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Ribble Link Query


Wanderer Vagabond

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15 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

No, Alan H.

My wife hates rivers and tidal ones even more so so we had a pilot recommended by the Boatyard at Tarleton. Jim Wilkinson. Best £50 ever. So knowledgeable about the river. 

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3 hours ago, rgreg said:

It's a strange feeling isn't it. You think you are motoring along until you check a transit line against the bankside and realise you are stationary or, indeed, going backwards! 

Indeed.....also the other boat we were transiting back with then went steaming past the Asland lamp and was heading to the Isle of Man despite us telling him he’d missed it via VHF....when he eventually turned and caught us up just before Tarleton he said he & his wife had been “discussing if they should have turned”.....their faces said a lot more!!!

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I know there are variables in this passage, but what would normally be a safe number of days to reserve in order to go from Lathom top lock to Tewitfield and back, with time to allow a detour to Glasson dock? I'd love to do it but, since I keep my boat on the Shropshire Union, it might be difficult to find the time.

 

Would a Beta 20-powered cruiser cope in the tidal section in normal conditions?

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8 minutes ago, Philip said:

I know there are variables in this passage, but what would normally be a safe number of days to reserve in order to go from Lathom top lock to Tewitfield and back, with time to allow a detour to Glasson dock? I'd love to do it but, since I keep my boat on the Shropshire Union, it might be difficult to find the time.

 

Would a Beta 20-powered cruiser cope in the tidal section in normal conditions?

According to the Canal planner website, one I often use, with a leisurely pace of 4 hours cruising a day it says you'd take 12 days (50 hours) to do it. Obviously if you increase daily cruising hours it'll take less time.

 

I'm hoping your engine is powerful enough since I'm intending to do it with a Lister LPW which also doesn't really like pushing too much current, but the gist I'm getting here is that the trip is around the slack water end of the high tide (between a couple of hours before high tide to a couple of hours after) so hoping not to be pushing too much current (working on the 12ths rule, assuming it's not a strange tidal system like the Trent).

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3 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

According to the Canal planner website, one I often use, with a leisurely pace of 4 hours cruising a day it says you'd take 12 days (50 hours) to do it. Obviously if you increase daily cruising hours it'll take less time.

 

I'm hoping your engine is powerful enough since I'm intending to do it with a Lister LPW which also doesn't really like pushing too much current, but the gist I'm getting here is that the trip is around the slack water end of the high tide (between a couple of hours before high tide to a couple of hours after) so hoping not to be pushing too much current (working on the 12ths rule, assuming it's not a strange tidal system like the Trent).

Whilst the passage times are set to make the transit as easy as possible, predicting tides is not as precise a science as some people like to think. Firstly, the passage involves a change in the tide direction so the balance between the two has to be estimated. Secondly, the flow of the tide on any river is dependent not only on the moon etc but also the amount of fresh from recent rainfall.

 

You will not be allowed out of the passage is expected to be unsafe but things can change between departure and arrival and you may well be diverted to Preston at the last minute. You may get into a situation where best possible speed is called for (by the officials at Preston) in order to ensure that you make it into the outer dock before it dries out and leaves you on the mud.

 

I would not want to deter anyone from experiencing the transit but it is as well to have a reserve of engine capacity to cope with the unexpected - as with any tidal stretch.

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6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Whilst the passage times are set to make the transit as easy as possible, predicting tides is not as precise a science as some people like to think. Firstly, the passage involves a change in the tide direction so the balance between the two has to be estimated. Secondly, the flow of the tide on any river is dependent not only on the moon etc but also the amount of fresh from recent rainfall.

 

You will not be allowed out of the passage is expected to be unsafe but things can change between departure and arrival and you may well be diverted to Preston at the last minute. You may get into a situation where best possible speed is called for (by the officials at Preston) in order to ensure that you make it into the outer dock before it dries out and leaves you on the mud.

 

I would not want to deter anyone from experiencing the transit but it is as well to have a reserve of engine capacity to cope with the unexpected - as with any tidal stretch.

I agree, but the illusion isn't helped when you look at Tide Tables which tell you that High Tide will be at 12.23hrs (for instance) rather than the reality of 12.20hrs plus or minus about 10 minutes. When we took the run back to Selby from Barmby Lock on the Ouse, we got to Selby about 25 minutes after what should have been High Tide and the damn thing was still flooding.

 

It was the question of having to run at full throttle that led to my original query of why they make the run against the tide. I've been on some tidal rivers (Thames,Severn,Trent,Avon etc) but have always tried to use the tide to my advantage, not fight against it. I'm aware of the advice to fill water tanks before the Ribble Link passage so that if the engine starts to overheat you can run all of the water out of the calorifier to give additional cooling, its just that not having to do that would have been preferable.

