespoke cage covering all the moving parts, which is unlikely to be right after the swap, and which I want to keep on Sickle.  (Currently Flamingo's belts are not covered, but its much lower risk, as you don't have to pass close to them to access the main toilet on the boat when its on the move!)
     

Needless to say the original plan was that the engine now in Sickle was being bought to go into Flamingo, but that's another story as why it didn't happen.  The benefit from a historic viewpoint is that Flamingo almost certainly has the engine (and alternator?) that Willow Wren installed in 1968, and the historical significance is important to me, if it can be retained. (OK, I realise Willow ren would not have fitted an alternator controller, but they wouldn't have put in 550 Sh of domestic batteries either, so I have to accept compromises!)

Out of curiosity what would be different between a modern Sterling controller and the types of unit you are selling?  Clearly just based on that imprecise measure of "number of lights on the box", a modern one looks more complex, but what will they do that an older one will not.

Could be an option, I guess?

 

 

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I'm likely to have an Adverc available in the new year, rendered surplus to requirements by my lithium battery project. Always worked well for me.

 

They come in two varieties for different types of alternator. Sir Nibble: is an A127 of the same regulator configuration as what Alan has, please?

 

MP.

 

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5 minutes ago, dor said:

I have a Sterling Advanced Digital Alternator Controller.  It does its job by increasing the bulk charge but with a serious limitation.  It is supposed to calculate from the voltage rise time how long it needs to be in bulk phase, from one to six hours.  However regardless of how flat the batteries are it always stops the bulk charge after one hour. 

I don't have it connected now but have fitted a 14.6V regulator in the alternator to replace the original 14.0V one which does a better job (and costs less than £20!).

Interesting.

I believe the regulator on the current AC5 is a 14.4V one, (it has at some point had an external regularor box replaced with one on the alternator).  It doesn't seem to achieve quite 14.4V though - more like 14.2V from memory.  Either way it is certainly not a very old one operating at sub 14 volts.

I wonder if 14.6V is an option for that ancient alternator.

Stopping bulk charge after an hour doesn't sound at all great, but it sounds from your description that that is not what Sterling say should be happening?  Do you think yours was not performing to spec?

Just now, MoominPapa said:

I'm likely to have an Adverc available in the new year, rendered surplus to requirements by my lithium battery project. Always worked well for me.

 

They come in two varieties for different types of alternator. Sir Nibble: is an A127 of the same regulator configuration as what Alan has, please?

 

MP.

 

 

This could be of interest.

Sir Nibble undoubtedly knows far more about my alternator than I do.

Despite it's fairly low maximum output, even I can tell that its a lot more heavily constructed than an A127 though, which is why I am keen to hang onto it if I can.

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40 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Thank you for the prompt Nigel. 

One needs to avoid the later blue sterling ones as they had a tendancy to cycle and not drop back to the alternators own regulator when finished.

 

This seems to be one f the current offerings......

Linky

 

There is also this at the same discounted supplier, but it seems that this may be more about higher currents and 24 volt capability, neither of which I have any need for.

I haven't yet studied specs to see how else they differ.

Only lited them from this site because thats what came up, but both seem to have discounts versus buying from Sterling.

Edited by alan_fincher
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The blue ones were the generation after mine I had one on Slow Motion it would switch off on completion of charge cycle the switch on again and a few secs later switch off and on and off ad infenitum

 

The yellow ones are simple they raise the voltage to a preset level (14.4 or 14.8) then hold it there for a preset time then switch off dropping back to the internal regulator voltage. Giving the effect of an intelligent charger.

 

Instructions below

sterling.pdf

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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

This could be of interest.

Sir Nibble undoubtedly knows far more about my alternator than I do.

Despite it's fairly low maximum output, even I can tell that its a lot more heavily constructed than an A127 though, which is why I am keen to hang onto it if I can.

I'm not suggesting moving to an A127, just that's what I have. Alternators are wired with the field coils and the regulator in series, either as +ve,regulator,field-coil,-ve or

+ve,field-coil,regulator,-ve and Advercs come in two versions, depending on the configuration. My Adverc will work with your alternator if, and only if, the configuration of your alternator is the same as an A127. There are only two possibilities, so it's a 50/50 throw. We need 'is nibs to call it....

 

MP.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

Another volt for Adverc, ours has run happily for 30 years....

 

17 minutes ago, luggsy said:

Another vote for the adverc ?

 

Why?

 

Alan say specifically he want to boost the charge current when the engine is ticking over. Does the Adverc claim to do this?

 

I don't think any of the alternator modifiers claim to do this.

 

 

11 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Even with the crappy Kestrel controller now removed, (when it was prepared to kick in!) there was evidence that more current was put into the batteries when the alternator was being pun relatively slowly, (which if you do lots of locks, is quite a large proportion of any overall cruising time).

Are you saying they can never increase the rate of charge at lower alternator speeds?

If so why do people ever fit them, (to any narrow boat)?  Purely marketing?

 

Yes that is my understanding. People fit them to boost the absorption current when the alternator is being spun nice and fast, as I understand it. 

 

Happy to be corrected on this though.

 

 

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When the advec on our hb2 (standard pulley sizes)  kicks in you can hear it and there is a visual increase in amps on the meter. The altenator gets hotter. I think the benefit of an advec is it increase the output earlier in the charging cycle, effectively giving you a longer charging day, so to speak, or more charge on a short run .

We have a 14.4 regulator on the alternator but the advec still comes on .

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I have used the original and the next model of Sterling for 20 years but on A127 alternators and found them to do what Charles designed them to do. I have no problem getting my batteries up to 14.6v even running slowly.

The alternators work noticeably harder with the Sterling on, they get hot enough for an old oily one to smoke for a while so the controllers must do something.

With your old type alternator I would ask Charles for advice, he is approachable and helpful but does not suffer fools. Ensure that you know exactly what is fitted and its set up is.

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8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Why?

 

Alan say specifically he want to boost the charge current when the engine is ticking over. Does the Adverc claim to do this?

 

I don't think any of the alternator modifiers claim to do this.

 

 

 

Yes that is my understanding. People fit them to boost the absorption current when the alternator is being spun nice and fast, as I understand it. 

 

Happy to be corrected on this though.

 

 

All any alternator controller can do is raise the charging voltage. Even the A to B can only do this but without interfering with the alternator. Controllers can do noting while the current flow is depressing the voltage whatever speed the alternator is spinning at. Once the batteries start to reduce the current flow so the voltage rises and the alternator's regulator starts to work the controller can then short out the alternator's regulator and raise the charging voltage at whatever speed the alternator is spinning. The higher voltage allows a higher current flow. The only thing that may interfere with this is if the alternator is, for some reason, running so slowly it is incapable of increasing its voltage but I  doubt this would happen on anything but an inadequately geared cam shaft driven alternator (Lister).

 

The Adverc as far as I can tell  during use does not seem to drop into float, if just keeps cycling the charge low, high, low in about 15 minute intervals. This gives a higher average charge but minimises gassing.

 

 

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