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3 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

I suspect from reading all the posts that the OP is charging his batteries on tickover.

If so will someone explain to him why this is wrong with a Beta engine. My patience is exhausted.

 

On 06/12/2018 at 17:24, magictime said:

It's an Isuzu something-38... LM38? 

 

Try and keep up at the back.  Are you reading the same thread?

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11 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I would agree, I'd tend to wait until the results of the new sensor/sender are in, mine has been fine since the sensor was replaced but like anyone else, when an unexpected oil warning light comes on it is immediately time to stop until we have some suggestion that all is well. I think that the OP has pretty much got that now, he said himself that the oil pressures wouldn't have meant much to him (I'm not really sure they'd mean much to me either, does the pressure increase with engine speed? remain constant? reduce as the temperature increases? I dunno:wacko:) so not much point in the RCR guy giving him information that is meaningless to him. If the RCR guy has said it's OK to run the engine (to charge his batteries) whilst they wait for the new sender, then the onus goes onto RCR if the engine then seizes and under those conditions it'd be a replacement engine courtesy of RCR insurance (unlike the sensor which he is going to have to pay for:angry2:).

That's good news then. My money's on a new sender and problem solved (but other views are available).

Alas, I asked the engineer if I should just ignore the light for now and he gave an arse-covering reply (he couldn't tell me to ignore it, but I'd just seen with my own eyes that the pressure was fine). Only thing he could say, really, I suppose.

10 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

I suspect from reading all the posts that the OP is charging his batteries on tickover.

If so will someone explain to him why this is wrong with a Beta engine. My patience is exhausted.

 

1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

Sorry Bix, its hot here and I was rushing to catch a bus.

I did know it was an Isuzu, I remember saying that they were no longer in the market. Same applies, tick over is not good and doesn't charge properly either.

Now done the bus and am 80 miles away, its still hot.

I hope I haven't done anything to exhaust you patience, have I? Did I miss a question you asked or something? If so, sorry, this thread has been quite fast-moving at times with various similar questions asked, some of which were 'out of date' by the time I saw them (because of further developments with RCR etc.) - I've tried to answer what seemed to be the important points being raised, and keep everyone up to date.

 

I have been running the engine on tickover to charge, yes; I've seen a couple of posts on here to suggest that's less than ideal, but nothing that seemed clear-cut and nothing specific to my engine. If someone (you?) does want to explain why that's wrong and how many revs I should be putting on to charge, and how that affects time taken and fuel consumed, I'd be grateful. I'm sure this is all pretty basic stuff but it's still pretty new to me - up until moving aboard a few months ago, we were cruising every day we were on the boat so the business of running the engine just to charge batteries never really cropped up.

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12 minutes ago, magictime said:

Alas, I asked the engineer if I should just ignore the light for now and he gave an arse-covering reply (he couldn't tell me to ignore it, but I'd just seen with my own eyes that the pressure was fine). Only thing he could say, really, I suppose.

 

I hope I haven't done anything to exhaust you patience, have I? Did I miss a question you asked or something? If so, sorry, this thread has been quite fast-moving at times with various similar questions asked, some of which were 'out of date' by the time I saw them (because of further developments with RCR etc.) - I've tried to answer what seemed to be the important points being raised, and keep everyone up to date.

 

I have been running the engine on tickover to charge, yes; I've seen a couple of posts on here to suggest that's less than ideal, but nothing that seemed clear-cut and nothing specific to my engine. If someone (you?) does want to explain why that's wrong and how many revs I should be putting on to charge, and how that affects time taken and fuel consumed, I'd be grateful. I'm sure this is all pretty basic stuff but it's still pretty new to me - up until moving aboard a few months ago, we were cruising every day we were on the boat so the business of running the engine just to charge batteries never really cropped up.

 

I am certainly no expert but I do not charge at tick-over, not so much because of 'bore glazing etc' which frankly I'm doubtful about, but because for me it doesn't get the job done.

 

My Beta 43 ticks over at about 9,000 rpm but I charge at about 12,000 rpm because that gets the batteries charged in about half the time. Even if moving I will leave the engine at 12,000 for a couple of hours after I stop (say while we both shower and eat something) to be confident that my batteries are charged.