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12 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I agree, but the illusion isn't helped when you look at Tide Tables which tell you that High Tide will be at 12.23hrs (for instance) rather than the reality of 12.20hrs plus or minus about 10 minutes. When we took the run back to Selby from Barmby Lock on the Ouse, we got to Selby about 25 minutes after what should have been High Tide and the damn thing was still flooding.

 

It was the question of having to run at full throttle that led to my original query of why they make the run against the tide. I've been on some tidal rivers (Thames,Severn,Trent,Avon etc) but have always tried to use the tide to my advantage, not fight against it. I'm aware of the advice to fill water tanks before the Ribble Link passage so that if the engine starts to overheat you can run all of the water out of the calorifier to give additional cooling, its just that not having to do that would have been preferable.

My very limited experience of the Ribble crossing is that the lock keeper (who used to be very experienced) adjusted the time that boats were let out from Tarleton on the basis of experience and 'reading' the river conditions. Whilst lock keepers are not infallible (I also know that from experience elsewhere!) I would never disregard their advice. Last year we failed to make our trip in mid summer from Selby up to York because the keeper so advised - despite some other boat owners claiming to know better (but then they had sea going boats and went downstream) Instead we visited York by train and when we saw the state of the river and the moorings we were glad that w had heeded the advice - it would have just been feasible (as an arriving narrowboat demonstrated) but there would have been a very nervous night not to mention considerable worry on the way up about whether a mooring was possible - the intervening lock might also have been out of action. It is rare on a canal boat that there is a major imperative to travel a particular route on a particular day. Our jobs does not depend on it but our lives might (in the opposite direction)

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5 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

My very limited experience of the Ribble crossing is that the lock keeper (who used to be very experienced) adjusted the time that boats were let out from Tarleton on the basis of experience and 'reading' the river conditions. Whilst lock keepers are not infallible (I also know that from experience elsewhere!) I would never disregard their advice. Last year we failed to make our trip in mid summer from Selby up to York because the keeper so advised - despite some other boat owners claiming to know better (but then they had sea going boats and went downstream) Instead we visited York by train and when we saw the state of the river and the moorings we were glad that w had heeded the advice - it would have just been feasible (as an arriving narrowboat demonstrated) but there would have been a very nervous night not to mention considerable worry on the way up about whether a mooring was possible - the intervening lock might also have been out of action. It is rare on a canal boat that there is a major imperative to travel a particular route on a particular day. Our jobs does not depend on it but our lives might (in the opposite direction)

Yes, I will also seek advice from lock-keepers who are, after all, at the scene every day rather than us once in a blue moon travellers through their patch. I also took the advice of the Selby lock-keeper when we passed through on the way up to York. There was quite a lot of fresh water coming down and he advised waiting for a couple of days for it to settle, which is what we did. On the other hand those who chose not to take his advice took something over 6 hours to get to York since the tide never really flooded at all, the flow just slowed down a bit when the tide turned. Two days later and we had a much easier passage taking about 3 1/2 hours (possibly less) if I remember correctly.

 

The only time I recall not taking a Lock-keepers advice was going from Teddington to Brentford on the Thames. I'd worked out my expected travelling time and set off with the hope of getting to Brentford either at slack water high tide or just before because it is a bit of a dog-leg turning at Brentford Junction which would be easier if I had either no flow or slight flooding tide (an ebbing tide would possibly carry you sideways past the junction as you turned). The lock-keeper was insistent that I was setting off too early but let me go anyway, we arrived at Brentford Junction pretty much exactly on slack water and the turn was a doddle.

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15 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Yes, I will also seek advice from lock-keepers who are, after all, at the scene every day rather than us once in a blue moon travellers through their patch. I also took the advice of the Selby lock-keeper when we passed through on the way up to York. There was quite a lot of fresh water coming down and he advised waiting for a couple of days for it to settle, which is what we did. On the other hand those who chose not to take his advice took something over 6 hours to get to York since the tide never really flooded at all, the flow just slowed down a bit when the tide turned. Two days later and we had a much easier passage taking about 3 1/2 hours (possibly less) if I remember correctly.

 

The only time I recall not taking a Lock-keepers advice was going from Teddington to Brentford on the Thames. I'd worked out my expected travelling time and set off with the hope of getting to Brentford either at slack water high tide or just before because it is a bit of a dog-leg turning at Brentford Junction which would be easier if I had either no flow or slight flooding tide (an ebbing tide would possibly carry you sideways past the junction as you turned). The lock-keeper was insistent that I was setting off too early but let me go anyway, we arrived at Brentford Junction pretty much exactly on slack water and the turn was a doddle.

You'll find that the Ribble Link is very efficiently controlled at both ends and manned by excellent regular teams; nipping out early or late is not really an option.

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1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I also took the advice of the Selby lock-keeper when we passed through on the way up to York. There was quite a lot of fresh water coming down and he advised waiting for a couple of days for it to settle, which is what we did. On the other hand those who chose not to take his advice took something over 6 hours to get to York since the tide never really flooded at all, the flow just slowed down a bit when the tide turned. Two days later and we had a much easier passage taking about 3 1/2 hours (possibly less) if I remember correctly.

