Increasing our fresh water supply

[jetzi]

22 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My accumulator charges with about 1 litre of water each time my pump cycles (about once a day). So if you have an accumulator like mne this suggests about one litre of water every ten minutes is being withdrawn from your tank, in addition to all your normal domestic use. That's six litres an hour, 144 litres a day. 2,000 litres a fortnight!

 

SO I suspect you don't have a working accumulator, but even so, that one pump-run every ten minutes will still be the result of a substantial leak somewhere. Try an experiment for a two weeks. Fill the tank then turn the pump OFF. Turn the pump ON only when you are actually drawing water for shower, washing up etc. After two weeks you'd expect the tank to be empty, yes? I bet it isn't and you'll be able to continue for for much longer before eventually running out. If correct, this will illustrate you really do have a water leak somewhere. And vice versa obviously. 

 

Interesting. I've just timed it now with nothing but the dripping kitchen tap, and has been a whole hour without cycling. It does happen sometimes but clearly not as bad as every 10 minutes - it was a guess as I haven't thought about how often it flipped on up to now. Sorry for the misinformation!

 

9 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

 Unless the non return valves in the pump are shot, you have a leak somewhere. Your pump should never run unless you draw water or your calorifier is cooling down.

Check the PRV on the calorifier and where it discharges.

 

You have a stainless tank?  If so how can you cut an inspection hole, and why would you want to? The stainless tank in the bow wastes a lot of space around it, with a tank that is just the whole bow it  would hold a lot more, ours holds 1500 litres so weight is not a significant problem, it does lift the stern a bit but the boat swims better with the bow weighed down anyway.

If it is stainless why not drink it? We have done for 20 years out of a bitumen painted bow tank and we are healthy ( but daft ).

We do have the dripping kitchen tap, without that being fixed I can't know if that is the only source of pressure drop causing the pump to cycle.

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't know what a PRV on the calorifier is. There is a kind of "cistern" mounted high above the interior insulated hot water tank, which has an overflow outlet leading outside the boat. I have never seen or heard the water run through this, though. Here's a pic of the hot water tank and some of the piping, including the cistern thing and the outlet pipes:

 

@Boater Sam  1500 litres!! I'm so jealous!

 

I don't know whether it's a stainless tank. I think it might occupy the whole bow area, I'm not sure how to tell. I just measured the deck (excluding the gas locker). It's 2000 along the long (aft) edge, 1600 along the short (fore) edge and 1420 between the edges. My dowel descends 430 from the deck to the bottom of the water tank. Approximating that as a rectangle makes 1800x1420x430, or 1100 litres ? One thing I noticed after measuring directly after the first time I filled up, is the wet mark only seemed to go up to 300mm above the bottom of the tank, so perhaps the top of the tank is not in line with the deck, but lower? Even so, this is still 766 litres. So I would conclude from this that there must be a lining tank inside the box. If that's the case, perhaps the simple thing to do would be to remove it, seal the hull and therefore utilise that entire space!?

 

I'll fill up tomorrow and try to take better measurements to confirm all this.

 

We don't need to drink the water as we keep 30 litres aside in bottles for that. I have drunk the water from the tank though, and it tastes fine to me.

 

Here's a pic of our accumulator and water pump, I replaced the pump recently as it was leaking out of the seal. We keep the tap closed most of the time but it's a bit of a pain as it's not that accessible.

 

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

Interesting. I've just timed it now with nothing but the dripping kitchen tap, and has been a whole hour without cycling. It does happen sometimes but clearly not as bad as every 10 minutes - it was a guess as I haven't thought about how often it flipped on up to now. Sorry for the misinformation!

 

We do have the dripping kitchen tap, without that being fixed I can't know if that is the only source of pressure drop causing the pump to cycle.

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't know what a PRV on the calorifier is. There is a kind of "cistern" mounted high above the interior insulated hot water tank, which has an overflow outlet leading outside the boat. I have never seen or heard the water run through this, though. Here's a pic of the hot water tank and some of the piping, including the cistern thing and the outlet pipes:

 

@Boater Sam  1500 litres!! I'm so jealous!

 

I don't know whether it's a stainless tank. I think it might occupy the whole bow area, I'm not sure how to tell. I just measured the deck (excluding the gas locker). It's 2000 along the long (aft) edge, 1600 along the short (fore) edge and 1420 between the edges. My dowel descends 430 from the deck to the bottom of the water tank. Approximating that as a rectangle makes 1800x1420x430, or 1100 litres ? One thing I noticed after measuring directly after the first time I filled up, is the wet mark only seemed to go up to 300mm above the bottom of the tank, so perhaps the top of the tank is not in line with the deck, but lower? Even so, this is still 766 litres. So I would conclude from this that there must be a lining tank inside the box. If that's the case, perhaps the simple thing to do would be to remove it, seal the hull and therefore utilise that entire space!?

