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Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?


leafofgrass

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

And, what checks does an Inland Waterways broker actually do ?

 

Probably fewer than those I described earlier that I take. Here's a summary of how I suspect it goes, selling via a broker.

 

Bloke turns up on a boat at a broker. "Please can you sell my boat?"

 

Broker: "Certainly Sir, we think it will fetch 50p and when we sell it, we'll deduct our 6% selling fee from the proceeds.

 

Bloke: "Brilliant, let know when you've sold it"

 

Broker: "Ok give us the keys and any paperwork you have for the boat, and we'll call you when its sold"

 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Probably fewer than those I described earlier that I take. Here's a summary of how I suspect it goes, selling via a broker.

 

Bloke turns up on a boat at a broker. "Please can you sell my boat?"

 

Broker: "Certainly Sir, we think it will fetch 50p and when we sell it, we'll deduct our 6% selling fee from the proceeds.

 

Bloke: "Brilliant, let know when you've sold it"

 

Broker: "Ok give us the keys and any paperwork you have for the boat, and we'll call you when its sold"

 

 

 

 

 

 

O' so true (in general)

 

I am sure there must be one or two that actually use the Federation code of practice, but I have yet to find, or hear of an Inland Waterways Broker who does.

Admittedly Of the 18 boats I have bought in the last few years most of them have been 'private' purchases and I have done my own due-diligence.

 

An interesting 'Broker fact' :

 

There is no general legal obligation on either Seller or broker to disclose the existence of defects to a prospective Buyer, unless, of course, they are asked a specific question, which is why a survey is essential. 
 
Nevertheless the RYA, the BMF and the ABYA believe that it is good practice for a broker to fairly represent a boat being offered for sale and should therefore disclose any defects made know to them by the Seller. 
 
A standard disclaimer will be included in the brokers Agreement with the Seller, the purpose of which is to protect a broker against complaints by a Buyer that the broker’s published particulars of a boat are wrong, in circumstances where the broker has relied on the Seller’s information when writing those particulars. 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

O' so true (in general)

 

I am sure there must be one or two that actually use the Federation code of practice, but I have yet to find, or hear of an Inland Waterways Broker who does.

Admittedly Of the 18 boats I have bought in the last few years most of them have been 'private' purchases and I have done my own due-diligence.

 

An interesting 'Broker fact' :

 

There is no general legal obligation on either Seller or broker to disclose the existence of defects to a prospective Buyer, unless, of course, they are asked a specific question, which is why a survey is essential. 
 
Nevertheless the RYA, the BMF and the ABYA believe that it is good practice for a broker to fairly represent a boat being offered for sale and should therefore disclose any defects made know to them by the Seller
 
A standard disclaimer will be included in the brokers Agreement with the Seller, the purpose of which is to protect a broker against complaints by a Buyer that the broker’s published particulars of a boat are wrong, in circumstances where the broker has relied on the Seller’s information when writing those particulars. 

And that is the key point for the broker "disclose any defects made know(n) to them by the Seller"  - So the old US military 'policy' applies "Don't ask, don't tell".

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11 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

And that is the key point for the broker "disclose any defects made know(n) to them by the Seller"  - So the old US military 'policy' applies "Don't ask, don't tell".

If the Broker says "I don't want to know anything about the boat - don't tell me anything". he can answer the potential buyer in 'good faith' and say "I know of no such problems".

 

Agreed - 'good practice' but not a legal requirement unless the specific question is asked (which you might consider to be) "does the eberspacher work" to which the answer could be yes, that doesn't indicate the CH works or doesn't leak - so the 'specific' question should be :

 

"Does the Eberspacher heat the water and the central heating system work correctly without any leaks of gases, fuel or water ?"

 

That would require a legally binding answer.

 

Some brokers are little more than 'secondhand car dealers' and legality seems to play little part in their business plans.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If the Broker says "I don't want to know anything about the boat - don't tell me anything". he can answer the potential buyer in 'good faith' and say "I know of no such problems".

 

Agreed - 'good practice' but not a legal requirement unless the specific question is asked (which you might consider to be) "does the eberspacher work" to which the answer could be yes, that doesn't indicate the CH works or doesn't leak - so the 'specific' question should be :

 

"Does the Eberspacher heat the water and the central heating system work correctly without any leaks of gases, fuel or water ?"

 

That would require a legally binding answer.

 

Some brokers are little more than 'secondhand car dealers' and legality seems to play little part in their business plans.

To which the answer from the broker could be "I have no reason to think it does not work correctly and without leaks"..................

No easy answer to this.

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And, what checks does an Inland Waterways broker actually do ?

A decent broker will investigate the bill of sale from the seller and if more than one name appears  on it, will refuse to sell the boat without signed permission of the 2nd named owner.