Edited by frahkn
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56 minutes ago, magictime said:

Alas, I asked the engineer if I should just ignore the light for now and he gave an arse-covering reply (he couldn't tell me to ignore it, but I'd just seen with my own eyes that the pressure was fine). Only thing he could say, really, I suppose.

 

I hope I haven't done anything to exhaust you patience, have I? Did I miss a question you asked or something? If so, sorry, this thread has been quite fast-moving at times with various similar questions asked, some of which were 'out of date' by the time I saw them (because of further developments with RCR etc.) - I've tried to answer what seemed to be the important points being raised, and keep everyone up to date.

 

I have been running the engine on tickover to charge, yes; I've seen a couple of posts on here to suggest that's less than ideal, but nothing that seemed clear-cut and nothing specific to my engine. If someone (you?) does want to explain why that's wrong and how many revs I should be putting on to charge, and how that affects time taken and fuel consumed, I'd be grateful. I'm sure this is all pretty basic stuff but it's still pretty new to me - up until moving aboard a few months ago, we were cruising every day we were on the boat so the business of running the engine just to charge batteries never really cropped up.

 

 At tickover the alternator fan speed will be less than ideal for cooling the alternator, especially if it gives a fair output at idle. perhaps more to the point you are wasting time and maybe fuel. Whatever you or anyone else may think you are also risking bore glazing. Note I said risking, not that you will glaze your bores. If you do then its expensive to sort out so why risk it. It is better to run a diesel on the highest load achievable in any set of circumstances and when battery charging on canal while tied up the maximum load will be when the alternator output is at the highest number of amps at that time. So if you have an ammeter at the revs to those which give the highest reading. Over time the amps will gradually drop so for economy reduce your speed so you still maintain the highest output at that time. I would battery charge at around 1000 to 1200 RPM once the amps had dropped to a level that would indicate a lower speed. This will also give you the fastest warm up of the calorifier.

 

43 minutes ago, frahkn said:

 

I am certainly no expert but I do not charge at tick-over, not so much because of 'bore glazing etc' which frankly I'm doubtful about, but because for me it doesn't get the job done.

 

My Beta 43 ticks over at about 9,000 rpm but I charge at about 12,000 rpm because that gets the batteries charged in about half the time. Even if moving I will leave the engine at 12,000 for a couple of hours after I stop (say while we both shower and eat something) to be confident that my batteries are charged.

A gas turbine? 900 to 1200 RPM

Edited by Tony Brooks
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12 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I would agree, I'd tend to wait until the results of the new sensor/sender are in, mine has been fine since the sensor was replaced but like anyone else, when an unexpected oil warning light comes on it is immediately time to stop until we have some suggestion that all is well. I think that the OP has pretty much got that now, he said himself that the oil pressures wouldn't have meant much to him (I'm not really sure they'd mean much to me either, does the pressure increase with engine speed? remain constant? reduce as the temperature increases? I dunno:wacko:) so not much point in the RCR guy giving him information that is meaningless to him. If the RCR guy has said it's OK to run the engine (to charge his batteries) whilst they wait for the new sender, then the onus goes onto RCR if the engine then seizes and under those conditions it'd be a replacement engine courtesy of RCR insurance (unlike the sensor which he is going to have to pay for:angry2:).

That's good news then. My money's on a new sender and problem solved (but other views are available).

If I were that RCR guy I would have said something like this: " On a worn engine I would expect the hot idle oil pressure to be above about 15 psi and the hot pressure at 1200 rpm to be at least 30 psi. (Note this is a modern engine, not a trad style engine that will probably have lower pressures). When it was newer those pressures will be higher so  around a minimum of 20psi on idle and 45 psi at speed. Your pressures are xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx so it looks as if they are are as expected".

 

If the oil pressure fell away to under 12 psi ish when hot and on idle but was way over 45 psi when revving I would have explained that those are typical symptoms of a oil pressure relief valve stuck open.

