It really is a buyers market.

[David Lorimer]

Actually, there is a source of numbers, Dr Bob.  Several, in fact.  Boat builders and fitters-out all have to submit data to the government and, if they belong to industry associations like BMF, to them as well.  I don't know to what level of detail, but when it gets to the Office for National Statistics, homogenisation of all types of vessels makes understanding a particular niche market like narrowboats and wide-beams impossible.  The industry association stats are available only to contributing companies and, as such, opaque and, I suspect, incomplete.  CRT should have basic data but I've not found anything interesting on their website.  

[nikvah]

I was quite surprised to see OP had found 1000 boats for sale on Apollo Duck - but I found only:

Narrow Boats 794

- Barge 4

- Butty 4

- Commercial 3

- Cruiser Stern 288

- Narrowboat Share 46

- Semi Traditional 102

- Traditional 175

- Tugs 12

which seems about average.

[David Lorimer]

nikvah, the discrepancy probably has to do with how the ApolloDuck search filters were set up.  The feeling I'm getting from monitoring both AD and as many brokerages as I can find, is that AD don't really have a high proportion of all the boats available.  I.E., many brokerages don't bother to copy their adverts to AD.  In sum, it's incomplete data from all sides.  

[David Mack]

10 hours ago, David Lorimer said:

 Boat builders and fitters-out all have to submit data to the government and, if they belong to industry associations like BMF, to them as well.  

 

Do they? Where is this laid down? 

A large proportion of narrow boats are built by very small companies which would fall below the government radar for such matters. And such data as may be collected is unlikely to distinguish between narrow boats and other pleasure craft.

[David Lorimer]

David Mack, are you saying that small builders don't report sales to the government?  I rather think they're obliged to, irrespective of size, and that their data eventually reaches the Office for National Statistics.  By the time it does reach the ONS, I'd agree with you that narrowboat data is mixed in with other types of craft.  

 

Membership in industry associations, though, is usually optional, and will involve membership fees; a small builder might prefer not to participate.  The UK industry body is British Marine, who say: "BM Members represent over 75% of the UK marine industry revenue, which annually is worth in excess of £2.8 billion, of which 33.1% is exported."

 

BM represents the UK industry and is, in turn, a member of EBI, the Europe-wide association and again in turn, of Icomia, the world federation.  Look what EBI say about statistics.

From: https://www.europeanboatingindustry.eu/facts-and-figures 

Quote

The boating industry in Europe is a dynamic and competitive sector and a significant contributor to the European economy. The industry is made up of boatbuilders, engine manufacturers, equipment manufacturers, trade and service providers and consists of approximately 32,000 companies, directly employing over 280,000 people. Prior to the financial crisis, the boating industry achieved an annual average growth rate of 6% and a turnover of over 23 billion euros (today its turnover is approximately 20 billion euros).

The boating industry is mainly made up of small and medium-sized enterprises (97% of businesses are SMEs) and a small number of large companies (over 1 000 employees). On its own, the boatbuilding sector consists of 3,000 companies employing over 66,000 people. The production of recreational craft is very diverse and ranges from series to one-off boats, which are built-to-order.

The boating industry is also a highly internationalised sector. Traditionally, European companies have exported mainly to other countries within the EU and to the US where the export ratio is 3:1 in Europe’s favour. New markets are emerging, however, and European companies are increasingly exporting to Asia, South America and Russia.

With over 27,000 km of inland waterways and more than 70,000 km of coastline, Europe offers the perfect environment for the 48 million European citizens who regularly participate in recreational marine activities (36 million of whom are boaters), as well as countless numbers of tourists. Over 6 million boats are kept in European waters while 4,500 marinas provide 1.75 million berths both inland and in coastal areas.

Source: ICOMIA Statistics Book 2010 - For sale on www.icomia.com

 

Boat Sales Statistics Programme

In view of the lack of reliable and accurate statistics for boat sales in Europe and in most of the export markets, boatbuilding companies proposed that EBI run a specific programme.

The Boat Sales Statistics Programme started in 2015 and is fully compliant with the EU and US competition Law. It is run by European Boating Industry for a group of companies meeting the participation criteria set in the Competition Law Guidelines of the Programme.

Under this Programme, companies provide sales information to an independent third party contracted by European Boating Industry, which will process, aggregate and disseminate the anonymised results to the Participating Companies for statistical purposes. The report, available only to the participating companies, is a an important tool for business intelligence. 

For more information, please contact sd@europeanboatingindustry.eu

Unquote

 

Frankly, I think the CRT would be a better source of market information, if it were made public.  After all, it is with the CRT that we register our boats.  

 

[David Mack]

2 minutes ago, David Lorimer said:

David Mack, are you saying that small builders don't report sales to the government?  I rather think they're obliged to, irrespective of size, and that their data eventually reaches the Office for National Statistics. 

