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Bill of purchase and CRT transfer of ownership form - both necessary?


leafofgrass

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Hi all, I would really appreciate your help!

 

I have found a lovely boat, got it surveyed, agreed on a price with the seller, arranged to have it transported across the country to London. However, just after we agreed on the price with the seller, I sent them a contract which I wanted both of us to sign - a pretty standard template "CONDITIONAL AGREEMENT FOR THE PURCHASE OF A SECOND- HAND VESSEL" which can be found online. However, they refused, saying that the language was too complicated, and refused to sign any kind of contract - saying it is not necessary. My first question is whether we definitely need to sign a contract, and whether the simple RYA 'Bill of Sale' available online would be sufficient (some argue this particular Bill of sale does not address the matter of outstanding payments/mortgages on the boat - I'd appreciate your take on this). 

 

My second questions is related to proof of ownership - this seller does not have any kind of document to prove the boat is theirs, and furthermore - they never registered it with the CRT (claiming that in the last few months while they owned it, it has been out of the water). Therefore, if this person is not the license holder according to the CRT, will they be able to transfer me ownership of the boat?

 

My final question is related to the process of transfer of ownership itself - acc. to the CRT website, it is the responsibility of the seller to contact them and let them know that they have transferred ownership of the boat to me (as outlined on the CRT website here: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/buy-your-boat-licence/licensing-faqs#buying). However, the seller argues they will not have such a responsibility, and that when I transfer the full sum, I will simply call the CRT to say I have come in possession of the boat. Is this true - is a phone call from me sufficient, or we would still have to fill out the CRT Transfer of ownership form? Can we even fill out this form, if somebody who is not the current (proclaimed) owner holds the license to the boat? (Admittedly I do not know if that license is still valid, will be calling up CRT first thing Monday morning to find out.)

 

I know this all seems too dodgy, so I would really appreciate your advice on what would be the wisest course of action for me to follow, and which are the conditions that I must insist on from the seller (like signing the bill of purchase and/or contacting the CRT to transfer ownership to me). Thank you all in advance!

 

Leaf of grass

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It could well be true, but for me it sounds 'well dodgy'.

He refuses to sign anything saying he has sold it to you.

He is not the registered owner (as far as C&RT are concerned)

He has no evidence of owning the boat.

 

Has he shown you anything boat related that has his name and address on it ?

(His purchase receipt, moorings receipts, lift out onto the yard invoice / receipt, even receipts for oil filters or servicing)

 

Is it a bargain, or is the price at around 'market rate' ?

 

It may well be 'as good as it sounds' but you may also end up losing 'your life savings'.

 

C&RT have absolutely no interest in where it came from - I bought a boat that had never been on C&RT waters, paid my £20 to get a registration number and then licenced it. They have their money, no concerns if it is stolen or not.

 

Is it C&RT registered (does it have a registration number plate on it) ?

You could maybe find out who the previous owner is, or ask C&RT to contact them and check if it is stolen (they won't tell you who owned it, but they may help out if you explain the circumstances.

 

DON'T part with any money until you are convinced  it is safe to do so.

 

Tread carefully,  without more information that's about the best advice you'll get.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Might be worth finding the previous owner. Also there  should  be a history  of  registration with CRT,  boat safety certificates etc.

 

Boat name and CRT registration number can be checked on line.

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Hi Alan, no I have not seen any document bearing their name, I will ask again in hopes I can at least see some receipts (but again, if they don't have a license for the boat, what would the receipts serve to prove?)

 

Price-wise, boat is going for 4k less than what my surveyor valued it at - most peculiar.....

 

Hey Paul - CRT unfortunately cannot give away the name of the current licenser, due to data protection. I already have the boat name and reg number - can I find an archive myself online of the history of registration of the boat? Thank would indeed be useful.

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6 minutes ago, leafofgrass said:

if they don't have a license for the boat, what would the receipts serve to prove?)

Receipts with their name on them would provide the nearest you can get to proof of boat ownership - it shows a connection to the boat over a period of time.

It is quite possible he bought it as a 'wreck' had it stored on the 'hard' for some months whilst he re-fitted it (and therefore didn't need a licence) and is now selling it.