 

I'll fill up tomorrow and try to take better measurements to confirm all this.

 

We don't need to drink the water as we keep 30 litres aside in bottles for that. I have drunk the water from the tank though, and it tastes fine to me.

 

Here's a pic of our accumulator and water pump, I replaced the pump recently as it was leaking out of the seal. We keep the tap closed most of the time but it's a bit of a pain as it's not that accessible.

 

I would have flexible pipe each side of the pump to keep the strain down.

 

[MtB]

25 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

But they have a dripping kitchen tap. Until that is fixed it is unknown if they have a leak.

 

I discounted that because what Ivan actually wrote was:

 

"Our kitchen tap drips some but we do catch this water with a bottle - we catch about 5 litres every 2 days from this. There is also always a bit of dribble after turning off a tap, I think this is just a consequence of the low pressure system. We also turn the mains tap off at night and whenever we leave the boat."

 

I thought 5 litres every two days trivial, won't be making a pump run every ten minutes (as originally stated) and we are looking for a FAR larger loss of water.

 

 

 

 

I see there is an accumulator fitted, although it may not work as the pressure test valve is against the woodwork so it can't be serviced without removing it.

 

A PRV = pressure relief valve.

 

Typically looks like this:

 

[Athy]

3 hours ago, Jess-- said:

 

 

 

I do know some on here only use the tank water for washing, anything for food / drink they use bottled water

We are of that number - washing and washing up, anyway.

[Tumshie]

5 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

3. Purifying canal water somehow?! Wouldn't have to be very pure for use for washing right? It would have to be a low energy system, I'm not sure what's available but it could be a good solution if it's feasible.

Nothing on gods green earth could convince me to drink canal water but the people who invented the Life Straw have a good reputation in places where people only have access to very dirty water. I'm not suggesting that you get a Life Straw set up cos that would just be over kill and very expensive (though maybe less expensive than fitting a new water tank) but but as a point of interest and to see what it would take here's a link.....   

 

https://www.lifestraw.com

[Rebotco]

I would have thought it unreasonable to expect to carry around 2 weeks supply of water on most narrowboats.

We are only leisure boaters and with 2 or 3 people on board we need to refill at least once a week, and we have a similar size integral tank.

Surely its possible to select mooring spots within easy reach of a water point most of the time?

Also give you a little jaunt out once a week - so long as no one has nicked your mooring in the meantime! ?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tumshie said:

Nothing on gods green earth could convince me to drink canal water but the people who invented the Life Straw have a good reputation in places where people only have access to very dirty water. I'm not suggesting that you get a Life Straw set up cos that would just be over kill and very expensive (though maybe less expensive than fitting a new water tank) but but as a point of interest and to see what it would take here's a link.....   

 

https://www.lifestraw.com

I actually use a 'Sawyer' water filter when out walking and the water is 'clean' (mountain streams etc). I would not consider using Canal water full of not only all sorts of nasties, but petroleum based contamination which cannot be removed by filtering. I have added a 'carbon filter' which helps to remove 'taste'.

 

The Sawyer MINI Water Filter is rated to 0.1 micron absolute, weighs only 2 ounces, and filters up to 100,000 gallons of water! The MINI can be attached to the included collapsible drinking pouch, inline on a hydration pack, on a standard soda bottle, or simply use the included drinking straw to drink directly from the water source. How is that for versatility? Like all Sawyer filters, a proper backwashing can restore up to 98.5% of the filter’s flow rate. That means no expensive cartridges to replace, ever...

* Ideal for outdoor recreation, hiking, camping, scouting, domestic and international travel and emergency preparedness...

* The MINI removes 99.99999% of all bacteria, such as salmonella, cholera and E.coli; removes 99.9999% of all protozoa, such as giardia and cryptosporidium...

* High performance filter fits in the palm of your hand, weighs 2 ounces and filters up to 100,000 gallons (30 times more than comparable filters)...

* Attaches to included drinking pouch, standard disposable bottles (28 mm thread), hydration packs, or use the straw to drink directly from your water source...

Features:
Genuine Sawyer Product
Reliable & Easy To Use
Ultra Lightweight & Compact
Filters Up To 100,000 Gallons Of Water!
Brand New & Clam Packed
Made In The USA

Kit Contents:
1 x Sawyer MINI Water Filter with Tip Cap
1 x 16oz Reusable Squeeze Pouch
1 x Cleaning Plunger (Syringe)
1 x 7" Drinking Straw

Size - 10cm x 3.5cm (Approx.)