 

 

I have never seen any reference to this. If you think it is the case, then give us a link to a government website or other source where the requirement to report sales is set out.

Your subsequent quote acknowledges that data is limited and sets out industry steps to collate more data - proof I think that the data isn't collected at present. Such industry action will inevitably focus on the larger players, and will not include most UK canal boat builders.

Of course boatbuilders do report to government (Companies House, HMRC) for tax purposes. But that will be in terms of overall revenues, not numbers of boats built.

[mrsmelly]

8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

I have never seen any reference to this. If you think it is the case, then give us a link to a government website or other source where the requirement to report sales is set out.

Your subsequent quote acknowledges that data is limited and sets out industry steps to collate more data - proof I think that the data isn't collected at present. Such industry action will inevitably focus on the larger players, and will not include most UK canal boat builders.

Of course boatbuilders do report to government (Companies House, HMRC) for tax purposes. But that will be in terms of overall revenues, not numbers of boats built.

Agreed. I built a boat and many many others have. I was therefore a small scale boat builder. I didnt tell or indeed need to tell the government I had built it.

[LadyG]

I have noticed a lot of new adverts [may be boats previously advertised] at ridiculous prices, ancient boats at prices asked of good modern boats.

My short list which typically has a dozen or so boats on it, has changed from mostly available to canceled/ sold or sale agreed. So things have picked up in the last four weeks., predictably.

Edited March 14, 2019 by LadyG

[matty40s]

48 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Agreed. I built a boat and many many others have. I was therefore a small scale boat builder. I didnt tell or indeed need to tell the government I had built it.

I did that, there was nothing in the instructions to say I had to contact anyone either.

 

[LadyG]

26 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I did that, there was nothing in the instructions to say I had to contact anyone either.

 

Touch of the Flat Earth Syndrome there,  crew might be hard to find.

Edited March 14, 2019 by LadyG

[Dr Bob]

4 hours ago, LadyG said:

Touch of the Flat Earth Syndrome there,  crew might be hard to find.

The earth is very flat in our marina. The water would run out if it wasnt flat.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 hours ago, David Lorimer said:

David Mack, are you saying that small builders don't report sales to the government?  I rather think they're obliged to, irrespective of size, and that their data eventually reaches the Office for National Statistics.  By the time it does reach the ONS, I'd agree with you that narrowboat data is mixed in with other types of craft.  

You may not be aware of the state of the 'cottage industry' that is UK inland waterways boat building.

There are quite a few 'builders' that only supply 2 or 3 boats a year and do not even reach the VAT threshold (turnover below £85,000)

Then there are many builders that supply just a 'shell' for DIY fit-out (basically a long garbage 'skip')

 

It is even an industry that is 'all but exempt' from the RCD as the 'home builders' are allowed to self-certify.

 

It is probably closer to Gypsies 'making & selling clothes pegs' than it is to a boat building industry.

[Movin' on]

On ‎13‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 08:27, mrsmelly said:

Corectly priced, good condition boats are still at present selling almost immediately, its still a sellers market.

.............................and the numbers on the Duck are in fact on the low side for what is traditionally one of the more buoyant times so sellers of such boats are in charge.

 

The usual caution applies if its been on sale for a long time there is probably a reason - it might be one you can live with and see past or not.

[David Lorimer]

Thanks for the updated replies.  Alan de Enfield, thanks for the cottage industry explanation and the comment on the VAT threshold, turnover of £85,000.  Although I'd be interested to meet someone who could turn out 2-3 sailaways or even shells a year and still live on what's left over!   Anyway, the consensus appears to be that it continues to be a seller's market for narrowboats.  But my curiosity's still piqued and I'll continue digging when we get back to the UK this summer.   The logic of the SE England housing shortage fuelling demand for alternative housing is easily understandable, but there must be a bunch of other factors influencing prices.  Brexit, early retirees/redudancies, homeowners cashing in on the housing shortage, and more.  

 

Something I heard in one of the narrowboating vlogs a few days ago was that a boatbuilding mate of the vlogger had told him nine out of ten boats being built today were wide beams.  Exaggerated?  

[matty40s]

No, Seems to be slightly high but it's definitely the majority at present. Collingwood have about 20 in some stage of build at any time as opposed to 3/4 narrowboats, Aqualine are producing more WB than narrow, lots of new widebeam builders are appearing. 

[Alan de Enfield]

48 minutes ago, David Lorimer said:

Although I'd be interested to meet someone who could turn out 2-3 sailaways or even shells a year and still live on what's left over! 

This is not a 'formal industry' (except for a few 'volume producers').

One 'trick' is to get the eventual owner to order and buy the components (steel, engine, etc etc) and the boat builder literally charges for his 'labour'.

Say (about) £25,000 income for each boat for 3 months labour and produce 3 boats per annum and have 3-months holiday on your own boat.