So not being licensed is not a big issue.

 

My concerns would be :

He refuses to sign a standard bill-of-sale

It is priced (seemingly) way below market value.

 

If it is too good to be true …………………………….

 

Are you prepared to divulge the sort of price level we are talking about ?

I'm assuming its not a £100,000 boat in which case £4k 'underpriced' is a small percentage, whilst if its a £15k boat its a huge percentage.

 

Is the seller an Nigerian Price by any chance ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Looks suspicious. 

Refusing to sign a purchase agreement on the grounds of it being too complicated sounds like bullshine to me.

Not registering ownership with CRT because it's been out of the water for the last few months of their ownership sounds like more bullshine. 

Why didn't they register ownership before it was out of the water.?

You definitely need to know the boat is theirs to sell.  Original bill of sale,mooring invoice,bills for work done with the vendor's name on them,vendors home address.and a signed declaration that there is no outstanding finance or loan with the boat as security.

Please be careful!! 

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8 minutes ago, leafofgrass said:

Hi Alan, no I have not seen any document bearing their name, I will ask again in hopes I can at least see some receipts (but again, if they don't have a license for the boat, what would the receipts serve to prove?)

 

Price-wise, boat is going for 4k less than what my surveyor valued it at - most peculiar.....

 

Hey Paul - CRT unfortunately cannot give away the name of the current licenser, due to data protection. I already have the boat name and reg number - can I find an archive myself online of the history of registration of the boat? Thank would indeed be useful.

canal plan.org.uk  Not much info but may be useful.

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3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Walk away

I bought my first boat for cash at the side of the canal with zero paperwork and what I like about boats is the lack of crap we have to put up with regards their ownership. I have bought others from people I know without any paperwork, it means for nowt in most cases. However I am with you on this one, something stinks or else the vendor is being a pratt so I too would leave this one with him/her.

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There does seem to be too many things there that are not the normal behaviour.

 

When they bought the boat you would have thought that they would have had some sort of bill of sale from the person they bought it off, even if it was just hand written on a scap of paper.  If they have nothing at all, very suspicious.

 

Also, even if the boat was out of the water any normal person would have put the boat in their name with CRT at the time they bought it, if they have never done that, it would be a red flag to me.

 

If you do not just walk away, be very careful!

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Just now, john6767 said:

 

Also, even if the boat was out of the water any normal person would have put the boat in their name with CRT at the time they bought it, if they have never done that, it would be a red flag to me.

 

Why? If the boat is out of the water, or on non-CRT waters,  CRT have no interest in it.

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1 hour ago, leafofgrass said:

I have found a lovely boat, got it surveyed, agreed on a price with the seller, arranged to have it transported across the country to London.

You now have a financial commitment in the boat - it will be hard for you to accept the unanimous suggestion from a variety of boat owners with experience (probably) totalling 100's of years, but :

 

Cut you losses (unless he comes up with satisfactory paperwork)

 

Just as a matter of interest how did the survey go ?

Was the bottom thickness tested ?

Any comments from the surveyor on work needed ?

 

Can you reveal the name / number of the boat - it may well be that it is 'known' on this forum and someone will say "no problem known Fred for years, he bought this boat and ………………………"

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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All the points made are valid, of course.  But the agreement you mention refers to being conditional (presumably on survey) whereas, quite probably the deal is, you pay the money and take the boat.  If it meets the deal - a simple receipt for the money for a named/numbered boat would be a good start.

 

Whether the ostensible seller owns the boat is always a tricky question - there is not usually an official register.  So some sort of believable paper trail tying the boat to the seller - and some check on the identity of the seller is as good as it usually gets.

 

It is odd that the seller is reluctant to sign a contract (depending on just what it terms provide).  But if this was a 100% scam, would not the purported seller be likely to sign pretty much anything?  If he doesn't own the boat, your biggest problem is likely to be finding him rather than proving he took your money.

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

 

Why? If the boat is out of the water, or on non-CRT waters,  CRT have no interest in it.

If it is not on CRT waters then yes, you will be looking for a registration with a different navigation authority, and the same applies with them.  If it is temporarily out of that water from CRT water, then any genuine owner would have registered as the owner with CRT and declared it out of that water, ie no licence needed.  Any other behaviour is not normal and raises a red flag.

