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I know Im going to get chastised here for not knowing this, but I thought I better ask.

 

As a newbie, I intend to cruise, and obviously would like electric.

 

So running the engine in winter I presume is my only option ? I have 1 starter, 2 leisure, Lead acid. (at the moment).

 

1. Ho long does the engine need to be running each day?

 

2. should I invest in Lithium ...

 

Thanks

Graham

 

 

Edited by Guest
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You 'stuck your neck out' - not really - but have you done any research on here yet??

 

To live in reasonable comfort you need a lot of battery capacity - twice what you suggest

To live in modern style of reasonable comfort - double the above

 

lithiums are high technology and need some care in management.

I suggest NiFe because you can do what you like with them and they still come back. My set is probably 30 years old and still are going strong. The downside is that they are very large.

 

You will probably need to run the engine for 4 hours each day.

 

Now wait for the nay-sayers... 

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19 minutes ago, Charles_Graham said:

I know Im going to get chastised here for not knowing this, but I thought I better ask.

 

As a newbie, I intend to cruise, and obviously would like electric.

 

So running the engine in winter I presume is my only option ? I have 1 starter, 2 leisure, Lead acid. (at the moment).

 

1. Ho long does the engine need to be running each day?

 

2. should I invest in Lithium ...

 

Thanks

Graham

 

 

There are really only two questions that need answering, after that you can install a sytem that meets the criteria and everything is Hunky-Dory.

 

1) How much power (electricity) will I use on a daily / weekly basis ?

2) How am I going to replace that (+10% for inefficiencies)

 

The 1st stage is to do a FULL power audit.

This involves looking at EVERY electrical appliance on board (12v or 230v) looking at its 'wattage' and calculating how many hours a day it is used.

 

As a simple example, take a water pump that runs for 10 minutes, 6 times per day and is rated at 48 watts.

This gives you 48 Wh per day

Divide this by the voltage (notionally 12v) and you get the "AmpHours" you have used.

You have used 4AH per day.

 

Add all of your appliances together and if you are a 'typical' boater it will come to somewhere around 100Ah (between 80Ah-120Ah) 

 

Once you have done that come back onto the forum and you will get guidance as to how to :

 

Decide on what size your battery bank needs to be

How to replace your "100Ah per day".

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Get a little genny for the winter and solar for the summer. The trouble with running your engine is that you are using a very big, expensive item to put a pifflingly small amount of power into batteries. The batteries need to be "fully" charged as often as possible, and getting the last few amps into (LA's) is like watching wall paper dry. That's why all the talk about lithiums, because they will suck the available current in quickly.

One other thing: Battery monitoring. Without reasonably accurate monitoring, you are surely doomed! For LA's a smart gauge AND ammeter. 

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At the start it would be a sail away more or less. So hopefully just some lights, and phone charger. And build it up.

 

so if engine charging isn't enough, how do continuos cruisers survive?

 

jenny?

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18 minutes ago, Charles_Graham said:

At the start it would be a sail away more or less. So hopefully just some lights, and phone charger. And build it up.

 

so if engine charging isn't enough, how do continuos cruisers survive?

 

jenny?

Engine charging IS enough if you run it long enough to replace what you have used (+ 10% to 20% for inefficiencies)

It could be 4, or 6, or even 8 hours a day depending on your usage.

 

The 3 sources of power are :

Run Engine

Solar Power

Generators

 

Have a read of this thread link - it is a process that most new boaters go thru' kill your batteries in the 1st 3 months, 'listen and learn' and try and get better with the next 'set', kill them again and then REALLY learn how to manage batteries for the 3rd set.

 

Johnny London has posted above - this is one of his threads from his early days (3 months) after buying a Sailaway.