[David Lorimer]

Alan thanks, I get it.  You've just described how my house makeover was paid for!  matty40s that 5:1 ratio of wide beams to narrowboats looks more credible than 9:1.  Even so, where are they all going to fit!?  What are the marinas doing to accommodate them all?  

[WotEver]

26 minutes ago, David Lorimer said:

where are they all going to fit!?

A very good question to which, it seems, no-one has a very good answer. 

 

26 minutes ago, David Lorimer said:

What are the marinas doing to accommodate them all?  

Parking them. 

[Boater Sam]

Wide beams will stack quite well, better than narrow boats.

[70liveaboard]

Just 10yrs ago the vat threshold was around 67-68,000 iirc. The boatbuilding industry is full of builders flouting vat rules and tax rules in general. From the smallest producing anything above one and a half fully fitted NB's to the larger builders producing large numbers under several names to avoid vat and tax in general, also paye etc..

 

Now at £85,000 with prices the way they are, it still stands that 1-2 f/f n/b's and your across that threshold.

 

That said, knowing the current trend it will only come back to bite builders on the 'you know where'.

Back vat comes with huge costs and fines and of course is a criminal act, so add to that the possibility of prison time.

[mrsmelly]

24 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Just 10yrs ago the vat threshold was around 67-68,000 iirc. The boatbuilding industry is full of builders flouting vat rules and tax rules in general. From the smallest producing anything above one and a half fully fitted NB's to the larger builders producing large numbers under several names to avoid vat and tax in general, also paye etc..

 

Now at £85,000 with prices the way they are, it still stands that 1-2 f/f n/b's and your across that threshold.

 

That said, knowing the current trend it will only come back to bite builders on the 'you know where'.

Back vat comes with huge costs and fines and of course is a criminal act, so add to that the possibility of prison time.

The VAT man makes the Tax man look like a pussy cat indeed!!

[roland elsdon]

156 slightly tarnished wide boat dreams on the duck may indicate a sellers nightmare

[Bod]

11 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

The VAT man makes the Tax man look like a pussy cat indeed!!

Which is why VAT went to Custom and Excise, rather than Inland Revenue.  Much greater powers than the Tax man.

 

Bod

[David Lorimer]

Scary territory for buyers, particularly those of new wide beam boats with dimensions making them exempt from 20% VAT.  Best to be leery of indemnity clauses where the buyer's responsible for errors and omissions concerning VAT.  

10 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

156 slightly tarnished wide boat dreams on the duck may indicate a sellers nightmare

roland, that went over my head.  Were you referring to 156 current wide beam adverts on AD and, if so, "slightly tarnished"?  

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, David Lorimer said:

Scary territory for buyers, particularly those of new wide beam boats with dimensions making them exempt from 20% VAT.  Best to be leery of indemnity clauses where the buyer's responsible for errors and omissions concerning VAT.  

roland, that went over my head.  Were you referring to 156 current wide beam adverts on AD and, if so, "slightly tarnished"?  

They also need to read the 'small print' where they are signing to say that should the HMRCE decide that the boat is not VAT exempt, that the buyer becomes responsible (whereas it is the manufacturer who has misinformed the buyer who is legally responsible for paying the VAT-Man)

 

This is how it works:

• A VAT-free boat is known as a ‘qualifying ship’. There are two specific legal criteria for a qualifying ship.
• The first is that the boat has not been ‘designed or adapted’ for recreation or pleasure. The fact that your boat is designed as a live-aboard and not as a ‘pleasure craft’ means that it fulfills the first condition even if you are not intending to live aboard permanently or at all.
• The second criterion relates to gross tonnage. This gross tonnage figure must be not less than 15 tons.  Gross tonnage is to be calculated as under the Merchant Shipping Acts.  Where gross tonnage has not been certified in accordance with those Acts HMRC guidance in Notice 744C (available online) sets out a modified version of that calculation for VAT purposes.

The HMRC formula for calculating gross tonnage for vessels of less than 24m in length is as follows.

L (m) x B (m) x D (m) x 0.16 (see below for HMRC definitions of L,B & D)

HMRC then go on to specifically define the D measurement for canal boats and this is measured from under the top of what we know as the gunwale to the base plate.

As an interesting example, take ‘Panache’ the widebeam boat featured on our build diary of a huge 69’ long (L) x 11″ beam (B) with a height of 46” (D).

Let’s work out the calculation by first converting the imperial measurements to metric so we have:

21.03m x 3.35m x 1.16m = 81.35 x 0.16 = 13.01 gross tons… Not a qualifying vessel.

 

A word of warning…

It is vital as a ‘Purchaser’ you read all the contractual documentation regarding the purchase of any vessels and in particular VAT free vessels. There’s been a case highlighted to us where a boat had been sold as ‘VAT free’ unfortunately on incorrect grounds which post sale lead to the HMRC correctly chasing the seller for the VAT which should have been charged. In this particular case the contract of sale placed the responsibility to satisfy any such VAT claim on the purchaser so they had to stump up.