Edited by john6767
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Ok, getting real. I have bought a number of boats over the years and there is definitely a culture of trust which you are upsetting by asking some possibly not very literate seller to sign a legal-looking document. I'd be wary too. On the other hand you need to know the boat really belongs to him and here your spidey senses come into play. Does he know the boat well? (E.G. was he able to show you where the water pump was when you asked, with no hesitation? Could he tell you who last serviced the engine? What was his opinion of the last boatyard to haul it out and black it?)

 

And obviously does he have a sheaf of paperwork that goes with the boat? Any of it with his name on?

 

From the bit about him not being registered with CRT as the licence holder, did you ask how long he has owned it? If a long time then where WAS it licenced? On say, the Thames? Where DID he have it licensed? Or if he has only just bought it, have you seen the receipt? 

 

He obviously doesn't live on the boat so where does he live? One of my favourite ways of checking is to visit the address of the seller (make some excuse) to check he actually answers the door. Then run a Land Registry check on the address to see if the owner has the same name. If the boat sale turns out to be fraudulent you can be pretty sure the home address you've been given will be false, and vice versa.

 

 

 

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How many sheaves of paperwork does anyone have who is not anally retentive?

If I had to prove ownership of my boat, I would be hard put to find much, maybe a couple of licence reminders. As I do most of my own servicing and maintenance, I don't bother with any bills for lift out etc.. Then again, when I bought my present boat, it was at the yard it was built, and I knew where the seller lived.

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17 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

How many sheaves of paperwork does anyone have who is not anally retentive?

If I had to prove ownership of my boat, I would be hard put to find much, maybe a couple of licence reminders. As I do most of my own servicing and maintenance, I don't bother with any bills for lift out etc.. Then again, when I bought my present boat, it was at the yard it was built, and I knew where the seller lived.

But do you know what are the rusty nuts and which have been cracked in the last year and lots of other things about the boat

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I tend to agree with most of the above, it does all sound a bit dodgy and be very wary, however: 

10 hours ago, leafofgrass said:

My final question is related to the process of transfer of ownership itself - acc. to the CRT website, it is the responsibility of the seller to contact them and let them know that they have transferred ownership of the boat to me (as outlined on the CRT website here: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/buy-your-boat-licence/licensing-faqs#buying). However, the seller argues they will not have such a responsibility, and that when I transfer the full sum, I will simply call the CRT to say I have come in possession of the boat. Is this true - is a phone call from me sufficient, or we would still have to fill out the CRT Transfer of ownership form?

When I bought my boat I called the CRT the day before I made the final payment and became the legal owner and they were quite happy to transfer ownership to me on their system (and sell me a licence) without any input from the previous owner.

 

It is all a bit vague with boat ownership - I bought my boat through a broker so had a reasonable level of security, however I paid lots of money and took it away without ever seeing any proof of ownership (that for what it's worth came through the post later and the only proof I have of ownership is the receipts for what I paid and the contract we made).

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16 minutes ago, aracer said:

 

 

It is all a bit vague with boat ownership - I bought my boat through a broker so had a reasonable level of security, however I paid lots of money and took it away without ever seeing any proof of ownership (that for what it's worth came through the post later and the only proof I have of ownership is the receipts for what I paid and the contract we made).

Twas always thus. Hence why the chancers steal boats of medium value and try to flog them off.

If I were buying this boat I would want some solid proof of identity and a way of finding the guy in future. What is to say that he has not simply "borrowed" it from the hard standing, had it launched and flogged it?

Does the yard where it was know any solid facts about the boat?

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8 hours ago, aracer said:

 

When I bought my boat I called the CRT the day before I made the final payment and became the legal owner and they were quite happy to transfer ownership to me on their system (and sell me a licence) without any input from the previous owner.

 

 

CRT didn't transfer ownership,  they just altered the name of whoever pays for the licence.

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8 hours ago, aracer said:

I bought my boat through a broker so had a reasonable level of security

 

Lol, can we stamp that one out right now?

 

How exactly, does buying through a broker give you ANY more security than if you run the same checks yourself that the broker does?

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