Red Diesel Update - Meeting 20/11/18

[Machpoint005]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think the light distillates float on the surface, but the constant agitation from wave action makes it evaporate far more quickly than from the surface of a canal.

 

Yes, the (purely academic) question is how much of it is dispersed, diluted or degraded, and how much evaporates, and the timescale involved.

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Dispersing it doesn't mean it has gone. It means you just can't see it. 

 

Yes, I know. Doesn't stop folks doing it though!

[Tanglewood]

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

You are only talking about the VAT that gets added on top of the base price to which fuel duty has already been added.

Er.. No, that isn't the thrust of my argument.  I know its possible, under certain circumstances,  to reclaim the VAT component, and that that is less than the actual tax on the fuel itself. The point I was making about VAT is that some organisations, such as Councils, do not have to pay VAT on services, however they cannot actually pay less, they have to pay up-front and claim it back.  What I was suggesting that it might be legal for folk to reclaim the fuel tax on the proportion of oil they use for heating, but still pay the full amount up-front to start with.  This might possibly count as the UK imposing the full tax. Its another fudge, but a reversal of the original.  I know there is no mechanism at present.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Yes, the (purely academic) question is how much of it is dispersed, diluted or degraded, and how much evaporates, and the timescale involved.

 

 

There was quite a large diesel slick sloshing around in the pound around the water point at Bedwyn a couple of weeks back. The following day there was no sign of it. Possibly it all went over the bywash at the lock 1/4 mile away but I'm more inclined to think it evaporated. 

 

[Machpoint005]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

There was quite a large diesel slick sloshing around in the pound around the water point at Bedwyn a couple of weeks back. The following day there was no sign of it. Possibly it all went over the bywash at the lock 1/4 mile away but I'm more inclined to think it evaporated. 

 

Or somebody chucked in a large squirt of Fairy?

[carlt]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Because they are continuously leaking it onto the bank and the earth gets saturated. 

 

Diesel, unlike petrol, does not evaporate readily at low temperatures. 

It is not a light oil and, as it is produced from crude at a cracking plant in a refinery, would not be found in an oil rig slick. 

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

That can't be altogether true, obviously there is evaporation but there's all ways a greasy discolouration round even the tidiest diesel tanks. 

 

True. Diesel is the most horrible stuff to work with once it starts getting out of the pipes. 

 

When I was an oil service technician the majority of breakdowns were oil tank problems. I gave it up after my hundredth tramp down a garden path in the rain and the dark, to grope about with a torch under bushes on oil-saturated mud to find out why the oil supply to the boiler had failed. Usually filters but quite often simply an empty tank where a recent delivery had all leaked away. The slightest bump and diesel pipework LOVES to drip, slowly and in perpetuity. 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[Machpoint005]

2 minutes ago, carlt said:

Diesel, unlike petrol, does not evaporate readily at low temperatures. 

It is not a light oil and, as it is produced from crude at a cracking plant in a refinery, would not be found in an oil rig slick. 

They use a lot of refined diesel fuel offshore, though, and it all has to be pumped into tanks.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tanglewood said:

Tax on heating oil is 5%. The tax on the fuel we put in cars is 20%.  There is no reason other than inconvenience (and a huge and massive inconvenience) why fuel oil for propelling boats should not be taxed at 20%.  The issue with self declaration is that it is just that and it does sit comfortably within a system where   a tax is imposed.  However, instead of self declaring,  at purchase, perhaps a system could be devised whereby we all pay the full tax and then claim it back on the fuel we have used for heating, similar to those small businesses which have to pay VAT but can claim it back.

You are confusing Tax with Duty

 

VAT on domestic heating oil & electricity is 5% there is no additional Duty charged.

 

Duty is charged on cigarettes, petrol, beer & spirits and buying a house (stamp duty), ie all 'discretionary luxury goods'.

 

For example Duty on a pints of beer is 50p AND it also incurs VAT at 20% (which is also applied to the Duty) so you are paying tax on a tax.

Duty on petrol & diesel is 57.95p per litre and is again subject to the addition of VAT.

 

Duty and VAT are two totally separate taxes.

 

Which 'small businesses' can claim back VAT ?

Unless you are registered for VAT and hence charge your customers Output VAT I do not know anyway of claiming back input VAT.

When you are reclaiming VAT you have the evidence of having pad the VAT from your suppliers invoices so are able to justify your 'amount reclaimed'

I cannot see anyway that a boater would be able to justify / have supporting evidence to claim exactly the correct amount back for a percentage used for domestic.

 

Edit : I pop out for an hour and there are 'pages' of replies. I missed a page, hence the above is pretty much a duplicate of Alan's post #34

Edited November 30, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Tumshie]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

True. Diesel is the most horrible stuff to work with once it starts getting out of the pipes. 

 

When I was an oil service technician the majority of breakdowns were oil tank problems. I gave it up after my hundredth tramp down a garden path in the rain and the dark, to grope about with a torch finding on oil-saturated mud to find out why the oil supply to the boiler had failed. The slightest bump and diesel pipework LOVES to drip, slowly and in perpetuity. 

