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How often, it at all, do you change your anti-freeze?


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Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes I get that, but if dogs die from drinking builder's plasticiser I am suspecting it is something else in the plasticise water not ethylene glycol antifreeze, given the very high degree of dilution in plain water. Ethylene glycol won't stand much dilution and stops working if diluted a lot, hence my suspicion some other agent is responsible for the dog's death when it drank the highly diluted plasticiser. 

Fair doos. I'm going with evoplast because that is something that I would have used at that time but it's not some thing am an expert on, so I'm more than happy to be corrected on that substance, or on what might actually have poisoned the dog - but the telling of that story to me was the first time that I ever heard of antifreeze killing a dog which is why it stayed with me. You know me well enough to know that I don't need to be top of the class and I don't mind being corrected, but in this instance the moral of the story remains - just because you have poured the substance some where you think it won't cause any harm does not mean it won't. 

 

:)

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49 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes that must have been very distressing to all. Maybe the anti-freeze was removed from the product due to incident like this. 

 

A goggle yesterday revealed ethylene glycol metabolises eventually into oxalic acid when consumed in large enough quantities by humans. Quite a lot needs to be consumed though, so I still have my doubts about ethylene glycol being the culprit as the builder's drum of water will have been quite heavily diluted. 

 

Not really:  (Wiki) "Ethylene glycol has been shown to be toxic to humans[16] and is also toxic to domestic pets such as cats and dogs. A toxic dose requiring medical treatment varies but is considered more than 0.1 mL per kg body weight (mL/kg) of pure substance. That is roughly 16 mL of 50% ethylene glycol for an 80 kg adult and 4 mL for a 20 kg child. Poison control centers often use more than a lick or taste in a child or more than a mouthful in an adult as a dose requiring hospital assessment."

 

49 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 


 

49 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Y

 

A goggle yesterday revealed ethylene glycol metabolises eventually into oxalic acid when consumed in large enough quantities by humans. Quite a lot needs to be consumed though, so I still have my doubts about ethylene glycol being the culprit as the builder's drum of water will have been quite heavily diluted. 

 

Not really:  (Wiki) "Ethylene glycol has been shown to be toxic to humans[16] and is also toxic to domestic pets such as cats and dogs. A toxic dose requiring medical treatment varies but is

considered more than 0.1 mL per kg body weight (mL/kg) of pure substance. That is roughly 16 mL of 50% ethylene glycol for an 80 kg adult and 4 mL for a 20 kg child. Poison control centers often use more than a lick or taste in a child or more than a mouthful in an adult as a dose requiring hospital assessment."

 

Edited by Mac of Cygnet
triplicate post!
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23 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

At the moment the land based address is occupied (by my daughter) so the central heating is now in regular use and I have no concerns about it freezing this year. I'm going through the handbook of my Nokia 6300 but can't find out how to set up one of these 'app' things your speak of:(

The only WiFi that I have is on the boat with one of these here new-fangled MiFi widgets, there is no WiFi at home (unless I go there with my widget!)

Ah, one of the answers I was looking for, I'll have a check next time I take engine oil to the recycling centre to see if they take antifreeze, I haven't noticed a place for it so far though.

It looks like the one at Middlewich doesn't https://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/waste_and_recycling/using-household-waste-recycling-centres/using-household-waste-recycling-centres.aspx 

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1 hour ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

A toxic dose requiring medical treatment varies but is

considered more than 0.1 mL per kg body weight (mL/kg) of pure substance.

 

Ah now that is a rather misleading statistic to quote. A FATAL dose is way higher. The Wiki page I was reading says almost eight times higher in fact.

 

"Ethylene glycol is highly toxic, with an oral LDLo = 786 mg/kg for humans"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol

 

And 

 

"The orally lethal dose in humans has been reported as approximately 1.4 mL/kg of pure ethylene glycol.[7] That is approximately 224 mL (7.6 oz.) of 50% ethylene glycol for an 80 kg adult and 56 mL (2 oz.) for a 20 kg child."

