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Getting our radiators working


jetzi

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4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Yes we have a Morsø Squirrel at the far bow end of the boat, which heats the front half of the boat (saloon, kitchen and somewhat the bedroom) extremely well, in fact I had to get up last night to let some heat out because it got uncomfortably hot! We don't have a stove with a back boiler. Perhaps given the proximity of the calorifier to where I want the second stove I should consider adding a back boiler as a THIRD option for heating water?

Currently I'm thinking of installing another stove at the far stern end (next to the calorifier)

We installed a second Morso squirrel a few years back in the bedroom. The one at the front has a back boiler and rads. The one in the bedroom only gets lit on very cold nights.I too am considering fitting a backboiler to it to heat calorifier water.

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5 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

know it's off, but I thought that the heat alone would cause circulation through the rads

Only in a gravity type system, which unless you have a back boiler in your stove your very unlikely to have, and even if you do it probably wouldn’t work with the heat source from the calorfier.

8 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Wanted to live aboard for a few months and get a feel for the pain points.

Suggest a few years before radically changing anything, then you’ll have a couple of winters and summers experience.

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7 minutes ago, Robbo said:

If the ebersplutter was working the your rads would get hot (or should do), so yes “worth it”.   If you just have the pump on (but the eberspultter not heating) so just circulating the water around the system then it would use the heat in calorfier to heat the radiators but will be not efficient in doing so.

8 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

No,that is just caused by the hot water heating the eber coil in the calorifier. There is nothing to circulate the water,and It wouldn't get that hot anyway.


Ok thanks for all your help, I have a clear path forward now.

1.  Upgrade my domestic batteries and wire up the Eber.

2.  Get the Eber serviced.

3.  Install a second solid fuel stove with a back boiler hooked up to the Eber/rad circuit.

Unless with the second solid fuel stove we wouldn't really need the rads. It's not quite the dead of winter yet but the one stove is actually very effective without mucking about with radiators. Still, I think having lots of redundancy is really important on a boat.

 

9 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Suggest a few years before radically changing anything,

Wow, definitely can't wait that long. I suppose how radical a change can reasonably be is directly proportional to how long you've lived with the status quo, though!

Does anyone know how I'd go about getting the Eber serviced? Is it something I could DIY, or would I have to uninstall the unit and take it somewhere? OR are there call out technicians?

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10 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:


Ok thanks for all your help, I have a clear path forward now.

1.  Upgrade my domestic batteries and wire up the Eber.

2.  Get the Eber serviced.

3.  Install a second solid fuel stove with a back boiler hooked up to the Eber/rad circuit.

Unless with the second solid fuel stove we wouldn't really need the rads. It's not quite the dead of winter yet but the one stove is actually very effective without mucking about with radiators. Still, I think having lots of redundancy is really important on a boat.

 

Wow, definitely can't wait that long. I suppose how radical a change can reasonably be is directly proportional to how long you've lived with the status quo, though!

Does anyone know how I'd go about getting the Eber serviced? Is it something I could DIY, or would I have to uninstall the unit and take it somewhere? OR are there call out technicians?

Try You tube, there always used to be some blokes showing how to service the eber on there. Its a doddle but I have a bloke who does my webasto nowadays.

Just checked on you tube and steves still on there its a good easy one to follow. Just search service eberspacher on the tube :)

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35 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

To clarify, the Eberspacher is off, I know it's off,

By 'off' do you mean it is turned off at the switch, or it is 'off' because it has no battery ?

 

I think I know which you mean but there appears to be differing opinions.

 

I'd suggest getting the Eber to be 'on' then try it - why waste £100s ?? having it serviced if all it need is 'turning on' (or a battery connecting)

Don't assume it doesn't work until you know it doesn't work.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

By 'off' do you mean it is turned off at the switch, or it is 'off' because it has no battery ? 

Both, but mainly off in the sense that it's not wired up.

It's a little more "off" than two terminal connections flopping around where a battery used to be. I'll have to get in there and figure out where all the wires go to be able to hook it up again.

 

18 minutes ago, Bazza954 said:

Why don't you wire up the eber to your existing domestic battery and try it, there may be nowt wrong with it, if you're worried about the power consumption, run your engine at the same time.

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'd suggest getting the Eber to be 'on' then try it - why waste £100s ?? having it serviced if all it need is 'turning on' (or a battery connecting)

Sure, but my understanding is that they need regular servicing anyways, and judging by other signs of maintenance neglect on the boat as we bought her I am not filled with confidence without doing it. But I think you guys are being sensible here, let me see whether it is working before I get too deeply into it. It could be that the unit has some obvious major problems that a new gasket isn't going to fix. I think that was part of my motivation to see if the rads were working before looking at the Eber. That was before I knew I needed the Eber's circulation pump to be running, so the logical next step is to get the Eber's circulation pump (at least) running. 
 