 

That should leave any boater understanding what is going on. If the pressures were as low as I indicate above I would probably also suggest that although there is little danger of a sudden failure it may be prudent to start saving for further investigation or an overhaul.

 

Remember the oil pressure in the bearings is far higher than the registered oil pressure because of the way the shells and revolving shaft force the oil into a wedged shaped pressure point.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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1 hour ago, magictime said:

Alas, I asked the engineer if I should just ignore the light for now and he gave an arse-covering reply (he couldn't tell me to ignore it, but I'd just seen with my own eyes that the pressure was fine). Only thing he could say, really, I suppose.

If you "had just seen with your iwn eyes that the pressure wsa fine", I really don't understand why you can't tell us what pressures were indicated, and under what conditions.

Unless I have missed it somewhere.

That information is vital for anybody to be able to tell you anything very reliable.

Whether I have missed it r not, can you please gives us that information, (again, if necessary!).

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1 hour ago, frahkn said:

My Beta 43 ticks over at about 9,000 rpm but I charge at about 12,000 rpm because that gets the batteries charged in about half the time. Even if moving I will leave the engine at 12,000 for a couple of hours after I stop (say while we both shower and eat something) to be confident that my batteries are charged.

Really ?

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 At tickover the alternator fan speed will be less than ideal for cooling the alternator, especially if it gives a fair output at idle. perhaps more to the point you are wasting time and maybe fuel. Whatever you or anyone else may think you are also risking bore glazing. Note I said risking, not that you will glaze your bores. If you do then its expensive to sort out so why risk it. It is better to run a diesel on the highest load achievable in any set of circumstances and when battery charging on canal while tied up the maximum load will be when the alternator output is at the highest number of amps at that time. So if you have an ammeter at the revs to those which give the highest reading. Over time the amps will gradually drop so for economy reduce your speed so you still maintain the highest output at that time. I would battery charge at around 1000 to 1200 RPM once the amps had dropped to a level that would indicate a lower speed. This will also give you the fastest warm up of the calorifier.

 

A gas turbine? 900 to 1200 RPM

The experience of my alternator is that it would make little difference regarding cooling the alternator since the engine is in an enclosed compartment, all the fan does is recirculate the hot air from around the engine, which is why I tend to regard the alternator as a disposable item, getting hotter that it was designed for is what happens in a canal boat, unlike in a car where there can be a 70 mph draught coming in through the front.

 

The poster above who stated that at tickover it,"....doesn't get the job done...." seems to be living in the days of dynamos whereby the faster the engine went the more charge you got; with a regulated alternator that isn't really how it works any more. If the batteries are almost fully charged and the regulator is only letting,say, 9 amp charge through it makes no difference if you are running at 1000 rpm or 3000 rpm, you'll still only get the same charge rate.

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14 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The experience of my alternator is that it would make little difference regarding cooling the alternator since the engine is in an enclosed compartment, all the fan does is recirculate the hot air from around the engine, which is why I tend to regard the alternator as a disposable item, getting hotter that it was designed for is what happens in a canal boat, unlike in a car where there can be a 70 mph draught coming in through the front.

 

The poster above who stated that at tickover it,"....doesn't get the job done...." seems to be living in the days of dynamos whereby the faster the engine went the more charge you got; with a regulated alternator that isn't really how it works any more. If the batteries are almost fully charged and the regulator is only letting,say, 9 amp charge through it makes no difference if you are running at 1000 rpm or 3000 rpm, you'll still only get the same charge rate.

The Beta manual says for efficient battery charging run the engine at a minimum of 1200rpm until the batteries are fully charged (!).

And it also says charge at 1200rpm or engine damage may occur.  1205? it doesn't say.

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14 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The poster above who stated that at tickover it,"....doesn't get the job done...." seems to be living in the days of dynamos whereby the faster the engine went the more charge you got; with a regulated alternator that isn't really how it works any more. If the batteries are almost fully charged and the regulator is only letting,say, 9 amp charge through it makes no difference if you are running at 1000 rpm or 3000 rpm, you'll still only get the same charge rate.

