Red Diesel Update - Meeting 20/11/18

[Alan de Enfield]

Following the ruling by the European Union Court of Justice against the UK’s use of red diesel by private pleasure craft, representatives from the boating community and boating industry - British Marine, the Cruising Association, the Inland Waterways Association and the Royal Yachting Association - met with HMRC officials on Tuesday 20 November to discuss the implications of the Court’s decision and evaluate the UK’s response. The meeting was extremely informative and productive, and the continued support of the UK Government is welcomed.

In effect, following the Court’s ruling, the expectation of the European Commission is that the UK must stop allowing the use of red diesel for the purposes of propulsion of a private pleasure craft and must therefore switch to white diesel. The UK is required to provide a response to the Commission by 22 December 2018, setting out how it intends to bring the UK into line with the European Directive on fiscal marking of gas oils and kerosene, as well as a timeframe for achieving this.

It remains the position of all the boating representative bodies that a change to using white diesel would create insurmountable problems for boat users and the industry. All the boating representative bodies will therefore be providing evidence of the practical implications to HMRC officials to inform the UK’s response to the Commission in the hope that we can jointly develop a practical and affordable solution in a realistic timeframe.

British Marine will be seeking feedback from its members on a range of questions raised by HMRC. British Marine members with any queries may contact Andrew Harries, Head of External Relations at aharries@britishmarine.co.uk. Further updates will be issued in due course.

 

 

 

And the suggestion from me is "tell them to forget it",  its not long until we are 'out' and then they have no authority what we do with out fuels

Edited November 30, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[mrsmelly]

We are not going to win this one. The overbearing over powerful over here eu will carry on regardless as they are well miffed at our leaving. Of course eu lovers will relish their own country being overuled by a foreign court sitting in a foreign country. Just one of the eu ways at setting taxation for " Independant " countries.

[Athy]

But, as we shall be leaving the EU shortly, why should we comply with this ruling? It is unlikely to come into force before the fateful day.

[KevMc]

'tis simple .... as naturally honest people UK boaters, when buying from canal based vendors, will continue to self report their usage for propulsion and non-propulsion and pay appropriately ... no need to change anything really - except possibly the colour of the diesel if they insist.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

But, as we shall be leaving the EU shortly, why should we comply with this ruling? It is unlikely to come into force before the fateful day.

In your dreams.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, KevMc said:

'tis simple .... as naturally honest people UK boaters, when buying from canal based vendors, will continue to self report their usage for propulsion and non-propulsion and pay appropriately ... no need to change anything really - except possibly the colour of the diesel if they insist.

But that has proven to be not an acceptable alternative to the draconian methods demanded by Brussels.

[Bee]

Well, I suppose the problem is that interested parties, boatowners etc, are having to argue against HMRC. I would imagine that HMRC are charged with raising as much money as they can and even if the government say they are sympathetic to the boatowners point of view they will really want the money raised in tax. I honestly don't know all the ins and outs of this as we use white diesel anyway and it is hard to see why leisure boatowners should get cheaper fuel. 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Bee said:

Well, I suppose the problem is that interested parties, boatowners etc, are having to argue against HMRC. I would imagine that HMRC are charged with raising as much money as they can and even if the government say they are sympathetic to the boatowners point of view they will really want the money raised in tax. I honestly don't know all the ins and outs of this as we use white diesel anyway and it is hard to see why leisure boatowners should get cheaper fuel. 

Because YOUR government says they can.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Bee said:

Well, I suppose the problem is that interested parties, boatowners etc, are having to argue against HMRC

No, HMRC were the ones that introduced the 'rules' for what we have now as a simple and cost effective way of collecting the correct amount of tax - they are "all for it"

 

 

Under EU rules, fuel must be marked with a dye if it is sold at less than the full tax rate. In the UK, most marinas sell red diesel on a 60/40 split of full and lower tax rates for propulsion, and heating or power generation

The EU argued that this practice meant the UK was failing to fulfil its obligations under Council Directive 95/60/EC of 27 November 1995 on fiscal marking of gas oils and kerosene (OJ 1995 L 291, p. 46).

It took the UK to court, and now the European Court of Justice has ruled in favour of the EU, despite Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) arguing that ending the use of red diesel would be impracticable.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[matty40s]

28 minutes ago, Athy said:

But, as we shall be leaving the EU shortly, why should we comply with this ruling? It is unlikely to come into force before the fateful day.

It has actually been in force for a long time, it is just that HMRC have been fighting it in court....and finally lost.

Which probably means they will want backdated monies paid added onto the Brexit exit fee.

[Kawayuppie]

24 minutes ago, Bee said:

 ... it is hard to see why leisure boatowners should get cheaper fuel. 

Some of need to use deisel for heating and generating electricity, thus essential for life.

[Mac of Cygnet]

What do all the boaters in the rest of the EU do?  Just pay the full whack on white diesel without complaint?  Or does nobody heat their boats over there?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Kawayuppie said:

Some of need to use deisel for heating and generating electricity, thus essential for life.

Not really - you have chosen your way of life (living on a boat) why should your costs be artificially low due to reduced taxation ?

(You could live in a house and use Kerosene and 'mains' electricity but you have chosen not to).