 

 

[Tumshie]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I actually use a 'Sawyer' water filter when out walking and the water is 'clean' (mountain streams etc). I would not consider using Canal water full of not only all sorts of nasties, but petroleum based contamination which cannot be removed by filtering. I have added a 'carbon filter' which helps to remove 'taste'.

That looks an impressive piece of kit but like you I still don't think I'd drink canal through it. ?

Edited November 24, 2018 by Tumshie

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Rebotco said:

I would have thought it unreasonable to expect to carry around 2 weeks supply of water on most narrowboats.

We are only leisure boaters and with 2 or 3 people on board we need to refill at least once a week, and we have a similar size integral tank.

Surely its possible to select mooring spots within easy reach of a water point most of the time?

Also give you a little jaunt out once a week - so long as no one has nicked your mooring in the meantime! ?

Look at the OPs stated location!! ? until they escape the hovel known as London niceties such as choosing a mooring may well not be possible?

[Momac]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Look at the OPs stated location!! ? until they escape the hovel known as London niceties such as choosing a mooring may well not be possible?

Don't they have drinking water out of a tap in London?

If the boat cannot be moved easily I am guessing it is not too difficult to  move some water to the boat?

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/3565913?cmpid=GS001&_$ja=tsid:59156|acid:444-797-0832|cid:189949525|agid:18091974325|tid:aud-144400486596:pla-118970796565|crid:77627773765|nw:g|rnd:17641292433080099815|dvc:c|adp:1o5|mt:|loc:1006944&gclid=CjwKCAiAiuTfBRAaEiwA4itUqE4DgYEEtdYZvLi7d4f7Tsahi-OEGp1xJnjO1pS43IACDqxf8h-zExoCmu8QAvD_BwE

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

36 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Don't they have drinking water out of a tap in London?

A year or two ago, there was only (allegedly) one water tap available.

Much discussion as to if it was C&RTs attempt to reduce the number of boats in the 'smoke'.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A year or two ago, there was only (allegedly) one water tap available.

There are lots of taps up here so perhaps that make us more civilised/advanced ?

 

The C&RT map indaces at least three water points on canals in London and plenty of other facilities where there is presumably a water supply. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by MartynG
.

[Alan de Enfield]

43 minutes ago, MartynG said:

There are lots of taps up here so perhaps that make us more civilised/advanced ?

 

The C&RT map indaces at least three water points on canals in London and plenty of other facilities where there is presumably a water supply. 

I guess even 3 taps between 4001 (2017 figure) boats may be considered insufficient.

 

2017 C&RT Report :

 

The national boat count also paints a picture of the changing numbers of boats across the country.
The Trust’s waterways in London have seen an increase of 339 boats – an increase of over 9% –
with numbers in the central East, the South West and the South East regions also rising. Boat
numbers in the North, North Wales and Midlands have seen a slight drop.
Jon continued: “The popularity of the boating lifestyle in London remains high. Congestion aside it
also puts a lot of pressure on the Capital’s 200-year old waterways: the facilities are seeing more
use than ever before. It’s a challenge to meet the demands of this soaring growth but we are

working with boaters, other stakeholders and canal users to develop a strategy that will help
identify ways to address some of the challenges that it presents. We want the Capital’s waterways
to work for all the boaters who know and love them.”

 

Of which 5.5% in London and 4.9% in the South West are unlicensed, by comparison, those 'naughty Midlanders' come in at 2.5% unlicensed (C&RT enforcement figures)

Edited November 24, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess even 3 taps between 4001 (2017 figure) boats may be considered insufficient.

4000 boats? Can any boats move at all?

When in Greece  (on holiday) we took on water at one port from a tanker  (at a price). Maybe that service is wanted in London?

[jetzi]

8 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would have flexible pipe each side of the pump to keep the strain down.

Will keep that in mind next time I fiddle with the water supply ?

 

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I see there is an accumulator fitted, although it may not work as the pressure test valve is against the woodwork so it can't be serviced without removing it.

Interesting, what servicing does the accumulator need? Is there any way of knowing whether or not it's working?

 

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

A PRV = pressure relief valve. 

Thanks for the tip, I can't see one of these easily accessible but I'll poke around a bit more when I get a chance.

 

6 hours ago, Rebotco said:

I would have thought it unreasonable to expect to carry around 2 weeks supply of water on most narrowboats. 

We are only leisure boaters and with 2 or 3 people on board we need to refill at least once a week, and we have a similar size integral tank.

Surely its possible to select mooring spots within easy reach of a water point most of the time?

Also give you a little jaunt out once a week - so long as no one has nicked your mooring in the meantime! ?

Unreasonable meaning that it can't be done? I'm wondering about the extra weight on the boat, but it would improve our quality of life to have at least two weeks of water supply, otherwise we're always facing running out of water. I do intend to fill up whenever we move but there are numerous reasons why we would not be able to - perhaps the tap is out of order, perhaps there's a queue, perhaps we're ill, perhaps the canals are frozen, perhaps the zombies are coming... I just would like the security of knowing that we have two solid weeks of water available when we're full.