 

So drinking a third of a pint of 50% antifreeze is a typical lethal dose for an adult. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol_poisoning

 

So yes while very toxic, lets not confuse a toxic does with a lethal dose.

 

 

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Can't face reading this entire thread, but there looks to be some confusion.

Almost all antifreeze is Ethylene Glycol, the pink colour (or purple or whatever) indicates the chemistry of the anti-rust additive, so the pink stuff is not really any less toxic than the blue stuff etc.

I always thought that it was mostly cats that died from drinking antifreeze as they wonder free and explore and so are more likely to find the drip tray in the garage!

If anybody thinks antifreeze has a nice sweet taste they have not tried it. To save the lives of these inquisitive cats almost all antifreeze now has an additive (Bitrex?) and has done for many years and this makes it taste absolutely disgusting.

 

I suspect the general consensus for disposal is to flush it down the bog in small quantities. Its not good stuff but not bad enough to justify the local tip providing facilities for properly disposing of it.

 

...............Dave

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44 minutes ago, dmr said:

almost all antifreeze now has an additive (Bitrex?)

Yes, Bitrex. “The most bitter flavour known to man” according to a promotional video I edited back in the early 90’s. 

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4 hours ago, dmr said:

Can't face reading this entire thread, but there looks to be some confusion.

Almost all antifreeze is Ethylene Glycol, the pink colour (or purple or whatever) indicates the chemistry of the anti-rust additive, so the pink stuff is not really any less toxic than the blue stuff etc.

I always thought that it was mostly cats that died from drinking antifreeze as they wonder free and explore and so are more likely to find the drip tray in the garage!

If anybody thinks antifreeze has a nice sweet taste they have not tried it. To save the lives of these inquisitive cats almost all antifreeze now has an additive (Bitrex?) and has done for many years and this makes it taste absolutely disgusting.

 

I suspect the general consensus for disposal is to flush it down the bog in small quantities. Its not good stuff but not bad enough to justify the local tip providing facilities for properly disposing of it.

 

...............Dave

The problem that I'd have is, guessing by how much I drained out (and put back) when I changed the water pump a couple of years ago, it wouldn't be small quantities, as a rough guesstimate I'd say there is going to be something of the order of about 50 litres of the stuff at 50% concentration. The 'bogs' that I tip my stuff into are CRT sanitary stations, a lot of which operate by cesspits so whether I stand and tip small quantities into the Elsan point and flush, or tip the whole lot in at once becomes largely academic since the whole lot will end out in the cesspit. Whilst I realise that toxicity is related to concentration so as long as something is diluted enough it is no longer toxic, I don't know what concentration of the stuff would bugger up the aerobic treatment at the sewage works.

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1 minute ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The problem that I'd have is, guessing by how much I drained out (and put back) when I changed the water pump a couple of years ago, it wouldn't be small quantities, as a rough guesstimate I'd say there is going to be something of the order of about 50 litres of the stuff at 50% concentration. The 'bogs' that I tip my stuff into are CRT sanitary stations, a lot of which operate by cesspits so whether I stand and tip small quantities into the Elsan point and flush, or tip the whole lot in at once becomes largely academic since the whole lot will end out in the cesspit. Whilst I realise that toxicity is related to concentration so as long as something is diluted enough it is no longer toxic, I don't know what concentration of the stuff would bugger up the aerobic treatment at the sewage works.

I should have mentioned cesspits...several sites on the www suggest flushing it down the bog as long as it is NOT draining into a cesspit. The British drainage system uses a single route for both sewage and surface water (probably its biggest limitation) so all sorts of stuff goes through the sewage works anyway.

 

I believe a lot of boaters try to use pub toilets rather than the boat so just take a litre of antifreeze with you on your next 50 pub visits ? .