A decent broker, following a survey pointing out serious defects, will not allow the sale to continue unless the seller puts right those defects or reduces the price accordingly so the buyer can use the difference to remedy the faults.

These brokers do exist.

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6 minutes ago, matty40s said:

A decent broker will investigate the bill of sale from the seller and if more than one name appears  on it, will refuse to sell the boat without signed permission of the 2nd named owner.

Assuming the seller has (or hands over) the bill of sale from when he bought it.

 

6 minutes ago, matty40s said:

These brokers do exist.

They do, but as in many walks of life there are as many rouges rogues as good ones.

 

If the boat that 'calls to you' is with a rogue what can you do ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

A decent broker will investigate the bill of sale from the seller and if more than one name appears  on it, will refuse to sell the boat without signed permission of the 2nd named owner.

A decent broker, following a survey pointing out serious defects, will not allow the sale to continue unless the seller puts right those defects or reduces the price accordingly so the buyer can use the difference to remedy the faults.

These brokers do exist.

I know that all brokers are in the business to make a profit but there are some who I really would trust (more than others) as some one buying rather than selling. Some brokers come across as caring very much about the industry and the people and some come across as less so, once you spoken to the former the latter becomes glaringly obvious and much less appealing.  

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It'll be interesting when I come to sell my boat. I suppose I have receipts for bits and pieces, but the only real proof that I ever bought it is an undated (we just forgot) receipt from a now untraceable bloke. 

I don't recall the OP telling us the name or number of the boat, or where it is, though I may have missed it. Someone here may know its history. 

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1 hour ago, matty40s said:

A decent broker will investigate the bill of sale from the seller and if more than one name appears  on it, will refuse to sell the boat without signed permission of the 2nd named owner.

A decent broker, following a survey pointing out serious defects, will not allow the sale to continue unless the seller puts right those defects or reduces the price accordingly so the buyer can use the difference to remedy the faults.

These brokers do exist.

 

The above comments reflect excactly what we experienced when we bought our boat from Braunstin Boats in 1997 and again when we sold it though Braunston Marina in 2016. Both were very thorough and used a proper witnessed Bill of Sale to validate the purchas/sale. There seems to be a lot of negative stuff in some of the earlier comments, and I wonder how much of that is based upon actual experience, and how much it is based upon uninformed specuation.

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8 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

I wonder how much of that is based upon actual experience, and how much it is based upon uninformed specuation.

I can only comment on my own experiences of two (2) total Shysters posing as Boat brokers (one a very well known broker, in the Midlands) well known for supplying boats to the 'London market'

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16 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

But do you know what are the rusty nuts and which have been cracked in the last year and lots of other things about the boat

It was a new shell with engine when I bought it 30 years ago. The condition of any boat is not what the OP was concerned about. He worries about ownership and validity of sale. Basically, the only purchase you can make with any level of certainty is a house, where the Land Registry has the details you need, (at least most of the time; there have been exceptions)

You also have recourse through your solicitor/conveyancer. Most brokers terms I have seen abrogate this responsibility. In short terms, I would think it is as difficult for another party to prove that you have their boat once you have bought it. As with many things, possession is 9 points of the law.

 

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3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It'll be interesting when I come to sell my boat. I suppose I have receipts for bits and pieces, but the only real proof that I ever bought it is an undated (we just forgot) receipt from a now untraceable bloke. 

I don't recall the OP telling us the name or number of the boat, or where it is, though I may have missed it. Someone here may know its history. 

Boat's name is Eden, number 77425. Anybody know anything about it? Have already checked it in the Canalplan website, but the info there does not give away much...

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16 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Twas always thus. Hence why the chancers steal boats of medium value and try to flog them off.

If I were buying this boat I would want some solid proof of identity and a way of finding the guy in future. What is to say that he has not simply "borrowed" it from the hard standing, had it launched and flogged it?

Does the yard where it was know any solid facts about the boat?

Boat is still in hard standing at the moment, I will contact the boat yard to find out how long has the boat been there, who has been paying for the works, etc., thanks for the advice.

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1 hour ago, Ex Brummie said:

It was a new shell with engine when I bought it 30 years ago. The condition of any boat is not what the OP was concerned about. He worries about ownership and validity of sale. Basically, the only purchase you can make with any level of certainty is a house, where the Land Registry has the details you need, (at least most of the time; there have been exceptions)

You also have recourse through your solicitor/conveyancer. Most brokers terms I have seen abrogate this responsibility. In short terms, I would think it is as difficult for another party to prove that you have their boat once you have bought it. As with many things, possession is 9 points of the law.

 

The point I was trying to make was that you know your boat inside out and would probably be able to assure every one that you didn't just happen to find it somewhere last month.