 

6 hours ago, Tumshie said:

Nothing on gods green earth could convince me to drink canal water

 

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I actually use a 'Sawyer' water filter when out walking

So, we'd not be _drinking_ the filtered water. Drinking water is the least of our problems! But for washing ourselves, our dishes and our boat it would be nice to access a practically limitless supply of water. Hence a "good enough" filter - perhaps a swimming pool filter? - might make it clean enough for showers. I would guess that power consumption would then become the limiting factor, though.

 

 

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Look at the OPs stated location!! ? until they escape the hovel known as London niceties such as choosing a mooring may well not be possible?

Our experience cruising in London has so far been OK, the only spot we wanted to stop where there was no space was Angel - everywhere else we managed to squeeze in, even in our 65'er. That said, the canals are pretty full, and that may not be the case soon enough if the number of boaters continues to grow. Being winter there might be a bit more space than usual since some people are holed up in winter moorings, but we should be out of London by the time summer comes. We're in Hackney now slowly heading up to Bishops Stortford and Hertford, then we'll turn around, back through London and up the Grand Union.

 

51 minutes ago, MartynG said:

There are lots of taps up here so perhaps that make us more civilised/advanced ?

 

The C&RT map indaces at least three water points on canals in London and plenty of other facilities where there is presumably a water supply. 

We've filled up at three different water points in London so far so I'm certain there are plenty more en route. Unfortunately we've found the CaRT map to be quite inaccurate, so we're mostly relying on word of mouth when it comes to finding the next one.

 

I've gone and ordered 6x 25 litre stackable water containers, 30 quid for an extra 30% capacity (4 extra days) and has the advantage that we can put them on our trolley and wheel them up the towpath in a pinch. We'll live with this situation for a few more months and I'll look into the possibility and costs of installing a second tank in the meantime.

 

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Interesting, what servicing does the accumulator need? Is there any way of knowing whether or not it's working?

 

Yes. The gas pressure in the accumulator needs checking periodically. Typically once a year. If the gas pressure is correct and no water (as opposed to air or nitrogen) issues from the valve when testing, it is working. 

 

Test the gas pressure with a car tyre pressure gauge, on the valve hard up against the wood in your photo. 

 

(The charge pressure should be roughly the same as the switch-off pressure of the pump. Typically 1 bar or a little higher, and measured with the pump OFF and the taps open.)

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit.

[Tumshie]

11 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

6 hours ago, Tumshie said:

Nothing on gods green earth could convince me to drink canal water

 

? You quoted and answered every body else exempt me - you quoted me and said nothing......  ? I know, you're not drinking it, I just thought it might be of interest. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Tumshie

[MtB]

Just now, Tumshie said:

? You quoted and answered every body else exempt me - you quoted me and said nothing......  ? I know, your not drinking it, I just thought it might be of interest. 

 

There there, never mind.... have a hug 

 

OI STOP CHEWING MY ARM

[Tumshie]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

There there, never mind.... have a hug 

Thank you - I'm just feeling sorry for my self.... 

[ditchcrawler]

Good information on Accumulator tanks here https://www.jabscoshop.com/files/Accumulator and Expansion Tank Instructions ZPWL4 doc595.pdf

[Tumshie]

Are flexible water tanks any use in Ivan's case?

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

OI STOP CHEWING MY ARM

But it sooooo tasty. 

[MtB]

LET GO NOW

 

DO I HAVE TO SQUEEZE YOUR NOSE AGAIN?????

[jetzi]

9 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

? You quoted and answered every body else exempt me - you quoted me and said nothing......  ? I know, you're not drinking it, I just thought it might be of interest. 

Sorry Tumsh! Since you and @Alan de Enfield had a similar bit of advice I quoted you together and answered you together. I appreciated the link, it was interesting! I have heard of such a filter being demonstrated by the CEO of the company drinking his own urine through it!

 

 

[Lysander]

19 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

. Hence a "good enough" filter - perhaps a swimming pool filter? - might make it clean enough for showers. I would guess that power consumption would then become the limiting factor, though.

 

 

A swimming pool filter?! ? You jest surely. Here is just one of the filters from the main pool where I once worked - and there were three of them. They were the size of a small room.

[Tumshie]

3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Sorry Tumsh! Since you and @Alan de Enfield had a similar bit of advice I quoted you together and answered you together. I appreciated the link, it was interesting! I have heard of such a filter being demonstrated by the CEO of the company drinking his own urine through it!

Thank you - I really was just joking, I didn't mean to make you feel bad. ?