Red Diesel Update - Meeting 20/11/18

[Momac]

2 hours ago, Onionman said:

 

 

But that's all in the past and conveniently forgotten when something like this doesn't go our way.  No, it's the nasty old EU that never gives us nothin'.

Just saying...

True. 

Overall we will all very probably be worse off after  the UK leaves the EU. I voted to remain.

However , given the decision to leave,   we need not obey the ruling regarding the use of red diesel in boats.

 

.

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

True. 

Overall we will all very probably be worse off after  the UK leaves the EU. I voted to remain.

However , given the decision to leave,   we need not obey the ruling regarding the use of red diesel in boats.

 

.

You do if the TM deal is agreed as ALL eu rules continue to be applied  for at least 2 years.  Not quite the Brexit you were expecting is it?

[Momac]

58 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

You do if the TM deal is agreed as ALL eu rules continue to be applied  for at least 2 years.  Not quite the Brexit you were expecting is it?

No it isn't.

We can still choose not to obey the ruling.

[Chewbacka]

54 minutes ago, MartynG said:

No it isn't.

We can still choose not to obey the ruling.

Then under the TM deal we will get fined by the eu court that has jurisdiction over the uk.

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Then under the TM deal we will get fined by the eu court that has jurisdiction over the uk.

Only for 2 years. We’ve been under their thumb for the last 25 years so what’s a couple more?

[furnessvale]

8 hours ago, WotEver said:

Only for 2 years. We’ve been under their thumb for the last 25 years so what’s a couple more?

Have the Italians EVER paid the fines for excessive milk production many years ago, or has it been quietly buried in the usual dodgy EU accounts?

 

George

[mrsmelly]

11 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

Then under the TM deal we will get fined by the eu court that has jurisdiction over the uk.

The sad thing is that you as a UK resident prefer YOUR government to be over ruled by another. Thank cripes there were more about like myself and my parents in the very recent 1930s as left to people with your attitude we now all be speaking german.

[peterboat]

17 hours ago, Onionman said:

 

It's fascinating to me that people are so one-sided on a subject like this.

 

I'm old enough to remember British people in the 1990s travelling across to Belgium (in particular) to buy cars because all the manufacturers charged more for cars sold in the UK than in Europe.  Then the bad old, nasty old EU stepped in and made it illegal for car manufacturers to do so.  It's a decision that has probably saved UK consumers tens of thousands of pounds over the past twenty years (even if you buy used cars, the price has been depressed throughout the period by the lowered cost of new cars). That was a judgment where countries' rules were overruled by the joint sovereignty of the EU, completely and utterly to our benefit.

 

But that's all in the past and conveniently forgotten when something like this doesn't go our way.  No, it's the nasty old EU that never gives us nothin'.

Just saying...

I have a suspicion you are wrong cars are still cheaper/expensive in different countries within the EU

[WotEver]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have a suspicion you are wrong cars are still cheaper/expensive in different countries within the EU

Most definitely. Mercedes for instance. It’s only in the UK that they’re perceived as a prestige vehicle. Elsewhere in Europe they’re used as taxis. 

[ditchcrawler]

 

[Chewbacka]

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

The sad thing is that you as a UK resident prefer YOUR government to be over ruled by another. Thank cripes there were more about like myself and my parents in the very recent 1930s as left to people with your attitude we now all be speaking german.

That’s a rude assumption you made about me.  I simply said what the deal on offer would mean towards ignoring an eu court ruling.  I did NOT say or indicate if I liked the deal (actually I don’t like the proposed deal) nor did I say if I was for or against Brexit.

[mrsmelly]

23 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

That’s a rude assumption you made about me.  I simply said what the deal on offer would mean towards ignoring an eu court ruling.  I did NOT say or indicate if I liked the deal (actually I don’t like the proposed deal) nor did I say if I was for or against Brexit.

Yes fair comment. Problem is at present there are a hell of a lot of people trying to overthrow a majority vote just because it wasnt what they voted for and I have never been able to and never will be able to understand why such a large portion of my countrymen want others to be in a position to overule their own government. Anyway enough of this.