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1 hour ago, Ex Brummie said:

It was a new shell with engine when I bought it 30 years ago. The condition of any boat is not what the OP was concerned about. He worries about ownership and validity of sale. Basically, the only purchase you can make with any level of certainty is a house, where the Land Registry has the details you need, (at least most of the time; there have been exceptions)

There are 100's of boats which are legally registered on the Small Ships Register a 'service' run by the Government/

Part 1 of the SSR gives / proves full legal title,  details of any outstanding finance etc etc.

 

Many of us actually register our boats on the SSR Part 3 register which provides some level of 'proof' but principally is used as evidence of UK Registry when travelling outside of UK waters.

 

https://www.gov.uk/register-a-boat/the-uk-ship-register

Part I registration

Register your boat on the Part I register if you want to:

  • prove you own the boat
  • prove your boat’s nationality
  • use the boat as security for a marine mortgage
  • register a pleasure vessel
  • get ‘transcripts of registry’, which show the boat’s previous owners and whether there are any outstanding mortgages

Your boat must have a unique name to be registered.

It costs £153 to register for 5 years.

Part III registration

Register your boat on the Part III (Small Ships Register) if you want to prove the boat’s nationality when sailing outside UK waters.

It costs £55 for 5 years.

To be eligible:

  • your boat must be less than 24 metres long
  • you must be a private individual (not a company)
  • you must live in the UK for at least 185 days of the year
  • your boat must have a name

For more information, read the full guidance notes.

You can make changes to an existing registration online, for example change of ownership, address or boat details.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the SSR registration for my Cruiser (I have removed the personal details from the 'middle' of the certificate

image.png.b9fb96c0631e2e9124d741d2c3670905.png

image.png.258852155497df4087b44f7a86b78ca9.png

 

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are 100's of boats which are legally registered on the Small Ships Register a 'service' run by the Government/

Part 1 of the SSR gives / proves full legal title,  details of any outstanding finance etc etc.

 

Many of us actually register our boats on the SSR Part 3 register which provides some level of 'proof' but principally is used as evidence of UK Registry when travelling outside of UK waters.

 

https://www.gov.uk/register-a-boat/the-uk-ship-register

Part I registration

Register your boat on the Part I register if you want to:

  • prove you own the boat
  • prove your boat’s nationality
  • use the boat as security for a marine mortgage
  • register a pleasure vessel
  • get ‘transcripts of registry’, which show the boat’s previous owners and whether there are any outstanding mortgages

Your boat must have a unique name to be registered.

It costs £153 to register for 5 years.

Part III registration

Register your boat on the Part III (Small Ships Register) if you want to prove the boat’s nationality when sailing outside UK waters.

It costs £55 for 5 years.

To be eligible:

  • your boat must be less than 24 metres long
  • you must be a private individual (not a company)
  • you must live in the UK for at least 185 days of the year
  • your boat must have a name

For more information, read the full guidance notes.

You can make changes to an existing registration online, for example change of ownership, address or boat details.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the SSR registration for my Cruiser (I have removed the personal details from the 'middle' of the certificate

image.png.b9fb96c0631e2e9124d741d2c3670905.png

image.png.258852155497df4087b44f7a86b78ca9.png

 

How did you prove to them that you owned the boat to register it.

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21 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok, getting real. I have bought a number of boats over the years and there is definitely a culture of trust which you are upsetting by asking some possibly not very literate seller to sign a legal-looking document. I'd be wary too. On the other hand you need to know the boat really belongs to him and here your spidey senses come into play. Does he know the boat well? (E.G. was he able to show you where the water pump was when you asked, with no hesitation? Could he tell you who last serviced the engine? What was his opinion of the last boatyard to haul it out and black it?)

 

And obviously does he have a sheaf of paperwork that goes with the boat? Any of it with his name on?

 

From the bit about him not being registered with CRT as the licence holder, did you ask how long he has owned it? If a long time then where WAS it licenced? On say, the Thames? Where DID he have it licensed? Or if he has only just bought it, have you seen the receipt? 

 

He obviously doesn't live on the boat so where does he live? One of my favourite ways of checking is to visit the address of the seller (make some excuse) to check he actually answers the door. Then run a Land Registry check on the address to see if the owner has the same name. If the boat sale turns out to be fraudulent you can be pretty sure the home address you've been given will be false, and vice versa.

 

 

 

Nice advice, thanks. The guy has just owned it a couple of months, and it has been at a hard standing, apparently (will confirm that with marina tomorrow), so was never licensed in any way, neither does he have a receipt of purchase ('can't find it').

On 01/12/2018 at 17:42, john6767 said:

If it is not on CRT waters then yes, you will be looking for a registration with a different navigation authority, and the same applies with them.  If it is temporarily out of that water from CRT water, then any genuine owner would have registered as the owner with CRT and declared it out of that water, ie no licence needed.  Any other behaviour is not normal and raises a red flag.