 

Hi All,

I picked up my newly built boat in May. It has 4 leisure batteries (100amp hour according to the d of c though they are tricky to get at) and I fitted a Victron 3000 inverter/charger. Only ever used the engine for generating. These days, I'm running the engine for three hours a day and by the next morning the batteries are down to like 11.7 volts or less. The only thing on overnite (aside from the inverter) is the fridge which supposedly takes .52kw/h, and the microwave with its digital clock. I have two or three hours of laptop in the evening for tv etc, and an hour or two of music through a 240v amp which is turned off (not standby) when not in use. Microwave some times for 5-10 mins. The batteries didn't used to go this flat, I can't think what I might be doing differently to cause this? When I first had the boat I was cruising a lot more, though I'm not quite sure when this apparent discharge started.

The fan belt squeaks for a minute when I start the engine but reads well over 14v when charging. A while after and they sit nice and high around 13v.

Surely not knackered the batteries already???

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I run my engine for 3 to 4 hours a day while I am onboard, when we are not there I have a small solar panel that maintains the batteries while I am not on board, about 6 month a year in total. My batteries are 8 years old and one has just gone down.

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3 hours ago, Charles_Graham said:

At the start it would be a sail away more or less. So hopefully just some lights, and phone charger. And build it up.

 

Have you got any idea just how much work you are putting onto your plate? Each and every item you want will have to be learned about, pro's and cons of 12/240v fridges, types of heating etc etc etc.

All the woodwork takes ages - fitting a kitchen every cabinet has to be customised. Something is always in the way of something else. If you bring your personal effects onboard you wont be able to do anything without half an hour of moving stuff both before and after you work. I know - I've done it.

 

I see my battery regime has become a legendary how not too. Yes I knackered my first set in no time at all, and my second. And I have an electronics background (!). It certainly takes some getting your head around just how utterly and unbelievably inefficient L/A's are as an energy storage medium. People say it is expensive to generate your own electricity. That's only partly true - you certainly can't do it for 20p a unit (kw/h) and someone will be along to correct me expressing the units wrongly. But you can generate at a reasonable cost - it is just that such a vast amount of what you produce will not go into the batteries. Imagine pouring a 20 litre jerry can as fast as you can into a tiny bottle with a funnel. The funnel is overfilling and all the "power" is going all over the floor, but if you keep going and going, by the time you have emptied your big expensive can of "power" you will have filled (if you are lucky) your tiny little bottle. Which won't last 5 mins. 

 

I would say - before you worry about anything - get a really good built in generator, a really good set of lithium batteries, and a stack of solar. If you have power then everything else will follow.

 

Good luck.

 

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4 minutes ago, Johny London said:

 

I would say - before you worry about anything - get a really good built in generator, a really good set of lithium batteries, and a stack of solar. If you have power then everything else will follow.

 

Good luck.

 

So,  that's £10K? is that really a viable option?

Edited by LadyG
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Is it really viable to NOT have decent power.

 

If you are being budget conscious, you can pick up low hours fischer panda gennies for a couple of grand on ebay - seen them many times. Solar, you can get all new for a grand or less if you fit yourself. Batteries - well, probably the stickiest issue at the moment, but lithiums anything from a few hundred quid each plus a few hundred for controllers and wiring, up to several grand. So you could possibly do it all for 5k ish but you'd spend a lot of time on researching. 

 

I'm not trying to put anyone off, but if I had my time again I'd get the power right first off.

 

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6 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I'm not trying to put anyone off, but if I had my time again I'd get the power right first off.

 

 

This should be in headlines - if the number of folks who come on here with rose-tinted specs and an experience of living in bricks & mortar now looking to move onto a boat accepted this there would be a lot less threads titled "My brand new batteries have gone flat", instead that look at gas-powered desiccating toilets, Immersion heaters, Microwave ovens etc etc.

 

Power is the most difficult aspect to 'get your head around', sort that and everything else follows on.

 

Do it right and do it once !!

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Depends on skills set and knowledge set.

If someone has to ask on here, I have to assume they have limited understanding and skills, and cash, else they would just ask where best to go to get the job done.

In my  experience, buying second hand stuff is a minefield for the blind, its only after one has a depth of knowledge and practical  experience that one can take advantage of buying second hand stuff.. 

If OP wants to get a lithium system, I suggests he tries Journey with Jono. It's convinced me that I don't want to go down that route at this time.