[mayalld]

30 minutes ago, Bee said:

Well, I suppose the problem is that interested parties, boatowners etc, are having to argue against HMRC. I would imagine that HMRC are charged with raising as much money as they can and even if the government say they are sympathetic to the boatowners point of view they will really want the money raised in tax. I honestly don't know all the ins and outs of this as we use white diesel anyway and it is hard to see why leisure boatowners should get cheaper fuel. 

The amount raised for the exchequer is minimal, and the potential environmental costs of an end to diesel sales on the canal far exceed the revenue that they would get.

[Mac of Cygnet]

31 minutes ago, Bee said:

Well, I suppose the problem is that interested parties, boatowners etc, are having to argue against HMRC. I would imagine that HMRC are charged with raising as much money as they can and even if the government say they are sympathetic to the boatowners point of view they will really want the money raised in tax. I honestly don't know all the ins and outs of this as we use white diesel anyway and it is hard to see why leisure boatowners should get cheaper fuel. 

 

I agree with you, but how would you distinguish between leisure boatowners and liveaboards?  I'm curious as to why you use white diesel, if you don't mind me asking?

[Kawayuppie]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not really - you have chosen your way of life (living on a boat) why should your costs be artificially low due to reduced taxation ?

(You could live in a house and use Kerosene and 'mains' electricity but you have chosen not to).

Even If one is not living on your boat, you might holiday on it for extended periods. So one can benefit from cheaper fuel for heating & electric.

 

I stand corrected, but doesn’t one pay a lower rate VAT on electric for a domestic supply?

 

Sure I happen to live on a boat at the moment, please don’t hold that against me

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Kawayuppie

[Tanglewood]

Tax on heating oil is 5%. The tax on the fuel we put in cars is 20%.  There is no reason other than inconvenience (and a huge and massive inconvenience) why fuel oil for propelling boats should not be taxed at 20%.  The issue with self declaration is that it is just that and it does sit comfortably within a system where   a tax is imposed.  However, instead of self declaring,  at purchase, perhaps a system could be devised whereby we all pay the full tax and then claim it back on the fuel we have used for heating, similar to those small businesses which have to pay VAT but can claim it back.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Tanglewood
delete extraneous word

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Kawayuppie said:

Even If one is not living on your boat, you might holiday on it for extended periods. So one can benefit from cheaper fuel for heating & electric.

Sure I happen to live on a boat at the moment, please don’t hold that against me.

 

One way for you would be to buy home heating oil (kerosene) at low rate (or zero?) duty and take it to your boat to use in the heating system. This would be fully legal provided you don't put any of it in the engine tank. 

 

 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

Well, I suppose the problem is that interested parties, boatowners etc, are having to argue against HMRC. I would imagine that HMRC are charged with raising as much money as they can and even if the government say they are sympathetic to the boatowners point of view they will really want the money raised in tax. I honestly don't know all the ins and outs of this as we use white diesel anyway and it is hard to see why leisure boatowners should get cheaper fuel. 

Thats a good remainer answer blame out government for an EU ruling!! the first line of the thread tels you who is doing this and it aint our governments the self imposed one of Brussels

[BEngo]

You would not want to put Kero ( 28 sec oil as used by most domestic pressure jet boilers)  in your fuel tank unless you have a gas turbine engine.  It is less viscous, has a lower ignition temperature and lower lubricity. IIRC its Cetane number is low too.  Some vintage diesels might tolerate it but only with some lub oil added.

OTOH Red heating oil ( 35 second) is practically diesel, though it may not have all the Gucci additives for lubricity and Cetane number etc. It is sold for both pot burners and pressure jet burners. Most simple diesels will tolerate it.  Fancy ones with common rails and ECU controlled injection won't.

N

[peterboat]

47 minutes ago, matty40s said:

It has actually been in force for a long time, it is just that HMRC have been fighting it in court....and finally lost.

Which probably means they will want backdated monies paid added onto the Brexit exit fee.

Like the estimated tax bill on drugs and prostitution in this country which the EU wanted their pound of flesh for!!

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

But, as we shall be leaving the EU shortly, why should we comply with this ruling? It is unlikely to come into force before the fateful day.

 

Are you SURE about that...???

 

I think the chances of us leaving have now fallen to approx 50/50, as The Witch's machinations slowly grind towards fruition in the form of a second referendum.

 

Or more accurately, 48/52!!

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit.

[Athy]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Are you SURE about that...???

 

 

I seem to remember that it was decided by a referendum in 2016. Whilst I was very surprised by the decision, it was arrived at democratically so, though I may not be enthusiastic about the prospect, I've accepted it.

[carlt]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Thats a good remainer answer blame out government for an EU ruling!! 

And it is a good ruling too. 

Practically all boatyard fuelling systems are filthy archaic piles of junk that would be shut down immediately if they were on a road side forecourt. 

I already put white in my boat because I value my engine more than a few pence a litre surcharge for getting it out of a clean, modern delivery system. 

If boatyards want to sell fuel then they should use equipment fit for purpose and, considering the amount of money folk spend on their boats I'm surprised that they are content with the crap fuel that is offered to them. 

 

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Are you SURE about that...???

 

I think the chances of us leaving have now fallen to approx 50/50, as The Witch's machinations slowly grind towards fruition in the form of a second referendum.

 

Or more accurately, 48/52!!

Wake up Mike you are dreaming again ?