I'm also quite convinced that every diesel tank in the country is older than me. 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, carlt said:

It is not a light oil and, as it is produced from crude at a cracking plant in a refinery, would not be found in an oil rig slick. 

 

What do they run their compressors on then? 

Just now, Tumshie said:

I'm also quite convinced that every diesel tank in the country is older than me. 

 

Unlikely. Did we not establish the other day that you are approx 300 years old? Common ground goblins live for an astonishingly long time. 

[Tumshie]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Unlikely. Did we not establish the other day that you are approx 300 years old? Common ground goblins live for an astonishingly long time. 

Well, the nice green double bunded ones you get for domestic heating might be younger than me - but those metal Agricultural and industrial ones, they are definitely all older than me - by at least two hundred years. ?

[rusty69]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

What do they run their compressors on then? 

 

Unlikely. Did we not establish the other day that you are approx 300 years old? Common ground goblins live for an astonishingly long time. 

Is she double bunded too?

[Athy]

Bund....Diesel Bund....licensed to spill.

[rusty69]

Just now, Athy said:

Bund....Diesel Bund....licensed to spill.

[Tumshie]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Is she double bunded too?

 I'm just a little round. 

 

1 minute ago, Athy said:

Bund....Diesel Bund....licensed to spill.

Very clever ?

[rusty69]

8 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

 I'm just a little round. 

I was round, then square.Now I'm just a little cross.

[Tumshie]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I was round, then square.Now I'm just a little cross.

Oh no - don't be cross. Though I must say, you do look a little wind blown, but hey, that's interesting, innit?

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Tumshie said:

I'm also quite convinced that every diesel tank in the country is older than me. 

 

In England, almost all external tanks of 200 litres capacity and over were replaced before 2001 in order to comply with the Oil Storage ( Control of Pollution) England regulation 2001. Tanks have to be integrally bunded in order to comply. 

 

In Scotland almost all tanks whatever their capacity, including internal as well as external tanks, except for domestic oil storage tanks up to 2500 litres were replaced before 2004 in order to comply with the Oil Storage ( Control of Pollution) Scotland land regulation 2004. Tanks have to be bunded in order to comply. 

 

Similar legislation applies to Wales and Northern Ireland as well. ?

Edited November 30, 2018 by cuthound
Spillung

[Bee]

2 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

 

I agree with you, but how would you distinguish between leisure boatowners and liveaboards?  I'm curious as to why you use white diesel, if you don't mind me asking?

The boat is permanently in France/Holland/Belgium so we have no choice, red is not legal in pleasure boats. To be honest it is not a big deal paying a higher price. Boatyards are few and far between and mostly only sell white anyway. Commercials (I think) can use red so I suppose you could just get a few gallons for generators or diesel heaters but I think they fill from tankers. Red must be in separate tanks. Most boats have got a couple of containers and fill them up in supermarkets and filling stations. Diesel was much the same price as here last year but it seems to be getting more expensive now. It varies though, Belgium was cheaper but next year, who knows?

[Tumshie]

13 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

In England, almost all external tanks of 200 litres capacity and over were replaced before 2001 in order to comply with the Oil Storage ( Control of Pollution) England regulation 2001. Tanks have to be integrally bunded in order to comply. 

 

In Scotland almost all tanks whatever their capacity, including internal as well as external tanks, except for domestic oil storage tanks up to 2500 litres were replaced before 2004 in order to comply with the Oil Storage ( Control of Pollution) Scotland land regulation 2004. Tanks have to be bunded in order to comply. 

 

Similar legislation applies to Wales and Northern Ireland as well.

I was just joking. ?

[carlt]

44 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

What do they run their compressors on then? 

 

As we are entering "two wrongs don't make a right territory" I shall dismiss that as irrelevant... 

However if you look up the legislation that oil rigs are bound by and then investigate the frequency of inspection by the enforcing body and compare it to the obvious lack of standards maintained by the average boatyard (if they are bound by any) I imagine there will be a substantial difference. 

It is like comparing a state of the art operating theatre to a victorian sawbones. 

[Alan de Enfield]

For inland waterways boats doing (say) 300 miles per annum its not a huge expense in the greater scheme of things.

Just to make the maths easy lets say

 

1 litre per hour

average 2 miles per hour

300 miles per annum

50p duty per litre

150 litres per annum

 

Total cost of 'duty' element of the fuel cost = £75 per annum.

 

Doing 600 miles per annum = £150 per annum

 

If the domestic 'portion' is now to be subject to duty then there is an incentive to find alternative or more efficient sources for battery charging.

Solar obviously comes to mind and should enable most to become self-sufficient for 6 months of the year, but it is the Winter that is the problem.

 

Just think how lucky you are compared to your 'leisure brother boaters' who have chosen GRP cruisers and lumpy waters who may use 50, 60, or 80 litres an hour. Their duty element of the fuel cost is £25-£40 per hour.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

47 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Is she double bunded too?

 

We can always hope!

 

[Tumshie]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

We can always hope!

 

 I have no idea what that means but it sounds shocking. 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Tumshie said:

 I have no idea what that means but it sounds shocking. 

No me neither .I am shocked at you mtb.....honestly!