 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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You should run your engine (or generator) for about two hours everyday, and much longer (about 8 hours) once a week or maybe once a fortnight.

If you have to run for much longer than this then you do not have the correct quantity of batteries and/or size of alternator.

With suitable solar you should be able to run your engine much less when the sun is shining. The sun don't shine much at all in winter.

 

All battery types have pros and cons so ultimately its up to you.

Nickel-Iron works for OldGoat but 99% of boaters choose lead-acid,  I bet he runs Linux on his computer and probably has valves in his sound system, ?

 

...............Dave

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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Depends on skills set and knowledge set.

If someone has to ask on here, I have to assume they have limited understanding and skills, and cash, else they would just ask where best to go to get the job done.

In my  experience, buying second hand stuff is a minefield for the blind, its only after one has a depth of knowledge and practical  experience that one can take advantage of buying second hand stuff.. 

If OP wants to get a lithium system, I suggests he tries Journey with Jono. It's convinced me that I don't want to go down that route at this time.

 

 

 

One problem is not knowing what you don't know.

 

Having quite happily changed the batteries in the kids toys, having quite happily run a car with a 12v lead acid battery why should a boat be any different ?

Why won't a boat engine recharge the batteries in 'minutes' the same as a car engine does ?

If a 100 amp alternator is fitted, why doesn't it put 100 amps per hour back into the batteries ?

If I've got 400amps of batteries why can't I use 400amps ?

Why are my 12v batteries less than 50% charged when the voltmeter is showing 12 volts ?

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

People keep quoting this bloke, has he had his system running for 10 years with no problems

Not sure anyone has a perfect electrickery system, and what was state of the art in 2008 is not leading edge today.

Check it out on youtube, he is showing his install, in great detail, and over several sessions.

Time will tell, but he did not get on with his lead acids, as explained on his vlogs.

I would say he has the most, probably the only, detailed narrowboat lithium/victron install available.

I think he does some promotional work for Victron now, so he must have impressed them.

Discount codes as well.

I suspect Jono knows a bit about electrickery from his previous occupation [BBC], he certainly can talk the talk.

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17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

People keep quoting this bloke, has he had his system running for 10 years with no problems

Those were my thoughts. I have never seen or heard of him. From what I have read between the lines hes someone whos lived aboard for ten minutes and thinks the wheel needs reinventing. I have no problems with fla cheapos but I didnt work out how to make best use of them in one swift move. In fairness though we all blow money on something or other, some people buy or rent new cars which is their choice but the biggest money wasting trick in the book. For myself Ive been married twice and thats about as stupid as it is possible to be so hey ho.

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2 hours ago, dmr said:

You should run your engine (or generator) for about two hours everyday, and much longer (about 8 hours) once a week or maybe once a fortnight.

If you have to run for much longer than this then you do not have the correct quantity of batteries and/or size of alternator.

With suitable solar you should be able to run your engine much less when the sun is shining. The sun don't shine much at all in winter.

 

All battery types have pros and cons so ultimately its up to you.

Nickel-Iron works for OldGoat but 99% of boaters choose lead-acid,  I bet he runs Linux on his computer and probably has valves in his sound system, ?

 

...............Dave

HeHe - that's because folks don't know better... No I don't run Linux - I just swear at  windows 10 when MS insists at downloading huge updates.

Nobody uses NiFe batteries over-here most likely because they take up a helluva lot of space (and are heavy), but for a sailaway it's 'easy' to plan them in. Their characteristics are such that you can't kill them by undercharging and if there's sufficient capacity in your bank that you can get-away with undercharging them in the week and giving a full charge at the weekend (whatever).

Whatever technology you chose it MUST have sufficient resilience / overcapacity to deal with whatever your demand / recharge pattern must be.

You can be a prat - management wise - with NiFes, but not with Lead acid or Lithiums.

Folks in the USofA ise NiFes in a domestic environment because of their resilence. Over here we Faff around  with bad resouced kit and whinge about it...     

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