[Tony Brooks]

What I don't understand is how Ms May can talk about the EU being required to negotiate the future arrangements in good faith (or whatever words she uses) yet within hours France and I Think Denmark said they will veto any future agreement if they do not get their own way on fishing quotas and such like. Then they throw their toys out with the Galileo statement rather than negotiating. One thing the EU will not do is negotiate in good faith, proved by their own words & actions.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes fair comment. Problem is at present there are a hell of a lot of people trying to overthrow a majority vote just because it wasnt what they voted for and I have never been able to and never will be able to understand why such a large portion of my countrymen want others to be in a position to overule their own government. Anyway enough of this.

Well I do understand this and I will explain!  It was mostly the younger generation who voted to be ruled by the EU, and there have been a few very interesting debates on radio 4 allowing these youngsters to express their views. Somehow our generation has produced a generation of youngsters who actually like to be part of big organisations and actually want to be told what to do and what to think rather than making their own decisions. I find it all rather depressing so mostly prefer to talk about boats, beer and electricity ?

 

..............Dave

[furnessvale]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

What I don't understand is how Ms May can talk about the EU being required to negotiate the future arrangements in good faith (or whatever words she uses) yet within hours France and I Think Denmark said they will veto any future agreement if they do not get their own way on fishing quotas and such like. Then they throw their toys out with the Galileo statement rather than negotiating. One thing the EU will not do is negotiate in good faith, proved by their own words & actions.

Presumably the £39bn we are giving to the EU as a Christmas present will now have £1.2bn deducted from it, which is the amount the UK has paid into the Galileo project to date.

 

George

[GUMPY]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes fair comment. Problem is at present there are a hell of a lot of people trying to overthrow a majority vote just because it wasnt what they voted for and I have never been able to and never will be able to understand why such a large portion of my countrymen want others to be in a position to overule their own government. Anyway enough of this.

So I have no understanding of this brexit stuff, can you explain just how my family will be better off, have a better standard of living and be able to live better lives if we leave?

I understand we may be able to use red diesel in our boats but that's the only positive benefit I can see so far.

 

I sitting on the fence undecided as I have been for years

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Loddon

[pearley]

On 30/11/2018 at 17:30, Onionman said:

 

It's fascinating to me that people are so one-sided on a subject like this.

 

I'm old enough to remember British people in the 1990s travelling across to Belgium (in particular) to buy cars because all the manufacturers charged more for cars sold in the UK than in Europe.  Then the bad old, nasty old EU stepped in and made it illegal for car manufacturers to do so.  It's a decision that has probably saved UK consumers tens of thousands of pounds over the past twenty years (even if you buy used cars, the price has been depressed throughout the period by the lowered cost of new cars). That was a judgment where countries' rules were overruled by the joint sovereignty of the EU, completely and utterly to our benefit.

 

But that's all in the past and conveniently forgotten when something like this doesn't go our way.  No, it's the nasty old EU that never gives us nothin'.

Just saying...

Pity they don't do the same with wine and beer. 

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

So I have no understanding of this brexit stuff, can you explain just how my family will be better off, have a better standard of living and be able to live better lives if we leave?

I understand we may be able to use red diesel in our boats but that's the only positive benefit I can see so far.

 

I sitting on the fence undecided as I have been for years

 

The longer this lot goes on for the more and more I, as a remainder, become convinced that if we stay we will finally be subsumed into the Franco-German empire that they have been trying as individual countries been trying to create for a thousand years or more. Once the EU moves to majority voting, if it has not done so already, that will be the result. I am now far from sure that getting out of their clutches will not be well worth some loss of living standards.

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, dmr said:

Somehow our generation has produced a generation of youngsters who actually like to be part of big organisations and actually want to be told what to do and what to think rather than making their own decisions

I put it down to being bought up in the 'nanny state' being told what to do from cradle to grave, no 'coming second or losing a race, no failing exams' etc "you were just not yet ready for the challenge".

Everything is planned out no room for initiative.

we have bred a generation of automatons.