16 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Try You tube, there always used to be some blokes showing how to service the eber on there. Its a doddle but I have a bloke who does my webasto nowadays.

Just checked on you tube and steves still on there its a good easy one to follow. Just search service eberspacher on the tube :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14SUSxfPHPY


I think you might be talking about this one by Steev? Looks like it is just a case of taking it apart, giving it a clean, replacing two gaskets and reinstalling it. And if I'm looking at the right thing the gaskets seem to be available here for 4.75 GBP. http://www.eberspacherparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=71_74&products_id=130

Seems very doable!

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2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Both, but mainly off in the sense that it's not wired up.

It's a little more "off" than two terminal connections flopping around where a battery used to be. I'll have to get in there and figure out where all the wires go to be able to hook it up again.

Thank you, that is as I had interpreted you OP

 

3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Sure, but my understanding is that they need regular servicing anyways, and judging by other signs of maintenance neglect on the boat as we bought her I am not filled with confidence without doing it.

Some folks seem to have 'problems' with their Ebers / Webastos and service them frequently, some seem to be OCD and service them anyway.

Over the years I have had a number of them and have NEVER had one serviced - despite having them on continuously as the primary source of heat (which apparently is a manufacturers No-No)

 

Try it first and then decide.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Some folks seem to have 'problems' with their Ebers / Webastos and service them frequently, some seem to be OCD and service them anyway.

Over the years I have had a number of them and have NEVER had one serviced - despite having them on continuously as the primary source of heat (which apparently is a manufacturers No-No)

It could be that the starting and stopping of the units is what causes the buildup as the fuel doesn't get enough oxygen. Or the heating and cooling cycles that wear the gaskets.

Otherwise, I read on one of the narrowboat websites that there are two main types - forced combustion burners (like this Eberspacher) which require frequent maintenance and pressure jet systems, which don't but are significantly more expensive and hence only found on higher end boats. Perhaps you have the better system @Alan de Enfield?

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57 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Wow, definitely can't wait that long. I suppose how radical a change can reasonably be is directly proportional to how long you've lived with the status quo, though

I would say adding another stove at the rear was quite radical and I would live few a few winters before deciding if it’s nesssary (ie can you live with the ebersputter on the days you need it). 

 

Ps if your on shore power and quick solution is just to add a oil heater in the area.

edit just read you using engine for electric so guessing your not on shore power!

 

another quick solution would be to use parrafin heaters but they cause more condensation and smell a bit.

Edited by Robbo
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Just now, ivan&alice said:

It could be that the starting and stopping of the units is what causes the buildup as the fuel doesn't get enough oxygen. Or the heating and cooling cycles that wear the gaskets.

Otherwise, I read on one of the narrowboat websites that there are two main types - forced combustion burners (like this Eberspacher) which require frequent maintenance and pressure jet systems, which don't but are significantly more expensive and hence only found on higher end boats. Perhaps you have the better system @Alan de Enfield?

Nope - just the 'standard' marine modified automotive variant.

I have used Webastos and Eberspachers in the same way without problems - My thinking is that continuous use will increase the temperatures and help reduce carbon build up (which is what require removing from the combustion chamber in a service)

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2 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I would say adding another stove at the rear was quite radical and I would live few a few winters before deciding if it’s nesssary (ie can you live with the ebersputter on the days you need it). 

We lived 18 years without a separate stove. It is nice to have, but certainly not essential.The trouble with our 70 ft boat,is that the stove at the front doesn't really warm the bedroom. Having said that,we don't have an eberthingy.If we had, I probably wouldn't have bothered with the second stove.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I would say adding another stove at the rear was quite radical and I would live few a few winters before deciding if it’s nesssary (ie can you live with the ebersputter on the days you need it). 

 

Ps if your on shore power and quick solution is just to add a oil heater in the area.

edit just read you using engine for electric so guessing your not on shore power!

No shore power. I can actually cope with the heating as is, but I'm very concerned about the dampness at that end of the boat - there is a lot of condensation on the hull walls (at least where they are exposed) and it's causing surface rust. I understand the stove should go some way to drying out the air in that room.

 

This is going to require a radical solution sooner rather than later - I'm going to strip out the interior and convert/paint the inside of the hull and bilge, at least in that end room. It's very bare and needs to be completely refurbished, anyway.