 

...........Dave

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54 minutes ago, dmr said:

I should have mentioned cesspits...several sites on the www suggest flushing it down the bog as long as it is NOT draining into a cesspit. The British drainage system uses a single route for both sewage and surface water (probably its biggest limitation) so all sorts of stuff goes through the sewage works anyway.

 

I believe a lot of boaters try to use pub toilets rather than the boat so just take a litre of antifreeze with you on your next 50 pub visits ? .

 

...........Dave

Cesspits, I went to a talk last night from the EA and there they said a cesspit should be emptied every 12 months, I didn't like to tell him mine has not been done for over 12 years

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17 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Cesspits, I went to a talk last night from the EA and there they said a cesspit should be emptied every 12 months, I didn't like to tell him mine has not been done for over 12 years

Is yours a cesspit? or a septic tank? I wouldn't be surprised if a septic tank hadn't been emptied in that time, but if a cesspit hasn't been emptied I can only guess that you make your 'bathroom' visits when away from home;)

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6 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Is yours a cesspit? or a septic tank? I wouldn't be surprised if a septic tank hadn't been emptied in that time, but if a cesspit hasn't been emptied I can only guess that you make your 'bathroom' visits when away from home;)

I may have used the wrong terminology

 

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On 26/11/2018 at 22:35, dor said:

 

ETA: I'm not convinced the heavy lumps of cast iron we call engines really suffer that much from corrosion, but the central heating system will.

 

What about heavy lumps of cast iron with lighter lumps of aluminium bolted to them? Wouldn't there be some galvanic action going on without antifreeze/corrosion inhibitor? There are gaskets between the two metals I suppose but unless you're sure they're not electrically conductive I don't think it's worth taking the chance. The bolts would probably connect the metals anyway.

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On 28/11/2018 at 12:01, catweasel said:

Regarding the Fernox mentioned in a couple of posts; is this the ordinary fernox product that I used to bung in the C/H header tank when I had a house? What ratiodoes one add to the engine cooling system?

Many thanks.

I've just bought a 500ml bottle of Fernox F1 Protector for my central heating system. It treats a 100 litre system so that's 0.5%. Although it's not designed for engines at that % I can't see there being an antifreeze compatibility issue. The only thing it says to avoid on the bottle is "Not for use in single feed indirect cylinders" (whatever they are?)

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3 hours ago, blackrose said:

I've just bought a 500ml bottle of Fernox F1 Protector for my central heating system. It treats a 100 litre system so that's 0.5%. Although it's not designed for engines at that % I can't see there being an antifreeze compatibility issue. The only thing it says to avoid on the bottle is "Not for use in single feed indirect cylinders" (whatever they are?)

Single feed HW cylinders have an expansion pipe inside the tank that connects with the main hot water.  Thus they only need a single header tank feed, as the heating circuit and hot water are effectively connected.  Don't ask how I discovered this...

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7 hours ago, blackrose said:

I've just bought a 500ml bottle of Fernox F1 Protector for my central heating system. It treats a 100 litre system so that's 0.5%. Although it's not designed for engines at that % I can't see there being an antifreeze compatibility issue. The only thing it says to avoid on the bottle is "Not for use in single feed indirect cylinders" (whatever they are?)

I'm sure there won't be an antifreeze compatibility issue, but what about the inhibitors?  Had you bought the domestic heating antifreeze and inhibitor combined (not sure if Fernox do one, but others do) you'd have been absolutely certain which inhibitor to add to your system next time to avoid any potential compatibility issues. I did exactly this a few weeks ago following reading other threads here - is it too late to do that?

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There are reports of inhibitor incompatibilities when mixing the new "OAT" antifreezes with the old blue stuff, and this results in a nasty sludge forming in the cooling system.

I think (but not sure) that this only applies to the "first generation" of OAT antifreeze. I don't know what chemistry is used in Fernox.

 

A few automotive antifreezes have additional additives to reduce cylinder liner cavitation. It is possible to buy "additive topups" to extend the life of automotive antifreeze.

 

...............Dave

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