You have a fair point, thanks. If we assume the boat was purchased while at a hard standing, then from what I understand the new owner could have still registered it with the CRT without paying for a license. But is it actually their responsibility to do so after purchasing? 

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On 01/12/2018 at 14:50, Mad Harold said:

You definitely need to know the boat is theirs to sell.  Original bill of sale,mooring invoice,bills for work done with the vendor's name on them,vendors home address.and a signed declaration that there is no outstanding finance or loan with the boat as security.

Hi Harold, do you happen to know of templates available online for the declaration for no outstanding finance? Alternatively, if my seller just improvises a few sentences on a piece of paper and signs it, saying that the boat has no debt (like he wants to do), is that any good for the future? I know there might not be a straightforward answer to this question, but perhaps somebody with experience on here could share their perspective...

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20 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

How did you prove to them that you owned the boat to register it.

With Part 3 you don't have to.

Part 1 is much, much more involved, including a 'declaration of eligibility for both the owner and the boat, a minimum of 5 years of Bill of sale documents (inc the builders original BoS) and supporting documents including :

certificate of survey for tonnage and measurement

international tonnage certificate if the boat is over 24 metres

certificate of incorporation if you’re registering on behalf of a company

deletion certificate if your boat was previously on another register

confirmation of radio call sign if you have one.

 

Both registration & de-registration is a serious matter and must be approved by the relevant Government Departments. (The Minister For Marine Affairs) When I bought the 'Cat' we had to de-register from the Croatian national list before we could get her put on the UK registration.

This involved signing an affidavit that she would be leaving the country - this was witnessed and signed by an Attorney. 

 

You are probably not interested but attached is the sworn copy of our De-Registration. (Agreed by the Marine Minister of Croatia).

 

OK - its too big at 3mb (apparently I can only post 296Kb at a time) so I won't bore you with it.

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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On 01/12/2018 at 14:46, Alan de Enfield said:

Receipts with their name on them would provide the nearest you can get to proof of boat ownership - it shows a connection to the boat over a period of time.

It is quite possible he bought it as a 'wreck' had it stored on the 'hard' for some months whilst he re-fitted it (and therefore didn't need a licence) and is now selling it.

So not being licensed is not a big issue.

 

My concerns would be :

He refuses to sign a standard bill-of-sale

It is priced (seemingly) way below market value.

 

If it is too good to be true …………………………….

 

Are you prepared to divulge the sort of price level we are talking about ?

I'm assuming its not a £100,000 boat in which case £4k 'underpriced' is a small percentage, whilst if its a £15k boat its a huge percentage.

 

Is the seller an Nigerian Price by any chance ?

The boat costs less than 15k, therefore the 4k underpricing (according to my seller) comes to around 30% of the value.... would the price in itself be a point of concern to me, as the icing on the cake of the rest of my concerns? :D

3 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

It was a new shell with engine when I bought it 30 years ago. The condition of any boat is not what the OP was concerned about. He worries about ownership and validity of sale. Basically, the only purchase you can make with any level of certainty is a house, where the Land Registry has the details you need, (at least most of the time; there have been exceptions)

You also have recourse through your solicitor/conveyancer. Most brokers terms I have seen abrogate this responsibility. In short terms, I would think it is as difficult for another party to prove that you have their boat once you have bought it. As with many things, possession is 9 points of the law.

 

The OP is a she. Women can buy boats too, you know ;)

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13 minutes ago, leafofgrass said:

The boat costs less than 15k, therefore the 4k underpricing (according to my seller) comes to around 30% of the value.... would the price in itself be a point of concern to me, as the icing on the cake of the rest of my concerns? :D

You can look at it in different ways :

1) The owner knows very little about boats and their value and is pricing it for what he wants for it. Everything is Kosher.

2) The owner knows it is a 'bit iffy',background is suspicious,  wants to move it quickly with the buyer thinking I must move quickly, its a bargain and someone else will get it.

 

30 years ago I'd have thought "No1" but today with all of the 'scrotes' about I'd lean more towards "No2"

 

With the internet and the number of brokers there are, it's easy for anyone to find a comparison to value their boat against.

 

Only you can decide if you are satisfied or you want to take the risk, no one can (or should) tell you how to spend your hard earned money.

 

Speak to the owner of the hard standing and see if he can (or will) reveal any history or details of the current owner.

 

Just go into it with eyes open.

 

The fact you have been 'allowed' to have a survey helps calm the nerves a bit - normally with an 'iffy' boat when you ask for a survey you'd get something like "you obviously like it, I've got someone else coming this afternoon with cash so if you don't do the deal now you lose it".

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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28 minutes ago, leafofgrass said:

The OP is a she. Women can buy boats too, you know ;)

 

Or more accurately, women also can attempt to sell boats they don't own to mugs willing to ignore all the warning signals because they are in love with the low low price, you know. 

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