If you have an ammeter fitted you will find that after a few minutes charging the amps drop and no amount or rev increase will produce more amps because either the regulator or the batteries have decided that is all you are going to put into the batteries. So you just use more fuel, make more noise, wear the engine more but you may avoid possible bore glaze. Maybe the extra fuel used and the shortened life are worth it after all, it was unglazed when it wore out.  I really cannot see how you can know what is going on when charging without an ammeter even a cheap one from e-bay, for under a tenner, will tell you what is going on approximately to the nearest amp or so.

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15 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The experience of my alternator is that it would make little difference regarding cooling the alternator since the engine is in an enclosed compartment, all the fan does is recirculate the hot air from around the engine, which is why I tend to regard the alternator as a disposable item, getting hotter that it was designed for is what happens in a canal boat, unlike in a car where there can be a 70 mph draught coming in through the front.

 

The poster above who stated that at tickover it,"....doesn't get the job done...." seems to be living in the days of dynamos whereby the faster the engine went the more charge you got; with a regulated alternator that isn't really how it works any more. If the batteries are almost fully charged and the regulator is only letting,say, 9 amp charge through it makes no difference if you are running at 1000 rpm or 3000 rpm, you'll still only get the same charge rate.

Dynamos were regulated too with an adjustable voltage reulator and cut out to about 14'4 volts otherwise they'd boil the battery. Some really early vehicles only had a cut out to prvent the dynamo from being driven like an electric motor by the battery when the engine was at idle or switched off. We charged 15/- to check and adjust charge rate on vehicles. I'd put some vents in that engine box especially if its under a steel cruiser deck which can heat up the engine space incredibly when the summer sun beats on it whilst cruising along.

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1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

The Beta manual says for efficient battery charging run the engine at a minimum of 1200rpm until the batteries are fully charged (!).

And it also says charge at 1200rpm or engine damage may occur.  1205? it doesn't say.

I would imagine the engine damage they refer to is bore glazing. I tend to charge at what I'd describe as a fast tickover (1200 - 1300) but that is mainly because below that speed on a cold engine it 'hunts' so I run it at a speed that sounds 'smooth'. From what I've seen on the charge meter though the engine revs don't seem to make much difference to the rate of charge, that is controlled by the regulator on the alternator (or the adverc if you have one).

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7 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Dynamos were regulated too with an adjustable voltage reulator and cut out to about 14'4 volts otherwise they'd boil the battery. Some really early vehicles only had a cut out to prvent the dynamo from being driven like an electric motor by the battery when the engine was at idle or switched off. We charged 15/- to check and adjust charge rate on vehicles. I'd put some vents in that engine box especially if its under a steel cruiser deck which can heat up the engine space incredibly when the summer sun beats on it whilst cruising along.

Our's is a trad stern so it doesn't get quite as much sun on it during the summer, but to be honest, is a few vents going to make much difference? A few vents and an electric fan might but then if the vents are in the deck, when you are in a lock and water is pouring from the top gate onto the back deck I'd rather have a hot alternator than a flooded engine. It doesn't bear thinking about putting the vents in the sides?

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48 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The experience of my alternator is that it would make little difference regarding cooling the alternator since the engine is in an enclosed compartment, all the fan does is recirculate the hot air from around the engine, which is why I tend to regard the alternator as a disposable item, getting hotter that it was designed for is what happens in a canal boat, unlike in a car where there can be a 70 mph draught coming in through the front.

 

The poster above who stated that at tickover it,"....doesn't get the job done...." seems to be living in the days of dynamos whereby the faster the engine went the more charge you got; with a regulated alternator that isn't really how it works any more. If the batteries are almost fully charged and the regulator is only letting,say, 9 amp charge through it makes no difference if you are running at 1000 rpm or 3000 rpm, you'll still only get the same charge rate.

1. Have you worked out the volume of fresh air the engine will draw into its compartment unless you duct it directly to the air intake.  On most boats this will reduce the ambient temperature to a significant degree. Also have you thought about the cars where the alternator is behind the engine close to the exhaust manifold?