 

There was an interesting comparison last year undertaken by the BBC's Culture department - A book written in 1949 "George Orwell's 1984" and 'life today'.

 

So many similarities - one of the many examples :

 

"In 1984 television screens watch you, and everyone spies on everyone else. Today it is social media that collects every gesture, purchase, comment we make online, and feeds an omniscient presence in our lives that can predict our every preference. Modelled on consumer choices, where the user is the commodity that is being marketed, the harvesting of those preferences for political campaigns is now distorting democracy".

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Chewbacka]

17 minutes ago, Loddon said:

So I have no understanding of this brexit stuff, can you explain just how my family will be better off, have a better standard of living and be able to live better lives if we leave?

I understand we may be able to use red diesel in our boats but that's the only positive benefit I can see so far.

 

I sitting on the fence undecided as I have been for years

 

Honestly if anyone really knew the answer to that they would have told us rather than the constant stream of lies, distorting, exaggeration and party point scoring.  I can no longer think of a single politician I trust to even give me an honest guess not coloured by self promotion.

 

Added - for the avoidance of doubt my comments above apply to leave, remain and undecided politicians of all parties.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Chewbacka

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

So I have no understanding of this brexit stuff, can you explain just how my family will be better off, have a better standard of living and be able to live better lives if we leave?

I understand we may be able to use red diesel in our boats but that's the only positive benefit I can see so far.

 

I sitting on the fence undecided as I have been for years

 

If you believe cash is King you may be a few years without seeing any benefit. For myself and others there are far bigger fish that need frying than finance. I doubt we will ever get the cheap red diesel back thats more of a red Herring methinks.

[GUMPY]

I don't believe cash is king but would like to keep my comfortable lifestyle, can't see any point in living like a pauper for the last 20years of my life over some idealogical bo11ox 

[Iain_S]

On 30/11/2018 at 23:50, WotEver said:

Only for 2 years. We’ve been under their thumb for the last 25 years so what’s a couple more?

This should probably be in the Brexit thread, but if the "Deal" comes to pass, it could be a lot longer than that. The transition period (might have got the wrong terminology here) with EU regulations in force, etc.  lasts until agreement is reached on trade agreements, customs arrangements and all the rest. If one side does not want to reach an agreement, an agreement will not be reached, so the "Deal" hands the EU a veto on the UK leaving, while, at the same time, losing UK representation in the European parliament.

 

I'm pretty sure that payment of any fines imposed by the European Court of Justice would be a  prerequisite for any future agreement!

7 hours ago, pearley said:

Pity they don't do the same with wine and beer. 

They do, until the UK government adds its taxation to it!

[aracer]

7 hours ago, dmr said:

Well I do understand this and I will explain!  It was mostly the younger generation who voted to be ruled by the EU, and there have been a few very interesting debates on radio 4 allowing these youngsters to express their views. Somehow our generation has produced a generation of youngsters who actually like to be part of big organisations and actually want to be told what to do and what to think rather than making their own decisions. I find it all rather depressing so mostly prefer to talk about boats, beer and electricity ?

 

..............Dave

Maybe it's just that unlike the older generation who were taken in by lies on the side of a bus they've thought properly about the full implications and realised that whatever problems you might have with the EU we're far better being inside than out. For most brexiteers it appears to be an ideological rather than a pragmatic decision - they don't care that we'll all be worse off so long as decisions get made by the UK with no influence from Johnny foreigner.

[Bee]

7 hours ago, aracer said:

Maybe it's just that unlike the older generation who were taken in by lies on the side of a bus they've thought properly about the full implications and realised that whatever problems you might have with the EU we're far better being inside than out. For most brexiteers it appears to be an ideological rather than a pragmatic decision - they don't care that we'll all be worse off so long as decisions get made by the UK with no influence from Johnny foreigner.

I think you're probably right. I think the UK (or perhaps just the English) sees the French and Germans and probably everybody else on the planet as being some sort of threat and the EU as existing only to push us around. That is a point of view that baffles most of the people I know over the channel but if that really is how the Brexiteers see it then there is never going to be an end to this mess.