 

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

We lived 18 years without a separate stove. It is nice to have, but certainly not essential.The trouble with our 70 ft boat,is that the stove at the front doesn't really warm the bedroom. Having said that,we don't have an eberthingy.If we had, I probably wouldn't have bothered with the second stove.

Our bedroom is in the middle so gets enough heat from the current stove at the bow. But it's also not very efficient as it requires us to have the saloon very hot to get the bedroom to a comfortable temperatiure.

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4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Our bedroom is in the middle so gets enough heat from the current stove at the bow. But it's also not very efficient as it requires us to have the saloon very hot to get the bedroom to a comfortable temperatiure.

You need a stove fan :) 

 

 

If the plumbing goes near the stove I would look at a back boiler.

Edited by Robbo
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You need to get to a position where you have no bare steel inside.   Bare steel will get condensation no matter what you do.  It needs to be treated for any rust, and insulated in a water vapour proof manner, ideally in my book with sprayfoam.  It will make a tremendous difference to how much heating you require.

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1 hour ago, Robbo said:

You need a stove fan :) 

I was skeptical of these, do they help that much?

 

3 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

You need to get to a position where you have no bare steel inside.   Bare steel will get condensation no matter what you do.  It needs to be treated for any rust, and insulated in a water vapour proof manner, ideally in my book with sprayfoam.  It will make a tremendous difference to how much heating you require.

There was a bit of bare hull exposed originally. I've taken up some of the chipboard wall and the floor in one corner, along with one of the polysterene sections to see what the condition was like. Here's a pic:

IMG_20181202_131500.jpg.188bc533ee603c3321d5934035152b24.jpg

This shows the surface rust on the inside of the hull and the bilge which has a little water in it (which I'm trying to soak up with disposable nappies).

You can see where I removed the polystyrene by the sillicone left on the wall.

It is good to hear that insulating the walls should stave off the condensation. I'll look into using spray foam. Should I feel confident that the rest of the boat is not in such poor condition, which is clad in tongue-and-groove wood and presumably also has the same polystyrene insulation?

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4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

If you read the OP, you'll notice he says the Eber is wired up to have its own dedicated battery, which is missing.

 

A most peculiar arrangement if I may say.

Is it an ex Black Prince hire boat? They usually have a separate battery for the eber charged via a split diode.

 

Steve

 

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1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

I was skeptical of these, do they help that much?

Well it’s a fan that moves air around so it may help or it may not, probably more on the layout of the boat if they work or not.  If not they look pretty and will tell you when the stove is getting cold.

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1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

I was skeptical of these, do they help that much?

 



 

It will help equalise the temperature in the cabin at the front - that, it should do a good job at - but its not going to help get air more than 12 -15ft down the boat.

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16 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

It will help equalise the temperature in the cabin at the front - that, it should do a good job at - but its not going to help get air more than 12 -15ft down the boat.

Wot! that's not what you said when you convinced me to buy my one. "Rusty", you said",It will warm your entire boat,with or without stove running!"

Edited by rusty69
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Success! I've wired up the Eberspacher, connected it's exhaust to a skin fitting, and it's whirred into life. The draw on the battery does seem quite high so I'm running the engine as well.

The radiator in the bedroom has gotten nice and toasty, but the towel rail in the bathroom is still cold. Both the inlet and outlet taps are wide open and warm, but the rad itself is cold. I've also bled all the air out of it and I've turned off the rad in the bedroom to increase the pressure through it, but no dice so far.

It could be that one of the taps is faulty and not opening on the inside, or perhaps there's a blockage.

Definitely progress though!

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2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Success! I've wired up the Eberspacher, connected it's exhaust to a skin fitting, and it's whirred into life. The draw on the battery does seem quite high so I'm running the engine as well.

The radiator in the bedroom has gotten nice and toasty, but the towel rail in the bathroom is still cold. Both the inlet and outlet taps are wide open and warm, but the rad itself is cold. I've also bled all the air out of it and I've turned off the rad in the bedroom to increase the pressure through it, but no dice so far.

It could be that one of the taps is faulty and not opening on the inside, or perhaps there's a blockage.

Definitely progress though!

Congratulations.Now make sure your CO detector is not to far away.

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Just for the record:

I designed Innisfree's heating to have the ability to run directly from the engine which it did successfully, it took a while to get to working temp without Mikuni assistance but once there it supplied 6 rads and a calorifier at 80 deg just on the engine coolant pump. In practice we used to preheat ch and engine with the Mikuni to shorten engine warm up time, in sub zero weather engine t/stat would then open within 10 mins or so. 

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