 

2. I am afraid the second paragraph is very misleading. Ordinary car dynamos gave a maximum output of (form memory) around 25 to 30 amps. It is true they operated over a much narrower rev range so could not be geared up too much and thus needed more engine revs than an alternator to generate a meaning full charge but even a modest alternator these days can produce twice that and you will see few installations that produce the maximum alternator output at idle.

 

Apart from very ancient three brush dynamos all dynamos worked together with a voltage regulator. OK s it was a mechanical one rather than electronic but the charging voltage was still regulated. In the latest form of dynamo regulator it even regulated the maximum current by mechanical means.

 

If the batteries are not all but fully charged then the batteries will try to demand more current than the alternator can supply at low revs so the charging current is limited by the alternator/engine speed. Only when the batteries are well enough charge to demand less charging current than the alternator can supply will the voltage regulator come into play.

 

The best advice is to charge at the revs that give the maximum charging current and educe the revs as the maximum current the batteries will accept reduces.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 At tickover the alternator fan speed will be less than ideal for cooling the alternator, especially if it gives a fair output at idle. perhaps more to the point you are wasting time and maybe fuel. Whatever you or anyone else may think you are also risking bore glazing. Note I said risking, not that you will glaze your bores. If you do then its expensive to sort out so why risk it. It is better to run a diesel on the highest load achievable in any set of circumstances and when battery charging on canal while tied up the maximum load will be when the alternator output is at the highest number of amps at that time. So if you have an ammeter at the revs to those which give the highest reading. Over time the amps will gradually drop so for economy reduce your speed so you still maintain the highest output at that time. I would battery charge at around 1000 to 1200 RPM once the amps had dropped to a level that would indicate a lower speed. This will also give you the fastest warm up of the calorifier.

 

A gas turbine? 900 to 1200 RPM

Sorry - too many zeros - like Tony said.

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1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

It doesn't bear thinking about putting the vents in the sides

 

14 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Don't look when you pass other boats then - they're a pretty common sight on the cut as they're a frequent feature in many narrowboat designs.

 

I thought they were put there to indicate the likely hood of sinking, particularly when a boat had been overplated - a bit like the "Plimsol Line"

They obviously work as was found out by the owner of the overplated / overloaded Springer that sank on the Thames.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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4 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

If you "had just seen with your iwn eyes that the pressure wsa fine", I really don't understand why you can't tell us what pressures were indicated, and under what conditions.

Unless I have missed it somewhere.

That information is vital for anybody to be able to tell you anything very reliable.

Whether I have missed it r not, can you please gives us that information, (again, if necessary!).

 

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'm with Alan on this. What did you see that told you the pressure was 'fine'? What do you mean by 'fine' anyway?

 

Apologies if you've already explained what you saw, I haven't noticed it.

The engineer showed me the the gauge at several points as it was taking readings. I didn't bother to take note of the reading, since it would have meant absolutely nothing to me; I was relying on him to interpret it for me, which he did. His view, after checking the pressure under various conditions (started from cold, warmed up, under load, on tickover), was that there was no problem with the pressure itself and that it was the sender that was the issue. To be clear, I'm not asking anyone on this forum for a 'second opinion'. Maybe I should, but as you point out, I don't have the details you'd need to offer a properly-informed view.

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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

The best advice is to charge at the revs that give the maximum charging current and educe the revs as the maximum current the batteries will accept reduces.

Quite simply, this ^^^^^

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On 08/12/2018 at 19:57, alan_fincher said:

If is genuinely an 11,000 hours engine, and no previous rebuilding has been done on it, it must be well tired.  If it were mine, I'd consider a swap to a 20W-50 oil to see if that compensates to any degree for what must by now be very worn bearings.

Interesting comment. I have a BMC 1.8 which appears to be 30 years old - I have no idea how many hours as it doesn't have an hour gauge, but doubtless it's done plenty. I've just done an oil change with 10W40, but 20W50 with the correct API-CC rating is more readily available and cheaper if that would be suitable (I considered using that anyway, but the advice seems to be that thinner oil provides better lubrication on starting which is one of the most critical times).