This summer, with very low water levels, it took us about 2hrs to Naburn. We were doing 7-8mph through Selby bridge.

 

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52 minutes ago, Señor Chris said:

This summer, with very low water levels, it took us about 2hrs to Naburn. We were doing 7-8mph through Selby bridge.

 

In the summer it took us just under 6 hours Selby to Naburn.  Whilst we were doing over 8mph initially, we soon slowed down as we started to loose the tide.  The following day it was 2 hours from Naburn to York.  So based on that I don’t think 6 hours Selby to York is bad at all.

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33 minutes ago, john6767 said:

In the summer it took us just under 6 hours Selby to Naburn.  Whilst we were doing over 8mph initially, we soon slowed down as we started to loose the tide.  The following day it was 2 hours from Naburn to York.  So based on that I don’t think 6 hours Selby to York is bad at all.

We had the tide with us the whole way - it had just about stopped by the time we got to Naburn.

 

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4 hours ago, john6767 said:

In the summer it took us just under 6 hours Selby to Naburn.  Whilst we were doing over 8mph initially, we soon slowed down as we started to loose the tide.  The following day it was 2 hours from Naburn to York.  So based on that I don’t think 6 hours Selby to York is bad at all.

To correct my earlier comment, what the lockie at Selby told us was that after 6 hours they still hadn't arrived at Naburn since they had been pushing the current all the way. This is referring to two narrowboats that had gone up, Cruisers had no real problem. Since it only took us only about 3 1/2 hours to Naburn I would say their trip was a bit slow.

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8 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

To correct my earlier comment, what the lockie at Selby told us was that after 6 hours they still hadn't arrived at Naburn since they had been pushing the current all the way. This is referring to two narrowboats that had gone up, Cruisers had no real problem. Since it only took us only about 3 1/2 hours to Naburn I would say their trip was a bit slow.

It must be very dependent on the size of the tide.  We came out of Selby as soon as there was enough water to get out, and we only had a good push for say 90 mins, then speed started to drop off from the initial 8mph to around 4mph.  For the last hour we were only doing about 2.5mph.  Looking at my pictures it was 5hr 50min fron Selby lock to Naburn lock, although we did have to wait outside Naburn for a few mins.

 

Anyway back on topic a bit, does the size of the tide vary at lot on the Ribble link.

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On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 22:06, Wanderer Vagabond said:

It was the question of having to run at full throttle that led to my original query of why they make the run against the tide. I've been on some tidal rivers (Thames,Severn,Trent,Avon etc) but have always tried to use the tide to my advantage, not fight against it. I'm aware of the advice to fill water tanks before the Ribble Link passage so that if the engine starts to overheat you can run all of the water out of the calorifier to give additional cooling, its just that not having to do that would have been preferable.

I would suggest that if you need to ensure you have enough water on board to be able to drain the calorifier and use it as a heat sink, then the boat is not suitable for that journey.

 

There are plenty of 'waters' that are suitable for an underpowered / under-cooled boat so there should be no need to put yourself (or rescuers) at risk by going on un-suitable waters.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are plenty of 'waters' that are suitable for an underpowered / under-cooled boat so there should be no need to put yourself (or rescuers) at risk by going on un-suitable waters.

Pity Susie didn't know this:giggles:

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest that if you need to ensure you have enough water on board to be able to drain the calorifier and use it as a heat sink, then the boat is not suitable for that journey.

 

There are plenty of 'waters' that are suitable for an underpowered / under-cooled boat so there should be no need to put yourself (or rescuers) at risk by going on un-suitable waters.

Perhaps you'd best tell CRT to amend their Skippers Guide then:-

 

 
As you
will be sailing in tidal waters for some of your journey you must ensure that your boat is capable
of travelling comfortably at a minimum of 5 knots (app
rox. 6 miles per hour) in still waters. You must
keep your water tanks full and run the hot water system to cool your engine if it becomes overheated.
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1 minute ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Perhaps you'd best tell CRT to amend their Skippers Guide then:-

 

 
As you
will be sailing in tidal waters for some of your journey you must ensure that your boat is capable
of travelling comfortably at a minimum of 5 knots (app
rox. 6 miles per hour) in still waters. You must
keep your water tanks full and run the hot water system to cool your engine if it becomes overheated.

 

I wonder how many NBs can 'comfortably run at 6mph for several hours ?

The 'water tank trick' is a 'get you out of the poop' option which you should never get into if you meet the 1st part.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I wonder how many NBs can 'comfortably run at 6mph for several hours ?

The 'water tank trick' is a 'get you out of the poop' option which you should never get into if you meet the 1st part.

So effectively, no narrow boats should be doing the Ribble Link then?

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