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56 minutes ago, aracer said:

Interesting comment. I have a BMC 1.8 which appears to be 30 years old - I have no idea how many hours as it doesn't have an hour gauge, but doubtless it's done plenty. I've just done an oil change with 10W40, but 20W50 with the correct API-CC rating is more readily available and cheaper if that would be suitable (I considered using that anyway, but the advice seems to be that thinner oil provides better lubrication on starting which is one of the most critical times).

Using 20W50 in a BMC is quite within the temperature band in a UK boat suggested by the maker. There is no reason other than slightly faster pressure pickup for using a thinner oil. Oh, it may save you a litre of fuel a year!

"Modern" engines are seen to be more critical of viscosity and spec of oil. but I suspect that this is due mostly to the base engine use of the engines, eg, in tractors and plant that is thrashed at high revs all day. In a canal boat we do not run our engines anything like as hard as they were designed to run and that is to their detriment.

Diesel engines were built as an energy source for hard work.

My personal view and I accept no responsibility if I am wrong, is that providing there is enough oil in the sump, just about any make, normal range viscosity. synthetic or straight mineral, clean or dirty (within reason ) colour or creed will do no harm in a canal boat engine.

I think we worry too much, look at the way armed forces treat engines.

I have seen engines with what looks like black grease in the sump, laced with STP and Moly sulphide, engines sumps half full of water and antifreeze, filed with vegitable oil, diluted with more diesel fuel than oil, over full, under full to nothing on the dip stick and having been sunk for months and they all keep going. A good oil and filter change and they are fine.

38 minutes ago, aracer said:

Interesting comment. I have a BMC 1.8 which appears to be 30 years old - I have no idea how many hours as it doesn't have an hour gauge, but doubtless it's done plenty. I've just done an oil change with 10W40, but 20W50 with the correct API-CC rating is more readily available and cheaper if that would be suitable (I considered using that anyway, but the advice seems to be that thinner oil provides better lubrication on starting which is one of the most critical times).

Using 20W50 in a BMC is quite within the temperature band in a UK boat suggested by the maker. There is no reason other than slightly faster pressure pickup for using a thinner oil. Oh, it may save you a litre of fuel a year!

"Modern" engines are seen to be more critical of viscosity and spec of oil. but I suspect that this is due mostly to the base engine use of the engines, eg, in tractors and plant that is thrashed at high revs all day. In a canal boat we do not run our engines anything like as hard as they were designed to run and that is to their detriment.

Diesel engines were built as an energy source for hard work.

My personal view and I accept no responsibility if I am wrong, is that providing there is enough oil in the sump, just about any make, normal range viscosity. synthetic or straight mineral, clean or dirty (within reason ) colour or creed will do no harm in a canal boat engine.

I think we worry too much, look at the way armed forces treat engines.

I have seen engines with what looks like black grease in the sump, laced with STP and Moly sulphide, engines sumps half full of water and antifreeze, filed with vegitable oil, diluted with more diesel fuel than oil, over full, under full to nothing on the dip stick and having been sunk for months and they all keep going. A good oil and filter change and the are fine.

Edited by Boater Sam
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19 hours ago, bizzard said:

Dynamos were regulated too with an adjustable voltage reulator and cut out to about 14'4 volts otherwise they'd boil the battery. Some really early vehicles only had a cut out to prvent the dynamo from being driven like an electric motor by the battery when the engine was at idle or switched off. We charged 15/- to check and adjust charge rate on vehicles. I'd put some vents in that engine box especially if its under a steel cruiser deck which can heat up the engine space incredibly when the summer sun beats on it whilst cruising along.

Like my motorcycle .  There is a combined Lucas mechanical regulator and and automatic cut-out, to prevent the dynamo from motoring.

 

The 6V system means it actually gets darker when you turn the lights on.

  

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Crikey, this is a long thread for a duff oil pressure sender!  Poor old OP is not mechanically minded so he's probably bamboozled now!  Four pages and much hand wringing about a knackered engine, plus a debate about whether modern engine manufacturers know what they're doing when they specify their oil, all for a simple ten minute job.  Granted, if the fault persists thereafter the landscape changes, but first things first, eh? :)

 

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